TrueBlueGED Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Jonathan Willis @JonathanWillis 3m3 minutes ago LRT: Intimate knowledge of a team is a double-edged sword. Sometimes, you know where to find bargains. Other times, you fixate. Good way of putting it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3putt Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 you cannot possibly be serious with this comment he mostly likely he is not but if someone offers you a Hasek clone you give up multiple 1st rd picks. The guy won games by himself All this being said. Love the complete over reaction by the armchair fans. We are stocked with prospects and the #21 pick was used to get us a real starting goaltender. Whine all you want about it but it was a solid move and I'm sure there are more to come But he didn't win the shiny trophy until he had a 7 or 8 HOFer's in front of him. I don't overvalue the goalie position and tend to undervalue it. I certainly would not pay what Murray paid to a division rival to lessen their cap burden, give them the 18 and now 21 picks and allow them to lock up the rest of their young talent. Lack would have been sufficient at the cost of #51. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 I absolutely hated the value when I heard about this trade. Now that it has settled in that we aren't getting another piece, I still don't like it, but I understand it. I think GMTM was trying to trade up into the top 10/15 using #21, cause that's where I speculate he sees the talent cutoff. Since he couldn't find anyone willing to dance, he shifted to the mindset that #21 is roughly equal to #31 in terms of the player he will get. GMTM has been very focused on targeting young players already in the NHL in the 23-25yr old range, so that they all peak in the same year(s) for a cup run. Lehner fits perfectly in the time frame with our other guys (Kane, Bogo, Risto, Zemgus etc.). Now we can certainly argue that Lehner won't turn out to be as good as GMTM thinks, but he is the right age, right stage of development and cost controlled (RFA in 2 yrs). Those are all good things to prevent a cap issue in the future and allow him to grow into the team. Still think it is poor value but the player fits the blueprint of what I think we are trying to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Jonathan Willis @JonathanWillis 3m3 minutes ago LRT: Intimate knowledge of a team is a double-edged sword. Sometimes, you know where to find bargains. Other times, you fixate. Good way of putting it. Yup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samson's Flow Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Tim Murray: "If you'd have told me we'd end up w Eichel, Kane and Lehner for 3 first round picks, I'd have said you were high on mushrooms." I think you are high mushrooms Timmy. Regardless of what you think of the trade, you have to love GMTM for his off-the-cuff quotes :beer: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3putt Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 I just replied to your post that Hasek isn't worth 21st pick . That statement is ridiculous regardless of this trade. How many cups did Hasek win in a Sabres uniform? and if makes you feel better replace Hasek with Ryan Miller same result. It is not so much that we got a goalie who could be a HOFer, who knows, it is that with all the chips at his disposal he helps a division rival out of bind improves their draft options, takes on a dead salary and dead weight and probably could have gotten the equivalent from Vancouver or in FA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z-man Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Tim Murray: "If you'd have told me we'd end up w Eichel, Kane and Lehner for 3 first round picks, I'd have said you were high on mushrooms." I think you are high mushrooms Timmy. Love this quote. Also, does this mean he viewed Bogosian as an upgrade to Myers? I think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcsaberks Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Goalies who've won the Jack A Butterfield Trophy (Calder Cup playoff MVP) 93-94 - Olaf Kolzig 04-05 - Antero Nittymaki 05-06 - Carey Price 08-09 - Michal Neuvirth 10-11 - Robin Lehner Edited June 26, 2015 by bcSaberks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 I'm willing to be proven wrong. Not crazy about using a 1st round pick on him but we'll see. He does seem like a real hard ass which I like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Warning: the following link comes with a huuuuuuuuuuuuge sample size warning and will not make you feel better about this trade, but Freeman requested some fancystats, so here you go: http://ingoalmag.com/news/determining-goalie-value-to-new-teams-by-danger-zone/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3putt Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 I believed in them to complete the tank. Did you? Neuvirth had to be jettisoned to be safe. He could have been had without giving any advantage to the Sens or anyone else in FA. In light of the market we overpaid for someone TM fixated on when all conditions indicated it was a buyers market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
... Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) So, how many centres do the Sabres have now? I am hoping this means Murray has something else going that gets us back into the first round. Edited June 26, 2015 by SiZzlEmeIsTEr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) How many cups did Hasek win in a Sabres uniform? and if makes you feel better replace Hasek with Ryan Miller same result. It is not so much that we got a goalie who could be a HOFer, who knows, it is that with all the chips at his disposal he helps a division rival out of bind improves their draft options, takes on a dead salary and dead weight and probably could have gotten the equivalent from Vancouver or in FA. Except he didn't think he could get the equivalent from Vancouver and NYR. That's your opinion, not his. He's building his team. He didn't have his goalie. He got his goalie. He got a goalie who is talented, with a track record. He is also affordable and young enough to get better and will be a controlled asset for another five years. The ideal goalie for this team would have been Vasilevskiy or Gibson. Lehner fits the same profile. Edited June 26, 2015 by dudacek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kruppstahl Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 I knew we wouldn't use 21 as a pick at that spot, but I didn't think it would be this! First clearly defined misstep by Murray during his tenure as GM in my opinion. I just found out about this by visiting WGR550.com. Saw the "BREAKING NEWS" banner and genuinely thought it was the guys playing a "April Fools" type goofy joke for a moment...they have been goofy and giddy for a few days now with the draft, the Eichel mania, etc. Hmmm. Watching the draft tonight just became less necessary. May go out with friends. We know who we will take #2 anyway. The lower picks don't excite me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 If it had been Vasilevkiy, I would have been thrilled. Lehner... meh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 I think so. Look at the goalie trade market in recent years. Also, even we managed to put three goalies on the ice last year who had better save percentages and one about the same as Lehner. According to the Hockey News, Ottawa HAD to trade Lehner or Anderson given their $ situation and other goalies in their system. They also needed to unload a contract like Legwand's. After characterizing the trade as an "obvious win" for Ottawa, the Hockey News' closing comment: "But the first-round pick… yikes. Considering how badly the Sens needed to move Lehner, and how much removing Legwand helps their finances, shouldn’t Buffalo have had a bit more leverage here?" http://www.thehockeynews.com/blog/senators-trade-lehner-legwand-to-sabres-bryan-murray-continues-to-win-the-off-season/ I REALLY hope I am wrong about this trade, but I think we gave up too much given today's goalie market and the leverage we had with Ottawa. My two cents - Murray the elder won this deal. you could say the same thing about the Kane deal. The Jets wanted him out of their lockerroom, they also wanted players to help them make the playoffs last season. Very few teams outside of Buffalo could give them players who could help now for someone who wouldn't play til the next sEason. In most cases that would mean Buffalo should have had a ton of leverage and yet they gave up more then they should have. I have never understood the man crush for Murray around here, he seems like a total pick but I guess that's what they like about him. I actually don't mind the deal. They got a goalie who aside from maybe Lack, is a guy who has the potetial to be the franchise starter for years for a crap shoot lottery ticket that may amount to nothing. Everyone is so in love with picks and prospects. No team is ever built a winner using only their own draft picked players from a few year period. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny DangerFace Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 If it had been Vasilevkiy, I would have been thrilled. Lehner... meh Lehner's value is faaaaaar closer to #21 than Vasilevski is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddaryl Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) But he didn't win the shiny trophy until he had a 7 or 8 HOFer's in front of him. I don't overvalue the goalie position and tend to undervalue it. I certainly would not pay what Murray paid to a division rival to lessen their cap burden, give them the 18 and now 21 picks and allow them to lock up the rest of their young talent. Lack would have been sufficient at the cost of #51. he was the ONLY reason Buffalo went to the cup that one year. Its not Haseks fault our previous owner was too cheap to surround him with more talent Yes you use a 1st rd pick on a Hasek, and you don't bat an eye.. The more I see people complain the better I love this trade. Edited June 26, 2015 by ddaryl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 I might be the only poster here happy with this trade. So this is what it is like to be PA. :P I'm with you. I don't hate this trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny DangerFace Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 The one cool thing everyone should agree on is that this clearly shows we plan to compete next year. Instead of waiting 3-4 years for late 1st round prospect to develop we went and got a starting goalie. I still think the value is off, but still interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 (edited) Given both Murray's comments, it looks like the offer was 31 for Lehner/Legwand. Bryan Murray didn't want to make the deal in the division and was holding out for a team in the west to match that. Tim Murray decided the player we drafted at 21 would be around the same level as the player we took at 31 and decided to up the ante. Edited June 26, 2015 by dudacek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: when i first read this waking up. Then i took a shower and thought, If Lehner turns out to be our #1 goalie for the next ten years this is good deal and we are out of overpaying for RoR rumours. Then i was thinking, with #18 and #21 and the capspace we gave a division rival, Ottawa can now go after RoR :sick: To make it worse I'm now thinking what A list prospects murray will give up for RoR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny DangerFace Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 :sick: :sick: :sick: :sick: when i first read this waking up. Then i took a shower and thought, If Lehner turns out to be our #1 goalie for the next ten years this is good deal and we are out of overpaying for RoR rumours. Then i was thinking, with #18 and #21 and the capspace we gave a division rival, Ottawa can now go after RoR :sick: To make it worse I'm now thinking what A list prospects murray will give up for RoR. I think lehner coming back to bite Ottawa is more likely than that #21 prospect coming back to bite us :beer: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 Given Murray's comments, it looks like the offer was 31 for Lehner/Legwand. Bryan Murray didn't want to make the deal in the division and was holding out for a team in the west to match that. Tim Murray decided the player we drafted at 21 would be around the same level as the player we took at 31 and decided to up the ante. Truth be told, I hated being at 21 in this draft. But I thought Buffalo had the Ammo to move up. I'm thinking now that Buffalo didn't. I'm not disappointed in Lehner, but I had my sights on things higher than #21. All in all, I'm okay with it, not thrilled, but okay with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apuszczalowski Posted June 26, 2015 Report Share Posted June 26, 2015 But he didn't win the shiny trophy until he had a 7 or 8 HOFer's in front of him. I don't overvalue the goalie position and tend to undervalue it. I certainly would not pay what Murray paid to a division rival to lessen their cap burden, give them the 18 and now 21 picks and allow them to lock up the rest of their young talent. Lack would have been sufficient at the cost of #51.but your assuming you could get Lack for just that one pick. Hasek single handedly carried Sabres teams that would have been lucky to hit double digit wins if not for him. Just because he couldn't win a championship with them and finally did when on a very good team doesn't mean goaltenders are a dime a dozen. There are a bunch of good teams out there that are still looking for a good goaltender to get them to contender status. Do you think the Kings win a cup without Quick? Do you think Montreal makes the playoffs without Price? Teams stacked at other positions may be able to win without a superstar goaltender, but more often then not teams without a very good one aren't going far. Given both Murray's comments, it looks like the offer was 31 for Lehner/Legwand. Bryan Murray didn't want to make the deal in the division and was holding out for a team in the west to match that. Tim Murray decided the player we drafted at 21 would be around the same level as the player we took at 31 and decided to up the ante. he paid a premium to make a trade in the same division... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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