Sabres better off than I thought....

[inkman]

 

 

I guess. But you can go through every draft and "re-draft". He's a heck of a player, but if we drafted him, we'd miss out on Risto, and the following year wouldn't have finished dead last and missed out on Ekblad, and next thing you know is we're creeping into the next Edmonton Oilers.

I'm not one of those could have should have losers. I'm mearly stating if Darcy had started the tank properly, we would have moved Miller or Vanek sooner and had the first pick instead of wherever they drafted Risto.

[wjag]

If this isn't rock bottom, then I can't define or even imagine what is.

 

I still think they doffed too many veterans. The rebuild is going to be a slog.

[Bob Malooga]

The original post said absolutely nothing about "prospects," it spoke of "youth."

 

Under the age of 25 years old, is considered youth.

 

So, if you want to look at it that way...those teams are way further ahead of Buffalo because of the young stars they already have.

 

And I also never argued Buffalo's standing in the "prospect rankings." I have stated numerous times, they are the #1 prospect pool in the NHL...but again, that has zero to do with the original post, or my original comment.

 

One more thing...if they are behind in the "prospect" area, they sure are ahead in building a team of quality prospects around the quality players they already have. ALL of those teams have a "superstar," or at least one VERY close...Buffalo has zero.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Bob Malooga

[WildCard]

The original post said absolutely nothing about "prospects," it spoke of "youth."

 

Under the age of 25 years old, is considered youth.

 

So, if you want to look at it that way...those teams are way further ahead of Buffalo because of the young stars they already have.

I'd be very interested to see what the rest of this board thinks in regards to Vancouver being "way further ahead" than the Sabres

[Johnny DangerFace]

The original post said absolutely nothing about "prospects," it spoke of "youth."

 

Under the age of 25 years old, is considered youth.

 

So, if you want to look at it that way...those teams are way further ahead of Buffalo because of the young stars they already have.

 

And I also never argued Buffalo's standing in the "prospect rankings." I have stated numerous times, they are the #1 prospect pool in the NHL...but again, that has zero to do with the original post, or my original comment.

 

Some of these teams have a hell of a prospect pool that certainly compares to Buffalo's...and a couple have much more!

(Disclaimer: Each team's prospects are not listed in any specific order.)

 

Panthers - Huberdeau, Barkov, Pirri, Gudbranson, Bjugstad, Kulikov, Robak, Shore, Howden, Trocheck, Petrovic, McCoshen, Matheson, Olson, Clapperton.

 

Oilers - Hall, Ebele, Nugent-Hopkins, Yakupov, Schultz, Nurse, Klefbom, Marincin, Musil, Lander, Slepysev, Brossoit.

 

Calgary - Monahan, Gaudreau, Granlund, Backlund, Galiardi, Byron, Hanowski, Colborne, Baertschi, Reinhart, Knight, Poirier, Agostino, Brodie, Klimchuk, Kanzig, Olivier-Roy, Jankowski, Bouma, Aliu, Gillies.

 

NYI - Tavares, Okposo, Grabner, Strome, Lee, Reinhart, Pulock, Martin, Bailey, Halmo, Hamonic, Nelson, Donovan, Williams, McAdam, Cizikas, Pokka, Mayfield, Ullstrom, Poulin, Nilsson.

 

Ottawa - Karlsson, Zibanejad, Turris, Lazar, Puempel, Hoffman, Pageau, Stone, Gryba, Smith, Grant, Lehner, Ceci, Hogberg, Dunn, Karlsson, Borowiecki, Wiercioch,.

 

Toronto - Bernier, Van-Riemsdyk, Kadri, Reilly, Leivo, Ashton, McKegg, Gauthier, Finn, Percy, Verhaeghe, Herzog, Gibson.

 

Carolina - Skinner, Stall, Faulk, Lindholm, Murray, Bowman, Nash, Loktionov, McGinn, Biega, Rask, DiGiuseppe, Pesce, Tolchinsky.

 

Winnipeg - Kane, Scheifele, Trouba, Bogosian, Burmistrov, Peluso, Ellebe, Tangradi, Postma, Halischuk, O'Dell, Wright, Hutchinson, Morrisey, Petan, Lowry, Comrie, Hellebuyck, Kasdorf, Samuels-Thomas, Copp, Stoykewych.

 

Nashville - Jones, Forsberg, Del Zotto, Josi, Diaby, Jarnkrok, Sissons, Girard, Veilleux, Aberg, Watson, Beck, Ekholm, Wilson, Smith, Bourque, Spaling.

 

Vancouver - Markstrom, Lack, Kassian, Horvat, Shinkaruk, Jensen, Schroeder, Gaunce, Corrado, Matthias, Labate, Hutton, Subban, Blain, Erickson, Dalpe, Welsh, Weber, Tanev, Stanton, Zalewski.

 

 

are you sure you didnt call these players "prospects" and compare them to our "prospect pool?" This may be going over my head, but it looks like thats exactly what you did. It's no biggie, i just saw your original post and you called a list of players prospects and i stated most of them arent prospects

Edited April 3, 2014 by Numark

[Bob Malooga]

Winnipeg: If your most promising player is a punk winger like Evander Kane, then you're in trouble (see the Capitals)

If you don't have a single player who could even come close to sniffing Evander Kane's jockstrap, then you're in trouble. (see the Sabres)

 

are you sure you didnt call these players "prospects" and compare them to our "prospect pool?" This may be going over my head, but it looks like thats exactly what you did. It's no biggie, i just saw your original post and you called a list of players prospects and i stated most of them arent prospects

No, I actually got my information from doing some lengthy research on the "prospect" websites.

 

Just because you (or I) don't know their names, or haven't seen them play much...means absolutely nothing.

 

And again, my entire point is the fact that these teams were labeled as being behind Buffalo...but each one has a REAL LEGIT PROSPECT (18-20) years old, that is better than ANYONE the Sabres currently have on their team, in Rochester, or playing elsewhere...THAT is my point.

 

Also, just because we have decent prospects doesn't mean they will end up doing anything without players around them who came make them better and help them transition...like a Kane, Tavares, Stall, Cammalarri, Kesler, Weber, etc...elite prospects have players like that around them.

 

If not a single person can understand the point I am trying to get across here, then I give up and apologize...goodnight.

 

 

***Last thing...somebody said some of those players are in their 5th year since being drafted, right? Well, guess what? We have plenty of players who were drafted in those same years who have yet to even sniff NHL ice or become regulars...what does THAT tell you?

 

I am on board with the tank, I love our prospects...but I also try to be as realistic as possible, we are no further ahead of anyone *right now*.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Bob Malooga

[drnkirishone]

Some optimists were able to talk themselves into believing this was a fringe playoff team. I'd like to think some of the same optimists will be able to talk themselves into the idea that this year or next we're going to draft Azor Ahai reborn to end the long winter!

yes I was one of the optimists and I won't apologize for being one. when the cold wind of the north sends its sign that winter is coming and hockey is to begin my optimism is renewed. When the long night ends my sabres will be holding the holiest of holy cups high over their heads and it shall be known that Zadorov became Azor Ahai reborn by plunging his hockey stick into the heart of Taro Tsujimoto and saving us from the Others (bruins)

[WildCard]

If you don't have a single player who could even come close to sniffing Evander Kane's jockstrap, then you're in trouble. (see the Sabres)

He has one 30 goal season, which also happens to be is only 20 goal season as well and he comes with a bevy of personal issues. I'd take Hodgson and Girgensons over him, and I'm sure Ennis and Stafford can at least get a whiff of his jock. Plus, both of the Sabres 1st round picks the next two years will, in all likelihood, be much better than Kane.

Edited April 3, 2014 by WildCard

[Bob Malooga]

 

I'd be very interested to see what the rest of this board thinks in regards to Vancouver being "way further ahead" than the Sabres

Lack, Horvat, Shinkaruk, Markstrom, Jensen, Schroeder, Corrado, Gaunce, Matthias, Subban, Weber, Tanev, Kassian...

 

Kelser, Edler, Bieksa and the Sedins as trade-bait next year if need be...I would say Vancouver is in pretty darn good shape.

 

Coaching wise? No, probably not.

 

 

He has one 30 goal season, which also happens to be is only 20 goal season as well and he comes with a bevy of personal issues. I'd take Hodgson and Girgensons over him, and I'm sure Ennis and Stafford can at least get a whiff of his jock. Plus, both of the Sabres 1st round picks the next two years will, in all likelihood, be much better than Kane.

He is the only player (currently) on his team who has any skill, he has no linemates to feed him the puck or vice-versa.

 

If that kid got traded to Buffalo, you're telling me you wouldn't be excited? He'd instantly be our best player.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Bob Malooga

[WildCard]

Lack, Horvat, Shinkaruk, Markstrom, Jensen, Schroeder, Corrado, Gaunce, Matthias, Subban, Weber, Tanev, Kassian...

 

Kelser, Edler, Bieksa and the Sedins as trade-bait next year if need be...I would say Vancouver is in pretty darn good shape.

 

Coaching wise? No, probably not.

 

 

He is the only player (currently) on his team who has any skill, he has no linemates to feed him the puck or vice-versa.

 

If that kid got traded to Buffalo, you're telling me you wouldn't be excited? He'd instantly be our best player.

Sedins are both 33, and have been getting hurt lately. Kessler, Burrows, and Higgins are all about to hit 30. They're four best players, by far and away, are getting older, quickly. And Kessler was recently the talk of a very hot trade rumor mill. I would take where we are over the Canucks time and again right now. They're just starting to fall down the hill, at least we're finally starting to climb back up it

.

 

Kane has Wheeler, Ladd, and Little to feed him to him the puck, two of which are better than Kane. They're not young though, so I didn't consider them their best "player prospect" under the age of 25. Would I want Kane? Not a chance in hell, for the same reason many people on this board wouldn't want Ovechkin.

[HopefulFuture]

If this isn't rock bottom, then I can't define or even imagine what is.

 

I still think they doffed too many veterans. The rebuild is going to be a slog.

 

Not necessarily. The projected expectation should have always touted honesty within the final analasys

 

4 yo 5 years is where the number projects given the unknowns with so many variables. It's nice to believe in short turn arounds, but fans should temper that with a commitment towards ensuring it succeeds and in Buffalo's case those numbers appear more in the realm of reality.

[dudacek]

Using Bob's 25-and-under model, my perception of what the hockey community thinks of player ceilings based on a lot of reading and very little actual scouting: It's no competition between Buffalo and Vancouver, especially when you look at the sheer number of prospects Buffalo has

 

Projected elite forwards

Buffalo: none

Vancouver: none

 

Projected top pairing defencemen

Buffalo: Myers, Ristolainen, Zadorov

Vancouver: none

 

Projected top-six forwards

Buffalo: Ennis, Hodgson, Foligno, Girgensons, Grigorenko, Armia, Compher, Fasching

Vancouver: Kassian, Horvat, Shinkaruk, Jensen

 

Projected top four defencemen

Buffalo: Pysyk, McCabe

Vancouver: Tanev

 

Potential starting NHL goalies

Buffalo: Enroth

Vancouver: Markstrom

 

Potential NHL regular forwards

Buffalo: Flynn, Conacher, Deslauriers, Larsson, Hurley, Bailey, Baptiste, Carrier, Possler,Catenacci

Vancouver: Gaunce, Schroeder, Cassels, Grenier, Dalpe

 

Potential NHL regular defencemen

Buffalo: Ruhwedel

Vancouver: Stanton, Corrado, Weber

 

Potential NHL goalies

Buffalo: Ullmark, Hackett

Vancouver:Ericsson

 

Matthias and Lack are actually 26, but if you really want to include them, so are Neuvirth and Chris Stewart.

 

Some of those other teams have some pretty impressive lists, as do some you didn't include.

But the Floridas and Colorados are a few years ahead of us in tanking.

 

I doubt there is a GM in the world that would take Vancouver's prospect list over ours.

And that's not even counting the number of high picks coming in the next two years.

Edited April 3, 2014 by dudacek

[Andrew Amerk]

1. Is everyone just done with Luke Adam at this point? Career AHLer? He's still only 23.

 

2. Disappointed that Armia's skills haven't translated over to North America yet. Although, no one drafted after Armia in that draft other than Saad has really been impactful yet.

 

3. Larsson has been pretty good in Rochester this year. He tends to get left out of these "prospect discussions." I am hoping to see him blossom on the Sabres roster next year.

 

4. Grigs...I am thinking that he is going to turn a corner and become a decent NHL player, it's only a matter of time. He just needs some stability and a mentor.

 

5. The possibility of a goalie log-jam wasnt something that I ever saw coming. Out of Enroth Neuvirth Lieuwen Hackett Makarov, competition will be fierce. SOMEONE has to be able to become a strong number 1 out of all of this, right???

[LGR4GM]

1) If you don't have a single player who could even come close to sniffing Evander Kane's jockstrap, then you're in trouble. (see the Sabres)

 

 

No, I actually got my information from doing some lengthy research on the "prospect" websites.

 

2) Just because you (or I) don't know their names, or haven't seen them play much...means absolutely nothing.

 

3) And again, my entire point is the fact that these teams were labeled as being behind Buffalo...but each one has a REAL LEGIT PROSPECT (18-20) years old, that is better than ANYONE the Sabres currently have on their team, in Rochester, or playing elsewhere...THAT is my point.

 

Also, just because we have decent prospects doesn't mean they will end up doing anything without players around them who came make them better and help them transition...like a Kane, Tavares, Stall, Cammalarri, Kesler, Weber, etc...elite prospects have players like that around them.

 

4) If not a single person can understand the point I am trying to get across here, then I give up and apologize...goodnight.

 

 

***Last thing...somebody said some of those players are in their 5th year since being drafted, right? Well, guess what? We have plenty of players who were drafted in those same years who have yet to even sniff NHL ice or become regulars...what does THAT tell you?

1) Tyler Ennis can kick evander kane's lazy jock strap up and down the ice. Zemgus Girgensons can in time as well. Evander Kane is the perfect example of talent without heart. Also Kane is 22 soon to turn 23. He was a 4th overall pick. We have not drafted close to that high since Thomas Vanek in 2003. JT Compher, Gustav Possler, and maybe Hudson Fasching all could equal Kane's 17-20goals a season given time. Ready I will make a bold prediciton, Nicolas Baptiste will be better than Evander Kane in time... I could be wrong but at least Baptiste has the heart.

 

2) True.

 

3) Please show me Vancouver's legit 18-20yr old prospect who is better than anyone the Sabres have. They have Hunter Shinkaruk and Bo Horvat as their best forward prospects. We have Girgensons, Compher, Grigorenko just off the top of my head. So that is a pretty close matchup for now, even though it does not take into account this years draft. Now lets look at defense because defense wins championships.

 

Corrado, Blain, Tommernes versus Ristolainen, Zadorov, McCabe. Corrado and Risto match up decently if you don't count that Risto is 2 years younger and 3" 20lbs bigger with more offensive upside. McCabe and Blain... well Blain is okay, a lot of talk of his need for better positioning but he is physical. McCabe is stunningly sound defensively and has been a leader for just about every team he has played for. So yea I'd take McCabe. Now the fun part... you wanted a Prospect better than anyone and I have 2 words, Nikita Zadorov. Go watch his highlights. He makes anyone the Nucks have in their defensive pipeline laughable. At this stage I would take him over Shinkaruk and Horvat. Zadorov has all the potential to be an ELITE Defender in the NHL. He hits, is mobile, makes great passes, is calm under pressure, scores, and is a leader.

 

4) I understand your point. My problem is your point is wrong and ignore a bevy of facts that include what is or is not a prospect and the fact that some of the teams you are touting as superior have recently had more than 1 top 5 draft pick. Florida, Edmonton, NYI so no wonder they have really great young guys.

 

 

Last to your 5th year player point. I am not going to do the research because I don't care to however the Sabres started their full on rebuild in 2012 when they traded for Hodgson and drafted Girgensons and Grigorenko. That was 2 years ago. Before that we were video scouting and dishing out picks for shots at a playoff spot. The Sabres had 1 2nd round pick between 2008 and 2011 and that was Luke Adam. Since 2008 all of our 1st round picks have seen time in the NHL, Ennis, Myers, Kassian, Pysyk, Girgensons and technically Grigorenko. The only exception is Joel Armia. So I am not sure what point you are trying to make with "somebody said some of those players are in their 5th year since being drafted, right? Well, guess what? We have plenty of players who were drafted in those same years who have yet to even sniff NHL ice or become regulars...what does THAT tell you?", but I can tell you that you are flat out wrong because we have plenty of players who have "sniffed" the NHL. My question to you is how many of those players you are so high on from other teams were drafted in rounds 1-3? Your argument is invalid because you didn't bother to understand the history of the draft in those years or where players were selected. If Vancouver selected 2 players in the 1st round and 2 players in the 2nd round every year for 3-4 years 5-7 years ago I would expect them to have a ton of guys in the NHL now that they drafted. Finally you say we have a ton of players who haven't sniffed the NHL well guess what those other teams do as well. We draft 7 players per year and we have 23 men on the roster. That would mean every 3 years a complete roster turnover if all those players hit. That just doesn't make sense. If you get 2 NHL players out of a draft you have done well. Since 2012 we have gotten potentially 10 guys who have legitimate shots to make the NHL within the next 5 years. Find another team that has that.

Edited April 3, 2014 by LGR4GM

[nfreeman]

yes I was one of the optimists and I won't apologize for being one. when the cold wind of the north sends its sign that winter is coming and hockey is to begin my optimism is renewed. When the long night ends my sabres will be holding the holiest of holy cups high over their heads and it shall be known that Zadorov became Azor Ahai reborn by plunging his hockey stick into the heart of Taro Tsujimoto and saving us from the Others (bruins)

 

When do we get to see the khaleesi?

[LGR4GM]

When do we get to see the khaleesi?

Kim Pegula?

[Robviously]

yes I was one of the optimists and I won't apologize for being one. when the cold wind of the north sends its sign that winter is coming and hockey is to begin my optimism is renewed. When the long night ends my sabres will be holding the holiest of holy cups high over their heads and it shall be known that Zadorov became Azor Ahai reborn by plunging his hockey stick into the heart of Taro Tsujimoto and saving us from the Others (bruins)

This was a great post already but it became amazing when you added "(bruins)" at the very end. :D

[PASabreFan]

Usually I'm the one to express our deepest, darkest fears, but Bob is doing a good job. And he's not wrong. Fans of a team are predisposed to think their kids are the best. We should have bumper stickers or something.

[Claude_Verret]

Usually I'm the one to express our deepest, darkest fears, but Bob is doing a good job. And he's not wrong. Fans of a team are predisposed to think their kids are the best. We should have bumper stickers or something.

 

Except that most of the impartial "experts" do indeed have the Sabres ranked towards the very top in terms of deepest prospect pool, and it only stands to get deeper after the next two drafts. Of course they could all end up being dead wrong, and Murray could bungle the drafts, but there certainly is reason for being optimistic at this point.

[PASabreFan]

Except that most of the impartial "experts" do indeed have the Sabres ranked towards the very top in terms of deepest prospect pool, and it only stands to get deeper after the next two drafts. Of course they could all end up being dead wrong, and Murray could bungle the drafts, but there certainly is reason for being optimistic at this point.

 

MIght be my imagination, but haven't these experts said the same thing many times post-2007? It's almost become cliche: "the Buffalo Sabres draft well."

[Claude_Verret]

MIght be my imagination, but haven't these experts said the same thing many times post-2007? It's almost become cliche: "the Buffalo Sabres draft well."

 

They are currently ranked 2nd behind the Lightning on Hockey's Future. I don't know about all the way back to 2007, but I don't remember them ever being higher than the teens in recent years on that site.

[LGR4GM]

MIght be my imagination, but haven't these experts said the same thing many times post-2007? It's almost become cliche: "the Buffalo Sabres draft well."

Drafting well and having a extremely deep pool of prospects are not necessarily the same thing. The Sabres from 2008-2011 only drafted 1 time in the 2nd round. That was Luke Adam who hasn't flamed out but also hasn't lit the world on fire. Since 2007 here is a list of picks taken in the first 3 rounds of the draft:

2007 - 2nd TJ Brennan, 2nd Corey Scheistal, 3rd Corey Tropp

2008 - 1st Tyler Myers, 1st Tyler Ennis, 2nd Luke Adam, 3rd Corey Fienhage

2009 - 1st Zack Kassian, 3rd Brayden McNabb

2010 - 1st Mark Pysyk, 3rd Jerome Gauthier-Leduc, 3rd Kevin Sundher, 3rd Matt McKenzie

2011 - 1st Joel Armia, 3rd Dan Catenacci

2012 - 1st Mikahil Grigorenko, 1st Zemgus Girgensons, 2nd Jake McCabe, 3rd Justin Kea

 

Seems that are drafting has gotten better and that we do draft well. Also in the last 2 years we have had 10 picks in the first 3 rounds and 8 in the first 2 rounds. So our prospect pool has changed tremendously in the last 2 years.

[Huckleberry]

My personal wet dream.

 

Sign Callahan and Ott over the summer.

2014 1st round pick

 

Tank next year

Win Mcdavid and draft top 5 in 2015

Sign Patrick kane as a UFA.

 

by this time Grigorenko cements himself as our 2nd line center.

 

To be honest with all the talent we got coming i can see us easy having

A real 1st line in 2016

but after that it will be like 2A 2B 3A

Edited April 3, 2014 by Heimdall

[Johnny DangerFace]

Sabres prospect pool ranking (HF)

 

2008 - 20

2009 - 9

2010 - 19

2011 - 14

2012 - 13

2013 - 2 (doesn't include carrier, fasching, emergence of possler or Ullmark)

2014 - my bet is #1 easily

 

 

Ps top 2 teams in 2010 were predators and kings. Top 2 teams in 2009 were blues and predators.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Numark

[Bob Malooga]

Never mind...clearly my entire point was missed. It was not about microscopically comparing each and every prospect with each other on Buffalo's roster.

 

I was simply saying that with all of the "what-ifs" and unknowns we have on the roster, how can anyone say we are ahead of those other teams? They have plenty of skill as well, some of which is further ahead of what Buffalo has at the same age. Plus, like Buffalo, they have a lot of "who's" and

what-ifs," it is all the same as the Sabres' organization has. I would say they are all at about the same place right now.

 

The difference between Buffalo and the rest, is the fact that Buffalo has the draft picks and is basically starting from scratch.

 

But absolutely zero of that means that anything is going to develop and pay off...or become some of those other players.

 

(I sure hope it does. I sure hope the OP is correct. I am just being realistic, I have seen this play out for years. I am 100% onboard with the tank, and who most everyone around here wants the Sabres. I have mentioned that from post #1 since I joined this site. I was not attacking the OP or trying to insult anyone's evaluations or opinions...I was simply stating the obvious for discussion purposes. Lesson learned, for sure...I apologize. /rant)

 

My personal wet dream.

 

Sign Callahan and Ott over the summer.

2014 1st round pick

 

Tank next year

Win Mcdavid and draft top 5 in 2015

Sign Patrick kane as a UFA.

 

by this time Grigorenko cements himself as our 2nd line center.

I, too, have stated this as my ideal situation, numerous times here and elsewhere...and will continue to do so until it is not possible.

 

Usually I'm the one to express our deepest, darkest fears, but Bob is doing a good job. And he's not wrong. Fans of a team are predisposed to think their kids are the best. We should have bumper stickers or something.

 

 

MIght be my imagination, but haven't these experts said the same thing many times post-2007? It's almost become cliche: "the Buffalo Sabres draft well."

Thank you, just digging my head out of the sand and trying to be realistic for once in my life. :-)

Edited April 3, 2014 by Bob Malooga