Buffalo Bills 2014

[That Aud Smell]

Can someone explain to me why Rivers' throwaway wasn't intentional grounding, but EJ's was? I thought EJ was being hit, and if you're being hit, it only needs to go back to the line of scrimmage? Also, I thought Rivers was still in the pocket when he threw his away. I'm not complaining about the difference, I just want to understand.

 

I won't purport to know the NFL rule book. My understanding is that Rivers' throwaway was allowed because he was a step or two outside the tackle box. A close call, but a reasonable one. EJ was not outside the tackle box when he chucked it to a place where there was no receiver. I don't think that whether or not you're being hit has much to do with anything. As for getting the ball back to the line of scrimmage, that may be right -- but the issue, I think, is whether you're outside the tackles when you throw it away.

[LastPommerFan]

Okay, I laughed. But you still didn't answer my question, which was legitimate. I don't see anything Sanchez does better than Manuel: he has worse accuracy, a weaker arm, and turns the ball over more. His ability to read the defense and work through his progressions isn't any better either, and was one of his chief criticisms while he was starting.

 

Manuel doesn't have strong natural accuracy (and I don't see how that improves at this point) and may always struggle going through his progressions...but these flaws do not make him 2-3 games worse than Mark Sanchez.

 

Snachez and EJ are very similar read and accuracy wise. The difference is the Jets had a quarterback who tried to beat the other team. EJ is getting his yards from screens and slants (he might be dangerous if he could read and throw the out, but alas, that is not the quarterback we have). When the Bills do call on him to make an actual skilled passing play, he fails.

 

But I agree, if Mark Sanchez can beat Manning and Brady on consecutive weeks to make the AFCC, surely EJ can do the same. I'd certainly be willing to part with next years first round pick on those odds.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Glass Case Of Emotion

[nfreeman]

This is terrific: http://grantland.com/the-triangle/its-always-dangerous-to-believe-in-the-bills/

[shrader]

This is terrific: http://grantland.com...e-in-the-bills/

 

I skimmed it for now any may check it out in more detail later. The one little detail I noticed right off the start was the Mike Williams thing where a fan said he was late. I wonder if that's why he's going to get fined for his red socks.

 

Seriously, that's the only thing I took out of that game yesterday was his red socks. I was bored way too early in the game because it was obvious that they weren't going to stick with San Diego in the 1st quarter.

[Samson's Flow]

I agree with both nFreeman and Swamp. To say the officiating is the reason the Bills lost is silly, but to say that the calls weren't conveniently one sided yesterday is naive. There were several calls against the Bills where I just could NOT see the hold or whatever the ref called.

 

Can someone explain to me why Rivers' throwaway wasn't intentional grounding, but EJ's was? I thought EJ was being hit, and if you're being hit, it only needs to go back to the line of scrimmage? Also, I thought Rivers was still in the pocket when he threw his away. I'm not complaining about the difference, I just want to understand.

I won't purport to know the NFL rule book. My understanding is that Rivers' throwaway was allowed because he was a step or two outside the tackle box. A close call, but a reasonable one. EJ was not outside the tackle box when he chucked it to a place where there was no receiver. I don't think that whether or not you're being hit has much to do with anything. As for getting the ball back to the line of scrimmage, that may be right -- but the issue, I think, is whether you're outside the tackles when you throw it away.

My understanding of intentional grounding is as follows:

 

If the QB is still in the pocket (area between the two tackles) then the ball must land in the area of an eligible receiver. If not near an eligible receiver then it is Grounding. (the "nearness" is the judgement call of the ref). Occasionally you see the ball land behind the LOS when the intended target is a RB on a screen play which is not grounding due to the proximity of the intended eligible receiver.

 

If the QB scrables outside of the pocket (tackle box), then the only requirement is that the ball land past the line of scrimmage. The intendend target doesn't matter once the QB has left the pocket.The QB can throw the ball ten rows into the stands in this situation. The LOS rule prevents the QB from essentially 'spiking' the ball to prevent a pusuit sack.

 

The difference in the EJ grounding call compared to the Rivers one is that Rivers was governed by the second paragraph as he had escaped the pocket, whereas EJ just kept backpedaling and was still within the pocket.

Edited September 22, 2014 by Touched by Boyes

[TrueBlueGED]

Snachez and EJ are very similar read and accuracy wise. The difference is the Jets had a quarterback who tried to beat the other team. EJ is getting his yards from screens and slants (he might be dangerous if he could read and throw the out, but alas, that is not the quarterback we have). When the Bills do call on him to make an actual skilled passing play, he fails.

 

But I agree, if Mark Sanchez can beat Manning and Brady on consecutive weeks to make the AFCC, surely EJ can do the same. I'd certainly be willing to part with next years first round pick on those odds.

 

Sanchez career completion percentage: 55.1%. Manuel career completion percentage: 59.8%. Hey, if you can use straight up passer rating to say Russell Wilson is a top-12 QB, I can use straight up completion percentage to say Manuel is a fair amount more accurate :P

 

Secondly, no need for the snark. I'm not on the Manuel bandwagon (not that there is one...but I wouldn't be if there was!), so I feel we can peacefully disagree here.

 

Which is it? Did the refs cause the Bills to lose or not?

 

Because if they didn't cause the Bills to lose (which of course is the answer), there is no reason to talk about it. It's a waste of time and a loser's lament.

 

The Bills lost because they were outclassed on both sides of the ball -- not because SD got MAYBE one or 2 more close calls (based on the limited replays that were shown -- and who knows what the other camera angles showed).

 

 

 

What does "conveniently one sided" mean? Was there a conspiracy against the Bills?

 

Of course not.

 

The Bills got more penalties because they committed more penalties.

 

While I also tire of ref complaints, surely you're not insinuating refs are infallible. This stuff will even out over the long haul, but in one single game? Penalties can absolutely be incorrectly skewed, and there's no need to have a conspiracy to explain it.

Edited September 22, 2014 by TrueBluePhD

[LastPommerFan]

didn't mean to get snark (except the intentional mispelling of Sanchez). The draft trade is just pissing me off more and more each week. I'm having a hard time grasping just how good Watkins will have to be to make that trade "worth it". It would be tough to reconcile if we had a great quarterback. With EJ, it just makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

 

Sparty and the Irish are in the top 10 and the O's have clinched the AL east and I only have to hear about Jeter for another week, so I'm just going to focus on all those happy sports things :)

[wjag]

I may be in a minority here, but pretty much every time the linen hit the field, there was a Bill doing something stupid, SD played a cleaner game and ran the ball down their throats. They threw in enough passing to keep the defense off balance. The offense did not help with their limited drives in the first half. SD had a 17 play drive I think. You will not win many games when a team drives down on you for 17 plays.

 

My Grades.

 

OL - Grade D

DL - Grade C

LBs - Grade D

DBs - Grade D

RBs - Grade C

QB - Grade D

WRs - Grade D

TE - GRADE D

K - Grade C

 

That is why they lost. The Bills didn't win a single aspect of that game yesterday that mattered: Coaching, Defense, Offense, Special Teams.

[SwampD]

Which is it? Did the refs cause the Bills to lose or not?

 

Because if they didn't cause the Bills to lose (which of course is the answer), there is no reason to talk about it. It's a waste of time and a loser's lament.

 

The Bills lost because they were outclassed on both sides of the ball -- not because SD got MAYBE one or 2 more close calls (based on the limited replays that were shown -- and who knows what the other camera angles showed).

 

 

 

What does "conveniently one sided" mean? Was there a conspiracy against the Bills?

 

Of course not.

 

The Bills got more penalties because they committed more penalties.

Until you review the tape and go play by play, you can't say this with any certainty. There were two pick plays (one bordering on PI) in SD's first drive that weren't called.

 

And to be fair, I complained about the ref the past two wins as well.

Edited September 22, 2014 by SwampD

[Johnny DangerFace]

I think our punter, kickers looked good actually

[nfreeman]

Until you review the tape and go play by play, you can't say this with any certainty. There were two pick plays (one bordering on PI) in SD's first drive that weren't called.

 

And to be fair, I complained about the ref the past two wins as well.

 

Of course, but that door swings both ways -- you can't say the Bills got hosed unless you do the same thing.

 

Again: what is the point? Do you think there is a referee conspiracy against the Bills? Do you not think the calls even out over time? Do you think the refs have caused the Bills to stink for 15 years?

[SwampD]

Of course, but that door swings both ways -- you can't say the Bills got hosed unless you do the same thing.

 

Again: what is the point? Do you think there is a referee conspiracy against the Bills? Do you not think the calls even out over time? Do you think the refs have caused the Bills to stink for 15 years?

I've watched enough of the game to say the refs chose to keep the flags in their pockets a lot of plays for SD when they shouldn't have.

 

I don't think there is a conspiracy against the Bills, but there absolutely is bias for other teams. Like I've said upthread, you have to already be a good team to get that bias, and we haven't been good for an obscene amount of time. In a perfect world the calls would even out, but we all know it's not a perfect world. There will always be favored teams. If we all came up with lists of teams that were at either end of the spectrum I bet they would be pretty similar. Just because you choose not to complain about it doesn't mean it isn't real.

[TrueBlueGED]

didn't mean to get snark (except the intentional mispelling of Sanchez). The draft trade is just pissing me off more and more each week. I'm having a hard time grasping just how good Watkins will have to be to make that trade "worth it". It would be tough to reconcile if we had a great quarterback. With EJ, it just makes me feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

 

Sparty and the Irish are in the top 10 and the O's have clinched the AL east and I only have to hear about Jeter for another week, so I'm just going to focus on all those happy sports things :)

 

Other good news: Winston is only a few more brain cramps away from putting himself into draftable territory for us, even without a 1st round pick :)

[dEnnis the Menace]

Of course, but that door swings both ways -- you can't say the Bills got hosed unless you do the same thing.

 

Again: what is the point? Do you think there is a referee conspiracy against the Bills? Do you not think the calls even out over time? Do you think the refs have caused the Bills to stink for 15 years?

 

I'm not saying they got hosed, I'm just saying there were a lot of questionable calls that went against us this week. Is it the reason we lost? no, EJs decision making and inability to throw to the recievers as well as a piss poor gameplan by our OC were the reasons we lost, as well as a defense that just couldn't stop much this week.

 

I don't believe there's any sort of conspiracy against the Bills, I just think that there's games that have poor officiating (SEE also the GB/NYJ game last week). This game, in my opinion was one of those games where the refs were flag happy in one direction (and I'm not saying it was intentional either). A lot of them were deserved, but there were several that I was left really scratching my head.

 

And for the record, we got away with a lot during the Miami game that should've been called against us (i.e. PI/Holding) that Miami fans have every right to be upset with us about.

[SwampD]

On a completely unrelated note, when Freddie threw that halfback option pass, was I the only one who went,"Oh,... no...!" and thought about Travis Henry doing the same thing on Monday night against the Dolphins, marking the beginning of the decade+ long drain swirling.

Edited September 22, 2014 by SwampD

[nfreeman]

I've watched enough of the game to say the refs chose to keep the flags in their pockets a lot of plays for SD when they shouldn't have.

 

I don't think there is a conspiracy against the Bills, but there absolutely is bias for other teams. Like I've said upthread, you have to already be a good team to get that bias, and we haven't been good for an obscene amount of time. In a perfect world the calls would even out, but we all know it's not a perfect world. There will always be favored teams. If we all came up with lists of teams that were at either end of the spectrum I bet they would be pretty similar. Just because you choose not to complain about it doesn't mean it isn't real.

 

Let's put some facts on this.

 

2013 -- top 5 most penalized teams:

 

Seattle

Denver

Tampa

STL

San Francisco

 

Top 5 teams with the most penalties called on opponents:

 

Baltimore

Dallas

Arizona

KC

Buffalo

 

http://www.nflpenalties.com/index.php?&year=2013

 

So: the 2 Super Bowl teams, plus another league power, are 3 of the top-5 most penalized teams. And 3 non-glamor teams, including the Bills, are 3 of the teams benefiting most from these sinister dudes in stripes.

 

Once more, with feeling: the refs are far from perfect, but they're pretty good at their job, and their errors even out over time. The constant whining about the Bills always getting screwed over are silly and childish and lack any factual basis

 

I'm not saying they got hosed, I'm just saying there were a lot of questionable calls that went against us this week. Is it the reason we lost? no, EJs decision making and inability to throw to the recievers as well as a piss poor gameplan by our OC were the reasons we lost, as well as a defense that just couldn't stop much this week.

 

I don't believe there's any sort of conspiracy against the Bills, I just think that there's games that have poor officiating (SEE also the GB/NYJ game last week). This game, in my opinion was one of those games where the refs were flag happy in one direction (and I'm not saying it was intentional either). A lot of them were deserved, but there were several that I was left really scratching my head.

 

And for the record, we got away with a lot during the Miami game that should've been called against us (i.e. PI/Holding) that Miami fans have every right to be upset with us about.

 

Certainly there are games where more mistakes are made than usual. Yesterday could've been one of those games. But we can't know that without breaking down the film, and no one here has the ability or access to do that. And even if it was one of those games -- BFD. It's not the reason they lost and it's really neither here nor there.

[Johnny DangerFace]

I thought penalties were a big factor yesterday. The biggest? certainly not. With that being said, this wasn't any terrible reffing, it was just stupid penalties by the bills at stupid times.

[qwksndmonster]

The ref that called yesterday's game was the same one who called last weeks Bears-49ers game. Both games had terrible pace due to the sheer amount of penalties called. Our game wasn't half as bad as that Bears game, though. There were 2 separate stretches of 6 straight plays that ended in penalties.

 

Did I think the reffing in the Bills game was fair? Nope. Did I think that with fair reffing the Bills would have even come close? Nope. Has anybody said that? Because I haven't read it in this thread.

 

 

Also: SD is a good team. The sky is not falling.

 

 

...yet

[Hoss]

The sky can start falling if the team struggles next week... Texans are absolutely beatable. I see it as a near must-win early in the season.

[qwksndmonster]

The sky can start falling if the team struggles next week... Texans are absolutely beatable. I see it as a near must-win early in the season.

The sky will actually fall every time the Bills lose a game. It's just how the sky works in Buffalo.

[Wyldnwoody44]

 

The sky will actually fall every time the Bills lose a game. It's just how the sky works in Buffalo.

There is no more sky, about 6 years ago it fell down leaving only remnants of o zone..... One day I expect Pegula to copyright the sky and piece it back together, one day my friends

[SwampD]

Let's put some facts on this.

 

2013 -- top 5 most penalized teams:

 

Seattle

Denver

Tampa

STL

San Francisco

 

Top 5 teams with the most penalties called on opponents:

 

Baltimore

Dallas

Arizona

KC

Buffalo

 

http://www.nflpenalt....php?&year=2013

 

So: the 2 Super Bowl teams, plus another league power, are 3 of the top-5 most penalized teams. And 3 non-glamor teams, including the Bills, are 3 of the teams benefiting most from these sinister dudes in stripes.

 

Once more, with feeling: the refs are far from perfect, but they're pretty good at their job, and their errors even out over time. The constant whining about the Bills always getting screwed over are silly and childish and lack any factual basis

 

 

 

Certainly there are games where more mistakes are made than usual. Yesterday could've been one of those games. But we can't know that without breaking down the film, and no one here has the ability or access to do that. And even if it was one of those games -- BFD. It's not the reason they lost and it's really neither here nor there.

Totals for the year is misleading and pretty useless. You have to go team by team, and even then it's stupid. The Bills were penalized 6.88/g and their opponents 6.75/g. The Bills are penalized more than the teams they played. Stats are fun.

 

I wish I had your faith in the system and I wish I could ignore it like you can. I also wish the Bills were good enough to overcome bad officiating. Sigh.

[Hoss]

 

The Bills were penalized 6.88/g and their opponents 6.75/g. The Bills are penalized more than the teams they played.

 

Wow. .13 flags a game difference? That's not even enough material for a midget g-string.

[SwampD]

Wow. .13 flags a game difference? That's not even enough material for a midget g-string.

But when did that .13 flag come? On an important third down that was/n't converted, maybe?

[Hoss]

 

But when did that .13 flag come? On an important third down that was/n't converted, maybe?

 

.13 flags per game is two more flags in the entire season...