LGR4GM Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 I didn't pay attention to the draft back when he was drafted, was he put on a good line like McEichel will be? MacKinnon put up 24-39-63 last season. Okay. I am not arguing what MacKinnon scored. I am just saying that we have a offensively bad team of historic proportions. It may be wise to temper expectations. Ennis this year probably won't hit 50pts, asking a NHL rookie to out produce our highest scoring player may be setting them up to fail. I hope that McEichel end up on Buffalo and I hope they are fantastic but they might not be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 I disagree. Okposo was hardly the player he is now when Tavares joined the league, and Moulson benefited enormously from having him. We've seen what Moulson can do with average-good centers, a 20+goal, 40+pt kind of guy. But, put him with Tavares/an elite center, and he suddenly becomes 30+goals and 50+pts consistently. Not bad linemates, but Kane has done much more without having an elite center as talent. Put that with Moulson/Ennis, and that is a much better supporting cast. Okposo's 2nd highest career totals were in Tavares rookie season. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Okay. I am not arguing what MacKinnon scored. I am just saying that we have a offensively bad team of historic proportions. It may be wise to temper expectations. Ennis this year probably won't hit 50pts, asking a NHL rookie to out produce our highest scoring player may be setting them up to fail. I hope that McEichel end up on Buffalo and I hope they are fantastic but they might not be. But you're arguing what Crosby would have scored in his rookie year in today's NHL, which is what Mackinnon did, that's why I brought it up. I get the team is historically offensively/defensively/corsi/jersey wearing/coaching bad this year, and I know you know it's because they're set up to be. So why does Ennis' point production in an abberation of a year matter? I think it's much more realistic to compare them to Mackinnon. Okposo's 2nd highest career totals were in Tavares rookie season. True, but I'm looking at his and Moulson's play before Tavares joined the team to get a scope on how much help Tavares had vs. how much help he gave. Both players immediately started putting up much better numbers. It's a little more difficult to tell with Moulson seeing as Tavares' rookie campaign was really his as well, but looking at his stats post-Tavares tells the same story as Okposo. Edited February 16, 2015 by WildCard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 But you're arguing what Crosby would have scored in his rookie year in today's NHL, which is what Mackinnon did, that's why I brought it up. I get the team is historically offensively/defensively/corsi/jersey wearing/coaching bad this year, and I know you know it's because they're set up to be. So why does Ennis' point production in an abberation of a year matter? I think it's much more realistic to compare them to Mackinnon. Hmm maybe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 But you're arguing what Crosby would have scored in his rookie year in today's NHL, which is what Mackinnon did, that's why I brought it up. I get the team is historically offensively/defensively/corsi/jersey wearing/coaching bad this year, and I know you know it's because they're set up to be. So why does Ennis' point production in an abberation of a year matter? I think it's much more realistic to compare them to Mackinnon. True, but I'm looking at his and Moulson's play before Tavares joined the team to get a scope on how much help Tavares had vs. how much help he gave. Both players jumped immediately started putting up much better numbers. It's a little more difficult to tell with Moulson seeing as Tavare's rookie campaign was really his as well, but looking at his stats post-Tavares tells the same story as Okposo. So what are you trying to debate? You asked if Tavares had good linemates. Judging by the production I'd say they were good. They put up 1st line numbers. McEichel would likely have Matt Moulson on one wing, and Evander Kane on the other. Is 2015 Kane better than 2009 Okposo? Probably. How much better? Debatable. Enough to sway my expectations for a hyped rookie? Nope. If Kane was the kind of player that made his teammates better it would have shown in Winnipeg, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Jack Eichel is significantly outperforming where John Tavares was Pre-Draft. The expectations for his rookie year should be appropriately elevated. Connor is similarly outperforming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 So what are you trying to debate? You asked if Tavares had good linemates. Judging by the production I'd say they were good. They put up 1st line numbers. McEichel would likely have Matt Moulson on one wing, and Evander Kane on the other. Is 2015 Kane better than 2009 Okposo? Probably. How much better? Debatable. Enough to sway my expectations for a hyped rookie? Nope. If Kane was the kind of player that made his teammates better it would have shown in Winnipeg, no? I'm arguing McEichel will put up better numbers than Tavares or MacKinnon did their rookie campaigns. They are better players than either Tavares or MacKinnon, and will have a better supporting cast as well. We should be expecting 55+ point seasons as a bare minimum, and probably a disappointment if it's not 65+. Am i going to give up on them if they don't have amazing rookie campaigns? Of course not, but what's amazing for some should be expected from others. 2015 Kane is much, much better than 2009 Okposo. No offense, but I don't think that's debatable. We've seen how important a center is in the past Buffalo teams, and Okposo/Moulson's jump in production with Tavares only proves it more so. There's a reason every winger who plays with Crosby suddenly become an All-Star (not trying to be condescending, sorry if I am.) Kane is a great winger, but he's still not the most important player on the ice; he's only as great as the guy feeding him is. He played with Oli Jokinen when Jokinen was ancient, hardly comparable to McEichel. Put him with a great center and he will have the same jump Moulson/Tavares did, only more so because he's a better talent than either of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K-9 Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Jack Eichel is significantly outperforming where John Tavares was Pre-Draft. The expectations for his rookie year should be appropriately elevated. Connor is similarly outperforming. Agreed. McDeichel is simply a better prospect than Tavares was coming out. Indeed, they are both better prospects than anyone since Crosby came out. GO SABRES!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Well I suppose you could sign him and give him a NMC which would mean he couldn't be sent down without consent. I think that would be unusual. I think we should be prepared for something like 15-20g, 25a at this point. I mean our team has so little firepower we should temper expectations. How would you give a guy on a 2 way contract a NMC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biodork Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 How would you give a guy on a 2 way contract a NMC? Is there any reason he couldn't get a one-way ELC? Other than GM preference, anyhow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 How would you give a guy on a 2 way contract a NMC? Two-way only involves the money. I suppose you could put a clause in requiring player permission to move, but I'm not sure ELC's can have movement/trade riders in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Two-way only involves the money. I suppose you could put a clause in requiring player permission to move, but I'm not sure ELC's can have movement/trade riders in the first place. I'm a little surprised people don't understand this yet. Two-way doesn't mean a player can't be sent down. EDIT: Not saying Taro doesn't understand this. He may, he's a smart guy. Just saying that it is widely misconstrued. Edited February 16, 2015 by Tank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Is there any reason he couldn't get a one-way ELC? Other than GM preference, anyhow. The CBA mandates that all ELC contracts are two-way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biodork Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 The CBA mandates that all ELC contracts are two-way. Ah, thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 I'm a little surprised people don't understand this yet. Two-way doesn't mean a player can't be sent down. EDIT: Not saying Taro doesn't understand this. He may, he's a smart guy. Just saying that it is widely misconstrued. I blame it on an error in NHL '11. In that game 2-way contracts didn't need to clear waivers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) I'm a little surprised people don't understand this yet. Two-way doesn't mean a player can't be sent down. EDIT: Not saying Taro doesn't understand this. He may, he's a smart guy. Just saying that it is widely misconstrued. Considering I've explained that to people several times, not sure how I wouldn't get that distinction. The point was more directed at ELC's not being allowed to be 1 way; w/ the implication that players on ELC's cannot receive NMC's either; though that isn't expressly stated. But it is expressly stated that players on ELC's can be assigned to the ECHL w/out their consent; which implies they can be sent down to the AHL w/out their consent. 11.8 states explicitly that Group 3 FA's can receive NMC's &/or NTC's. Implying that non-group 3 FA's can't get NMC's. 18 yo's AREN'T in Group 3. So, the original Q is reasked: how would he get a NMC? Edited February 16, 2015 by Taro T Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Considering I've explained that to people several times, not sure how I wouldn't get that distinction. Sorry, forgot to check my mental log of your post history. :p I didn't know which is why I went out of my way to make it clear that I wasn't accusing you of not knowing. No harm intended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Sorry, forgot to check my mental log of your post history. :p I didn't know which is why I went out of my way to make it clear that I wasn't accusing you of not knowing. No harm intended. It's all cool. And the original Q could/should have been phrased better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Jack Eichel is significantly outperforming where John Tavares was Pre-Draft. The expectations for his rookie year should be appropriately elevated. Connor is similarly outperforming. From what I've heard from Islanders fans, Tavares has been a bit of a development project. He had to get a lot stronger physically and he's really improved his skating. He might just now be coming into his own in season five or six or whatever. I know people are expecting a different trajectory for McDavid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byebye Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Considering I've explained that to people several times making sure how I wouldn't get that distinction. The point was more directed at ELC's not being allowed to be 1 way; w/ the implication that players on ELC's cannot receive NMC's either; though that isn't expressly stated. But it is expressly stated that players on ELC's can be assigned to the ECHL w/out their consent; which implies they can be sent down to the AHL w/out their consent. 11.8 states explicitly that Group 3 FA's can receive NMC's &/or NTC's. Implying that non-group 3 FA's can't get NMC's. 18 yo's AREN'T in Group 3. So, the original Q is reasked: how would he get a NMC? If Eichel decided he wanted to play another year at BC he would have to do so before signing an ELC. Once he signs he can't chose to go back know any reason. If he wanted to he could finish school and not sign with us at all. Once he graduates he could sign anywhere as a UFA for any amount. -----—------------------ - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - I really don't see McDavid or Eichel playing the season opener on the 1st line. To me they should be playing a little more sheltered minutes with more offensive zone starts. I'm not saying all season but I think they shouldn't just be thrown into the fire, playing against top competition Edited February 16, 2015 by Naulter8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Just out of curiosity, what grade did you expect to find an 18 year old? And, in case you were wondering, McDavid is also "just a kid." They both play like men though and both will be in the NHL next year. yep.both have all world skills. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted February 16, 2015 Author Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 Just out of curiosity, what grade did you expect to find an 18 year old? And, in case you were wondering, McDavid is also "just a kid." They both play like men though and both will be in the NHL next year. I'm just saying it's an awful lot hope for, for an 18 year old to waltz into the NHL and be dominant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 If Eichel decided he wanted to play another year at BC he would have to do so before signing an ELC. Once he signs he can't chose to go back know any reason. If he wanted to he could finish school and not sign with us at all. Once he graduates he could sign anywhere as a UFA for any amount. BU. Your post is the equivalent of saying Jim Kelly was the best Dolphins QB of all time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude_Verret Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 I'm just saying it's an awful lot hope for, for an 18 year old to waltz into the NHL and be dominant. Dominant in their rookie season? I don't think anyone expects that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBorn Posted February 16, 2015 Report Share Posted February 16, 2015 If Eichel decided he wanted to play another year at BC he would have to do so before signing an ELC. Once he signs he can't chose to go back know any reason. If he wanted to he could finish school and not sign with us at all. Once he graduates he could sign anywhere as a UFA for any amount. I'm kind of late to the discussion but I read that post and it scared the living sh*t out of me.. not another Brenden Lemiuex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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