Iron Crotch Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 I invite you to take a closer look at the 2006 NHL draft Our own Chris Stewart was taken 4 slots ahead of Claude Giroux in that draft. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 So Ryan had his worst game with the series on the line? You don't say. Did you watch the game? Even the highlights? Or did you just lob in a criticism? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 Did you watch the game? Even the highlights? Or did you just lob in a criticism? I just lobbed it in. I didn't watch any of it. I guess I assumed that winning a playoff game with a 1.8 GAA and .929 save percentage was better than losing a deciding playoff game with a 5.0 GAA and .815 save percentage. My apologies. Well, we both know that's not the best way to judge how a goalie played, so I'll leave you to it, then. x shots on goal, x get by, what better way to evaluate a goalie? If you want to make it subjective, then maybe the goalie with the 18th best save percentage this season actually deserves the Vezina more than whoever will end up winning it. There's a place for subjectivity when evaluating goals, sure. A few really aren't the goalie's fault. I think the vast majority are fair game. You're really just being contrarian and obtuse, and I've never wanted you more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 While I agree that stats aren't the best way to judge a goalie, or any player for that matter, I'm with PA. Miller played really well in the first two periods, but he broke down in the third. The Sharp goal was all on him. Normally you can't say that about a breakaway, but his teammate mauled Sharp (to the point of a penalty) and Sharp just pushed the puck towards him and Miller misplayed it horribly. Then the dam broke. A few tips that were nearly impossible, but Miller never made THE save this series. He never bailed his teammates out which is what a goalie should be doing in the playoffs. Look, you're going to face elite talent in the playoffs and that talent is going to beat out your defense from time-to-time. It's the goalies job to do the spectacular or the team will be going home. Miller did the bare minimum for the most part and St. Louis is done. We don't need to excuse Miller's play anymore, he's elsewhere. His team never supported him with the goal production, but his play didn't help either way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 Why were there many here, well me, that thought Miller was the Sabres MVP this season for keeping the scores somewhat respectable, while playing behind an AHL squad. And, no I don't want him back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 You're really just being contrarian and obtuse, and I've never wanted you more. Now this is funny stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etiennep99 Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 I invite you to take a closer look at the 2006 NHL draft 2006 NHL draft, per Hockeydb, the top 5 point producers were: Rank, Draft Position Name 1 4 Nicklas Backstrom 2 5 Phil Kessel 3 3 Jonathan Toews 4 22 Claude Giroux 5 2 Jordan Staal The Flyers did well in getting Giroux at 22. There were other lower draft picks that did well such as Lucic at 50 who is #6. Lucic is a great player, but is he a game changer? Backstrom, Kessel, or Toews are players who can carry a team. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 2006 NHL draft, per Hockeydb, the top 5 point producers were: Rank, Draft Position Name 1 4 Nicklas Backstrom 2 5 Phil Kessel 3 3 Jonathan Toews 4 22 Claude Giroux 5 2 Jordan Staal The Flyers did well in getting Giroux at 22. There were other lower draft picks that did well such as Lucic at 50 who is #6. Lucic is a great player, but is he a game changer? Backstrom, Kessel, or Toews are players who can carry a team. I'd say only Toews fits that category Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 2006 NHL draft, per Hockeydb, the top 5 point producers were: Rank, Draft Position Name 1 4 Nicklas Backstrom 2 5 Phil Kessel 3 3 Jonathan Toews 4 22 Claude Giroux 5 2 Jordan Staal The Flyers did well in getting Giroux at 22. There were other lower draft picks that did well such as Lucic at 50 who is #6. Lucic is a great player, but is he a game changer? Backstrom, Kessel, or Toews are players who can carry a team. I think his point was that the Blues had the first pick in that draft. Tanking is only as good as your ability to pick the gamechanger. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
etiennep99 Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 Kessel carried the USA Olympics squad. Kessel carried the Leafs. Their late season collapse is sympomatic of a team that over-relies on a few players. Backstrom has to try to make up for the player that is Ovechkin and a horrible lack of depth. I think his point was that the Blues had the first pick in that draft. Tanking is only as good as your ability to pick the gamechanger. touche'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 I think his point was that the Blues had the first pick in that draft. Tanking is only as good as your ability to pick the gamechanger. And they drafted a defender 1st overall... how interesting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 And they drafted a defender 1st overall... how interesting. Yes, unless Bobby Orr is available. You never take a blueliner with #1. Ever. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 Yes, unless Bobby Orr is available. You never take a blueliner with #1. Ever. Which brings us to this question, if Florida takes Sam (either) do we take Ekblad at #2 or the left over Sam? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 And they drafted a defender 1st overall... how interesting. And they turned that draft pick into Shattenkirk, Stewart (-> Miller), and Rattie. There's still a whole lot of uncertainty there, but I do like the return. At this point it all hinges on Rattie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 Which brings us to this question, if Florida takes Sam (either) do we take Ekblad at #2 or the left over Sam? The marginal difference among NHL Defensemen is meaningless compared to the marginal difference among top NHL forwards. If any of the top forwards in a draft remain, you take the forward every time. And they turned that draft pick into Shattenkirk, Stewart (-> Miller), and Rattie. There's still a whole lot of uncertainty there, but I do like the return. At this point it all hinges on Rattie. a first round pick and Johnson for Shattenkirk, Nothing (assuming Miller and Ott move on) and Rattie. None of this amounts to a successful #1 pick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 The marginal difference among NHL Defensemen is meaningless compared to the marginal difference among top NHL forwards. If any of the top forwards in a draft remain, you take the forward every time. The development curve is so much slower for defensemen. Short of a guy like Doughty, most of these guys take a significant amount of time to establish themselves. So which pick you decide to make really depends on what situation your team is in. If you're hoping for a guy who can step in sooner and deliver, go with the forward. But if you have the luxury of sitting back and waiting for a guy to develop, you just might want to take that highly ranked d-man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 The development curve is so much slower for defensemen. Short of a guy like Doughty, most of these guys take a significant amount of time to establish themselves. So which pick you decide to make really depends on what situation your team is in. If you're hoping for a guy who can step in sooner and deliver, go with the forward. But if you have the luxury of sitting back and waiting for a guy to develop, you just might want to take that highly ranked d-man. My contention is that, even given time to develop, a top forward will almost always improve your team more than a top defenseman. In baseball terms, the WAR of the top 30 defensemen are probably all significantly lower than the WAR of the top 30 forwards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Crotch Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 Many 1st round d-dmen turn into great players... but you can certainly find very good d-men later in the draft. Looking at this year's three Norris candidates: Zdeno Chara was a 3rd round pick, Duncan Keith was a 2nd round pick, and Shea Weber was a 2nd round pick. Conversely most of the top scorers were 1st round picks, although many were mid-to-late 1st rounders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 List of top 2 defenders taken in every draft since 2006 2006: Eric Johnson - 1st Ty Wishart - 16th 2007: Thomas Hickey - 4th Karl Alzner - 5th 2008: Drew Doughty - 2nd Zack Boogosian - 3rd 2009: Victor Hedman - 2nd Oliver Ekman-Larsson - 6th 2010: Eric Gubrandson - 3rd Dylan Mcllrath - 10th 2011: Adam Larsson - 4th Dougie Hamilton - 9th 2012: Ryan Murray - 2nd Griffin Reinhart - 4th List of top 2 forwards taken in every draft since 2006 2006: Jordan Staal - 2nd Jonathan Toews - 3rd 2007: Pat Kane - 1st James Van Riemsdyk - 2nd 2008: Steve Stamkos - 1st Nikita Filatov - 6th 2009: John Tavares - 1st Matt Duchene - 3rd 2010: Taylor Hall - 1st Tyler Seguin - 2nd 2011: Ryan Nugent-Hopkins -1st Gabriel Landeskog - 2nd 2012: Nail Yakupov - 1st Alex Galchenyuk - 3rd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 ^That right there. We're taking a Sam. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 List of top 2 defenders taken in every draft since 2006 2006: Eric Johnson - 1st Ty Wishart - 16th 2007: Thomas Hickey - 4th Karl Alzner - 5th 2008: Drew Doughty - 2nd Zack Boogosian - 3rd 2009: Victor Hedman - 2nd Oliver Ekman-Larsson - 6th 2010: Eric Gubrandson - 3rd Dylan Mcllrath - 10th 2011: Adam Larsson - 4th Dougie Hamilton - 9th 2012: Ryan Murray - 2nd Griffin Reinhart - 4th List of top 2 forwards taken in every draft since 2006 2006: Jordan Staal - 2nd Jonathan Toews - 3rd 2007: Pat Kane - 1st James Van Riemsdyk - 2nd 2008: Steve Stamkos - 1st Nikita Filatov - 6th 2009: John Tavares - 1st Matt Duchene - 3rd 2010: Taylor Hall - 1st Tyler Seguin - 2nd 2011: Ryan Nugent-Hopkins -1st Gabriel Landeskog - 2nd 2012: Nail Yakupov - 1st Alex Galchenyuk - 3rd Fan-######-tastic. a first round pick and Johnson for Shattenkirk, Nothing (assuming Miller and Ott move on) and Rattie. None of this amounts to a successful #1 pick. Disagree, kind of. Individually, no. But Shattenkirk is a great dman. Not just good, he's great. Rattie could be something special, but we'll see about that. Stewart worked well for them in the time he was there so it's not like his value is zero just because he's no longer there. Same with Miller and Ott's time there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 (edited) Kessel carried the USA Olympics squad. Kessel carried the Leafs. Their late season collapse is sympomatic of a team that over-relies on a few players. Backstrom has to try to make up for the player that is Ovechkin and a horrible lack of depth. That's also where he gets almost all of his points from. Still isn't even close to Toews production, and Toews isn't usually line-mates with the best player on that team, Kane. Backstrom has had great players on Capitals teams, they won the President's one year IIRC, but they wen't nowhere. Toews has been a monster in this playoffs, he has carried his team. Kessel is a great player, but he's a good complimentary piece, not a core piece IMO. He's a winger first off, and his defensive play, although not terrible, isn't good enough to make him a complete player. Toews does everything. He consistently hits ~30 goals/season, he's the captain of a 2-time Stanley Cup team, and he plays a 200 ft game. He makes everyone around him better. Edited April 28, 2014 by WildCard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 That's also where he gets almost all of his points from. Still isn't even close to Toews production, and Toews isn't usually line-mates with the best player on that team, Kane. Backstrom has had great players on Capitals teams, they won the President's one year IIRC, but they wen't nowhere. Toews has been a monster in this playoffs, he has carried his team. Kessel is a great player, but he's a good complimentary piece, not a core piece IMO. He's a winger first off, and his defensive play, although not terrible, isn't good enough to make him a complete player. Toews does everything. He consistently hits ~30 goals/season, he's the captain of a 2-time Stanley Cup team, and he plays a 200 ft game. He makes everyone around him better. Kessel is symptomatic of Toronto's problem. Building a team from the outside in is a sure recipe for inconsistency. When it works it is beautiful, but without controlling center ice, other teams can dictate too much of the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 Kessel is symptomatic of Toronto's problem. Building a team from the outside in is a sure recipe for inconsistency. When it works it is beautiful, but without controlling center ice, other teams can dictate too much of the game. Darcy Reiger tried to build from the wing in once. We are still paying for that stupidity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted April 28, 2014 Report Share Posted April 28, 2014 Darcy Reiger tried to build from the wing in once. We are still paying for that stupidity. True. He went against his own formula. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.