dudacek Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 (edited) A late first isn't the equivalent of Theodore. Values of picks change almost immediately after their first camp with a team (see Hudson Fasching - a fourth traded for McNabb and two seconds the year he was drafted). Foligno has little value. Franson has little value. Larsson has little value. It's scraps from a bad team for a good prospect on a good team who has tough cap management coming for their back end. This smacks of hockey's future to me, where every teams fourth best prospect suddenly becomes a sure-fire top six player in the eyes of his fan base until he has a Tyler Ennis career and all of a sudden no one wants him. Real GMs assign different value based on circumstance, but generally real players are usually worth more than prospects, especially ones with some contract certainty. If Bob Murray thinks Theodore is a budding Risto, he has no reason to move him. If he thinks he's JAG why not improve your team. For every Fasching there is a Sven Baertschi. Fransons do get traded for first rounders. 6'4 10-goal scorers who can skate, hit and throw 'em like Foligno have value, no matter how tired the local fan base gets. Drew Stafford's get paid $4 million. Edited February 16, 2016 by dudacek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 There's been plenty of talk about Anaheim unloading either Fowler or Lindholm due to contract status. Maybe it's one of them instead of Theodore? And really, what's become of us? Dudacek goes tramping around on another board, brings back someone's cousin's inside source, and we all eagerly jump for the scraps? Pathetic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 (edited) There's been plenty of talk about Anaheim unloading either Fowler or Lindholm due to contract status. Maybe it's one of them instead of Theodore? And really, what's become of us? Dudacek goes tramping around on another board, brings back someone's cousin's inside source, and we all eagerly jump for the scraps? Pathetic. I wouldn't have to go tramping if you started treating me with respect you used to.What's happened to us freeman? I just want things back to the way they used to be. Edited February 16, 2016 by dudacek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 A late first isn't the equivalent of Theodore. Values of picks change almost immediately after their first camp with a team (see Hudson Fasching - a fourth traded for McNabb and two seconds the year he was drafted). Foligno has little value. Franson has little value. Larsson has little value. It's scraps from a bad team for a good prospect on a good team who has tough cap management coming for their back end. I have been meaning to address this for awhile. You are way off on Foligno's value. He's not one of those guys here just because of his connection to the past, as I have heard you say before. He is still young enough and shows enough flashes to intrigue people who think he can be a legitimate top six forward. Not sure he will develop that way but he has value because of the chance he does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rasmus_ Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 CHICAGO Top priority: First-line left winger Scoop: GM Stan Bowman is believed to be on the prowl for a top line component to play with Jonathan Toews and Marian Hossa. Can you imagine Ennis on that line? It would be sick. Ennis for Pokka, McNeil and a 2nd. The more I think about Franson/Theodore, Girgs or Reinhart fills the Larsson hole at Centre, Fasching and Bailey skates into the open forward spots. Foligno and Larsson are young enough and cost-controlled enough that the Ducks can add a second or a Bailey-esque prospect. We pay a lot for a prospect but Theodore fits our need perfectly. Both teams get better relative to where they are, $ work. It think we have something here boys. It's a hockey trade. Call the Murrays. Theodore would be a great fit in our top four both now and long term. The perfect type of young puck moving defensemen that can help you the rest of the way, or to just continue getting his reps in the A. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 I have been meaning to address this for awhile. You are way off on Foligno's value. He's not one of those guys here just because of his connection to the past, as I have heard you say before. He is still young enough and shows enough flashes to intrigue people who think he can be a legitimate top six forward. Not sure he will develop that way but he has value because of the chance he does. I used to think this but he's settled pretty comfortably into a bottom 6 role. I'd be socked if he's every anything more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 I used to think this but he's settled pretty comfortably into a bottom 6 role. I'd be socked if he's every anything more. I'm with you, but I can easily see NHL GMs latching onto the flashes of better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 I have been meaning to address this for awhile. You are way off on Foligno's value. He's not one of those guys here just because of his connection to the past, as I have heard you say before. He is still young enough and shows enough flashes to intrigue people who think he can be a legitimate top six forward. Not sure he will develop that way but he has value because of the chance he does. I think it is you who may be way off on Foligno's value. He might as well tattoo 'Bottom 6' on his forehead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 I think it is you who may be way off on Foligno's value. He might as well tattoo 'Bottom 6' on his forehead Do not underestimate the average GM's capacity for stupidity. Especially where a big, physical, old style playoff winger is involved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 Do not underestimate the average GM's capacity for stupidity. Especially where a big, physical, old style playoff winger is involved. I think he's Brian Bickell 2.0. He has value and I think he could be valuable for a playoff run but I wouldn't pay him more than $2.5 mill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsb Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 I used to think this but he's settled pretty comfortably into a bottom 6 role. I'd be socked if he's every anything more. I'm with you but I'd probably be more shoe-d than socked. :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 I'm with you but I'd probably be more shoe-d than socked. :P Mike Millbury I am not Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted February 16, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 (edited) I really don't think there are any "flashes." When I hear somebody flashes too-six talent I think it has to be somebody who does it more than two or three times in an 82-game season. Instead of flashes I see them as aberrations. Edited February 16, 2016 by Hoss Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 I wouldn't have to go tramping if you started treating me with respect you used to. What's happened to us freeman? I just want things back to the way they used to be. Well, if you want me to start bringing flowers again, you need to sing me love songs. I think he's Brian Bickell 2.0. He has value and I think he could be valuable for a playoff run but I wouldn't pay him more than $2.5 mill. Definitely not. Also, I think the point upthread about Zemgus, Bailey and Fasching (and, I would suggest, Deslauriers and Schaller) being able to make up for the losses of Foligno and/or Larsson is right on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 I think it is you who may be way off on Foligno's value. He might as well tattoo 'Bottom 6' on his forehead He is a 7-9 who can fill in top 6 without looking uncomfortable and there are those within the league that still believe he could develop into a second line winger. Sure, if you forced me to bet I would be bottom 6 guy but him developing into a second line winger isn't out of the realm of possibility. DB will tell you he has one of the better shots on the team, skates well for a big man and is well respected by his teammates. Can he put together? Probably not but possible. I can tell you that GMTM refused to include him in at least two deals last year. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 Do not underestimate the average GM's capacity for stupidity. Especially where a big, physical, old style playoff winger is involved. Especially when he has a coach telling him that HE can get the full potential out of that guy 'cause he just wasn't used right. (Ref: Chris Gratton) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tom webster Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 Especially when he has a coach telling him that HE can get the full potential out of that guy 'cause he just wasn't used right. (Ref: Chris Gratton) And that's the thing that gets missed. This isn't an exact science. There are always varying opinions within an organization regarding players and their potential. Mark Pysyk is a perfect example. There are people in the organization that believe he is a top pair/three guy and DB seems unsure if he is even a top 6 guy. I think people are going to be surprised what Foligno either gets in a contract or fetches in trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 He is a 7-9 who can fill in top 6 without looking uncomfortable and there are those within the league that still believe he could develop into a second line winger. Sure, if you forced me to bet I would be bottom 6 guy but him developing into a second line winger isn't out of the realm of possibility. DB will tell you he has one of the better shots on the team, skates well for a big man and is well respected by his teammates. Can he put together? Probably not but possible. I can tell you that GMTM refused to include him in at least two deals last year. Interesting. I'd guess that means that if he IS traded, GMTM probably really likes whoever comes back in the trade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 And that's the thing that gets missed. This isn't an exact science. There are always varying opinions within an organization regarding players and their potential. Mark Pysyk is a perfect example. There are people in the organization that believe he is a top pair/three guy and DB seems unsure if he is even a top 6 guy. I think people are going to be surprised what Foligno either gets in a contract or fetches in trade. I'd agree w/ that. And the way he is always out at the end of games protecting leads is something that gets noticed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerme1 Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 Also, I think the point upthread about Zemgus, Bailey and Fasching (and, I would suggest, Deslauriers and Schaller) being able to make up for the losses of Foligno and/or Larsson is right on. I liker the point made about Bailey and Fasching. I may have agreed with you on Des last year but not the Des of this year. I have issues with Larsson but I don't believe Schaller is a good replacement. I have at least seen a few games out of Larsson that he can control play. I can't say that about Schaller. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 I have issues with Larsson but I don't believe Schaller is a good replacement. I have at least seen a few games out of Larsson that he can control play. I can't say that about Schaller. Agreed. Larsson had been showing signs of becoming that pesky 3rd line guy who can chip in with ~35 points. To my eye, Schaller projects only as a 4th line guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 Agreed. Larsson had been showing signs of becoming that pesky 3rd line guy who can chip in with ~35 points. To my eye, Schaller projects only as a 4th line guy. Agree on both. And though those roles definitely aren't as critical/ difficult to fill as the top slots, it's good to have them filled competently. Both those 2 & Deslauriers (assuming his downturn is a byproduct of still getting to 100%) have 1/2 those bottom 6 slots covered cheaply for the forseeable future. Love that everybody seems to want to cheapshot Larsson - he's getting under their skin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 Well, I really liked the Larsson-Kane-Gionta line before Larsson got hurt, but with 6 points in 50 games, it's hard to be confident about Larsson becoming a 35-point guy. He seems to have good instincts and a nice amount of sandpaper, but not much finish or passing ability. OTOH, I think Schaller has better hands than Larsson, and I semi-expect him to be a regular in the Sabres' lineup next year -- and if that happens I will predict that he'll surpass Larsson's production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerme1 Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 Well, I really liked the Larsson-Kane-Gionta line before Larsson got hurt, but with 6 points in 50 games, it's hard to be confident about Larsson becoming a 35-point guy. He seems to have good instincts and a nice amount of sandpaper, but not much finish or passing ability. OTOH, I think Schaller has better hands than Larsson, and I semi-expect him to be a regular in the Sabres' lineup next year -- and if that happens I will predict that he'll surpass Larsson's production. I respect and admire your position. Wrong as it may be :P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted February 16, 2016 Report Share Posted February 16, 2016 I respect and admire your position. Wrong as it may be :P Perhaps a gentlemen's wager, with proceeds to charity, as to which player puts up more points *for the Sabres* next year? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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