The tank is 1/2 over...

[JJFIVEOH]

These type of critiques could he lobbed at any and every approach to team building. UFA spending spree? Failed here and countless other places. Trades? Failed here and other places. I've seen nothing to show that this time these trades and free agent signings will vault us from 10th to 4th.

 

See how that works? Critiquing the tank strategy because it may not work and you're not convinced it will is the weakest argument against it that can be made because it can be said about every single thing any sports team in history has done. How many times to teams win the offseason and proceed to such balls when the real games start. No less frequently than teams draft high and fall flat.

 

If you or anyone else would rather watch a playoff bubble team than a bottom three team, that's fine. I disagree with its value, but it's a reasonable position. Taking the position that tanking sucks because it can fail is weak sauce.

 

There is one difference. Tanking makes the team unwatchable for multiple years. (OK, I still watch). When it can fail just as easily as building through trades and free agency. While some may welcome and embrace being the laughing stock for 2-4 years, some of us enjoy to see a competitive team year after year. Yes, I enjoyed the stretch run the Sabres made when Pegula came aboard and I enjoyed the fact that they tried to improve the core the already had. I'd be willing to bet that several on here that claim to embrace the tank also supported the effort to build that team with a blank check. There is way too much risk involved in spending several years destroying an entire team in hopes it will become a Cup contender.

 

I keep hearing this "If you'd rather watch a playoff bubble team..........." as an argument in support of a tank like tanking is the only way to become a contender. The Sabres just happened to be a playoff bubble team, there weren't a playoff bubble team because they didn't tank. It's simply not logical.

 

We're not going to get McDavid, this forum needs to accept that and move on. Murray has done a decent job of putting together a team that might be halfway fun to watch this season. I think he knows that it's probably a bad decision to plan on McDavid and is concentrating on just having three 1st round picks, like Eleven pointed out earlier.

[Claude_Verret]

Nobody ever claimed that tanking is the only way to build a contender, but it is undeniably an approach that this franchise has never tried. "All we are saying is give tanking a chance."

[PASabreFan]

What is the real point here? Do you think they are not trying to build a good team? Do you think they are somehow lying to us? Are you as outraged as PAFan is that they are spending $5MM below the cap this year?

 

I'm not outraged. And it was just a question. Jeez, you must like Wang (not that there's anything wrong with it). He's been spending well under the cap for years. He must be trying REALLY hard to win multiple Cups.

 

Edit: nhlnumbers.com says the Sabres have a little less than $14 million in cap space.

Edited July 20, 2014 by PASabreFan

[Claude_Verret]

We're not going to get McDavid, this forum needs to accept that and move on.

 

Or you and a few others need to accept that the Sabres along with a handful of other teams will have the best shot at landing him, and move on.

Edited July 20, 2014 by Claude_Verret

[PASabreFan]

They did promote the prospects game.

 

What are they doing, marketing-wise, that results in the waiting list?

 

Not that it was this group, but I'm sure you remember "It's our team, let's keep it that way" (accompanied by image of cute puppy in Sabres sweater with gun to its head). Ted Black said he can't operate on the assumption that Terry and his money will be around forever. The implied threat for Buffalo sports fans is always there. Support these teams, or else.

 

Is it marketing? Sure. Like Swamp said, marketing is part of every message the team puts out. Subtle things are even done online, like maybe having an employee of the Sabres communications department moderate a fan message board.

Edited July 20, 2014 by PASabreFan

[TrueBlueGED]

There is one difference. Tanking makes the team unwatchable for multiple years. (OK, I still watch). When it can fail just as easily as building through trades and free agency. While some may welcome and embrace being the laughing stock for 2-4 years, some of us enjoy to see a competitive team year after year. Yes, I enjoyed the stretch run the Sabres made when Pegula came aboard and I enjoyed the fact that they tried to improve the core the already had. I'd be willing to bet that several on here that claim to embrace the tank also supported the effort to build that team with a blank check. There is way too much risk involved in spending several years destroying an entire team in hopes it will become a Cup contender.

 

I keep hearing this "If you'd rather watch a playoff bubble team..........." as an argument in support of a tank like tanking is the only way to become a contender. The Sabres just happened to be a playoff bubble team, there weren't a playoff bubble team because they didn't tank. It's simply not logical.

 

We're not going to get McDavid, this forum needs to accept that and move on. Murray has done a decent job of putting together a team that might be halfway fun to watch this season. I think he knows that it's probably a bad decision to plan on McDavid and is concentrating on just having three 1st round picks, like Eleven pointed out earlier.

 

You're right, tanking makes the team basically unwatchable in the short term. It's a valid reason to not want to do it. That wasn't my point though.

 

For some of us, a team that is barely watchable is not more enjoyable than a team which is unwatchable.

 

Finally, we may not land McDavid or Eichel, but we're in a great spot to land another elite prospect. And that's really what counts. I hope that's the last time it has to be said (but I know it won't be).

[JJFIVEOH]

You're right, tanking makes the team basically unwatchable in the short term. It's a valid reason to not want to do it. That wasn't my point though.

 

For some of us, a team that is barely watchable is not more enjoyable than a team which is unwatchable.

 

Finally, we may not land McDavid or Eichel, but we're in a great spot to land another elite prospect. And that's really what counts. I hope that's the last time it has to be said (but I know it won't be).

 

Nobody is denying we will get an elite prospect(s). I would also argue that more years than not since the last lockout the Sabres have been better than barely watchable.

 

Maybe your point will need to be repeated, it's no different than anybody else repeating their opinion in rebuttal. Hell, we're still talking about how much Darcy sucks. As has been pointed out to me, it's the off-season. Get over it. ;)

Edited July 20, 2014 by JJFIVEOH

[X. Benedict]

 

 

Not that it was this group, but I'm sure you remember "It's our team, let's keep it that way" (accompanied by image of cute puppy in Sabres sweater with gun to its head). Ted Black said he can't operate on the assumption that Terry and his money will be around forever. The implied threat for Buffalo sports fans is always there. Support these teams, or else.

 

Is it marketing? Sure. Like Swamp said, marketing is part of every message the team puts out. Subtle things are even done online, like maybe having an employee of the Sabres communications department moderate a fan message board.

 

wait a second - marketing is about sales - Swamp doesn't buy tickets or anything else - (his words) - but he's angry about the Marketing job. no?

 

So what he's really angry about is other people (and maybe you too?) buying stuff. Am I wrong?

 

What does this ripe for the picking stuff mean other than thinking Buffalo Hockey fans are not savy?

 

I hold that the season ticket holders more than the non-season ticket holders know exactly what product they are getting.

 

 

 

 

[Eleven]

wait a second - marketing is about sales - Swamp doesn't buy tickets or anything else - (his words) - but he's angry about the Marketing job. no?

 

So what he's really angry about is other people (and maybe you too?) buying stuff. Am I wrong?

 

What does this ripe for the picking stuff mean other than thinking Buffalo Hockey fans are not savy?

 

I hold that the season ticket holders more than the non-season ticket holders know exactly what product they are getting.

 

Yes, and we're pissed, but we're optimistic. We're not dupes, FFS.

 

Not that it was this group, but I'm sure you remember "It's our team, let's keep it that way" (accompanied by image of cute puppy in Sabres sweater with gun to its head). Ted Black said he can't operate on the assumption that Terry and his money will be around forever. The implied threat for Buffalo sports fans is always there. Support these teams, or else.

 

Is it marketing? Sure. Like Swamp said, marketing is part of every message the team puts out. Subtle things are even done online, like maybe having an employee of the Sabres communications department moderate a fan message board.

 

Well, I know what freeman and SDS do. Chz, do you work for the Sabres communications department?

[...]

If their marketing strategies are working now, imagine how well they will be working when the team is good. They'll be practically sucking money out of the fan-base's pockets with a vacuum cleaner if they become a contender.

 

The critique on marketing and the gullible fan-base is ridiculous. Are they not supposed to market their product? WTF. They're a business, they're managing their business exactly the way they're supposed to.

 

Should someone propose new laws that ban the marketing by sports teams who do not contend for championships?

[Huckleberry]

Not that it was this group, but I'm sure you remember "It's our team, let's keep it that way" (accompanied by image of cute puppy in Sabres sweater with gun to its head). Ted Black said he can't operate on the assumption that Terry and his money will be around forever. The implied threat for Buffalo sports fans is always there. Support these teams, or else.

 

Is it marketing? Sure. Like Swamp said, marketing is part of every message the team puts out. Subtle things are even done online, like maybe having an employee of the Sabres communications department moderate a fan message board.

 

That should be the way to run this organisation anyways.

[...]

McRib fans apparently lobbied McDonalds to bring that sandwich back. Like any moderately competent business, McDonald's brass got the message and put it on the menu in some markets, and in others it comes back for a limited time.

 

Sabres fans have been lobbying for a Cup. The Sabres are trying to oblige. It's slightly more difficult than pulling out the faux rack of rib molds.

 

 

[PASabreFan]

McRib fans apparently lobbied McDonalds to bring that sandwich back. Like any moderately competent business, McDonald's brass got the message and put it on the menu in some markets, and in others it comes back for a limited time.

 

Sabres fans have been lobbying for a Cup. The Sabres are trying to oblige. It's slightly more difficult than pulling out the faux rack of rib molds.

 

Nice! They're just trying give us what we want! Thank you Sabres! Thank you Sabres!

 

If their marketing strategies are working now, imagine how well they will be working when the team is good. They'll be practically sucking money out of the fan-base's pockets with a vacuum cleaner if they become a contender.

 

The critique on marketing and the gullible fan-base is ridiculous. Are they not supposed to market their product? WTF. They're a business, they're managing their business exactly the way they're supposed to.

 

Should someone propose new laws that ban the marketing by sports teams who do not contend for championships?

 

I think Swamp's problem is with the product mainly. Or the fact that there is no product, the marketing of which ("hope!" #blueprint, "the future's so bright…") is offensive.

 

Yes, and we're pissed, but we're optimistic. We're not dupes, FFS.

 

There is no we. There isn't one kind of STH. Some are not optimistic. Some think the Sabres are going to be really good next season after Murray signed those guys, and they're dupes. Some are only pissed because the secondary market has dropped through the floor.

 

 

Well, I know what freeman and SDS do. Chz, do you work for the Sabres communications department?

 

chz did make a comment recently that suggested Mike is/was her boss.

[...]

Let's propose more accurate marketing terminology, then:

 

#bluesuck

 

We suck!

 

Come watch us, we're horrible!

[SwampD]

Let's propose more accurate marketing terminology, then:

 

#bluesuck

 

We suck!

 

Come watch us, we're horrible!

#screwprint

[...]

 

 

Nice! They're just trying give us what we want! Thank you Sabres! Thank you Sabres!

 

 

 

Goodness, you're so jaded. What language do you suggest they use? You're typing and typing in this thread but haven't provided anything but the old bingo lady bitch-fest.

 

Lay it out: what, exactly should they be doing, what should they be saying?

 

Proposed truthful airline marketing: "Once in a great while something in the safety chain breaks down, and a plane will crash. That would mean almost certain death to you, passenger. But, hopefully, you will never experience this with our airline; you see, statistics are on your side..."

[darksabre]

Goodness, you're so jaded. What language do you suggest they use? You're typing and typing in this thread but haven't provided anything but the old bingo lady bitch-fest.

 

Lay it out: what, exactly should they be doing, what should they be saying?

 

Proposed truthful airline marketing: "Once in a great while something in the safety chain breaks down, and a plane will crash. That would mean almost certain death to you, passenger. But, hopefully, you will never experience this with our airline; you see, statistics are on your side..."

 

:worthy:

[Eleven]

 

chz did make a comment recently that suggested Mike is/was her boss.

 

 

Where's this?

 

#screwprint

 

This is pretty damned funny, actually.

[TrueBlueGED]

Nobody is denying we will get an elite prospect(s). I would also argue that more years than not since the last lockout the Sabres have been better than barely watchable.

 

Maybe your point will need to be repeated, it's no different than anybody else repeating their opinion in rebuttal. Hell, we're still talking about how much Darcy sucks. As has been pointed out to me, it's the off-season. Get over it. ;)

 

Needing to repeat this particular point is different. We rehash the same arguments all the time here, but there's a fundamental difference in rehashing an argument versus needing to continually clarify a position because one side of the debate feels compelled to misrepresent what the other side is saying. Tanking is not, has never been, and never will be only about McDavid and Eichel. Yet some continue to say it is in an effort to discredit the rebuild strategy. It's disingenuous and obnoxious.

 

Where's this?

 

It was in one of the Murray threads when it was mentioned Murray had to take media training. PA is right on this.

 

Of course it seems he's reading more into it than there is since being a Sabres employee and being a mod doesn't mean the two are related in any way.

[Eleven]

Was it this post?

 

Gibby likes to control people. Same for Snow.

[TrueBlueGED]

That's the one I'm thinking of.

[...]

 

 

Tanking is not, has never been, and never will be only about McDavid and Eichel. Yet some continue to say it is in an effort to discredit the rebuild strategy. It's disingenuous and obnoxious.

 

You need to fax out the memo again, because I do not get the impression many of your fellow tankers see it that way. Even in the media, the tank is presented with McDavid and Eichel as the objectives. It's not very frequent that the clarification is made that it is unlikely the Sabres will acquire either as a result of tanking.

 

Only here on SS do I see the more savvy tankers admit to this reality, and even some of those do so in a seemingly reticent manner.

 

This is the part of the tank that bothers me greatly: it seems many folks believe, beyond rationality, that the end game is a top 2 pick.

 

[Eleven]

That's the one I'm thinking of.

 

I don't think that implies that Mike Gilbert is her boss. I'm not even sure it was said anything other than tongue-in-cheek.

 

I know that if I ran the team, I'd forbid any employee from participating on a site like this one.

 

EDIT: Also, if she works for the team, why does she take the train down from the Theatre District on game nights?

Edited July 20, 2014 by Eleven

[JJFIVEOH]

McRib fans apparently lobbied McDonalds to bring that sandwich back. Like any moderately competent business, McDonald's brass got the message and put it on the menu in some markets, and in others it comes back for a limited time.

 

Sabres fans have been lobbying for a Cup. The Sabres are trying to oblige. It's slightly more difficult than pulling out the faux rack of rib molds.

 

Otherwise, would they have gotten the impression fans want to lose? :P

 

You need to fax out the memo again, because I do not get the impression many of your fellow tankers see it that way. Even in the media, the tank is presented with McDavid and Eichel as the objectives. It's not very frequent that the clarification is made that it is unlikely the Sabres will acquire either as a result of tanking.

 

Only here on SS do I see the more savvy tankers admit to this reality, and even some of those do so in a seemingly reticent manner.

 

This is the part of the tank that bothers me greatly: it seems many folks believe, beyond rationality, that the end game is a top 2 pick.

 

Thank you.

Edited July 20, 2014 by JJFIVEOH

[Hoss]

 

 

You need to fax out the memo again, because I do not get the impression many of your fellow tankers see it that way. Even in the media, the tank is presented with McDavid and Eichel as the objectives. It's not very frequent that the clarification is made that it is unlikely the Sabres will acquire either as a result of tanking.

 

Only here on SS do I see the more savvy tankers admit to this reality, and even some of those do so in a seemingly reticent manner.

 

This is the part of the tank that bothers me greatly: it seems many folks believe, beyond rationality, that the end game is a top 2 pick.

 

Top 2 pick is the holy grail, but not getting it doesn't thwart the efforts. It may slow it, and it would obviously be a pretty big letdown, but it doesn't end the hope.