qwksndmonster Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 I was half-joking in the sense that it's of course absurd to take a stance "he had 1 assist in limited time, feed him more!" My point was rather the inverse of that: other players are getting fed ice time upon ice time, and not doing a damn thing with it...and get fed more ice time. Meanwhile, Grigs doesn't do much of anything with his ice time, and he gets a ticket to the press box. On the worst team in the league that should be all about developing kids (or at least trying to figure out what they have), this approach seems insane to me. Aye. The whole "he has to earn his ice time!" stuff doesn't apply much when Stafford gets top 6 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Aye. The whole "he has to earn his ice time!" stuff doesn't apply much when Stafford gets top 6 minutes. Exactly. It's so annoying that he's the only one required to "earn his ice time." Give him a chance to earn it, at least. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 the part you are missing is the draft is a complete roll of the dice and only small part of putting together a championship caliber team. Yes, a few top picks like Kane and Toews is a great jump start. However, Chicago is Chicago because of great trades, FA signings, and overall decision making. We could end up being Edmonton just as easy as Chicago. Then what??? 4 years from now you say "that didn't work" and start over again? Chicago has added a few extra pieces through trade and free agency (most notably, Sharp and Hossa). Otherwise, they have drafted incredibly well. Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Bickell, Hjalmarsson, Crawford... these are all guys they drafted. Add to that guys like Sharp and Versteeg who were just young developmental talents when they traded for them (the first time around for Versteeg). They draft well, but they also develop their young guys probably just about better than anyone right now. Take a look at the not yet core young guys filling up the rest of their roster, guys like Saad, Shaw, and Kruger. These are all draft picks as well. If you want a model for how to build through the draft, there it is right there. They damn well better find someone in the organization to interview for the GM job, if for nothing else than to pick his mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Chicago has added a few extra pieces through trade and free agency (most notably, Sharp and Hossa). Otherwise, they have drafted incredibly well. Toews, Kane, Keith, Seabrook, Bickell, Hjalmarsson, Crawford... these are all guys they drafted. Add to that guys like Sharp and Versteeg who were just young developmental talents when they traded for them (the first time around for Versteeg). They draft well, but they also develop their young guys probably just about better than anyone right now. Take a look at the not yet core young guys filling up the rest of their roster, guys like Saad, Shaw, and Kruger. These are all draft picks as well. If you want a model for how to build through the draft, there it is right there. They damn well better find someone in the organization to interview for the GM job, if for nothing else than to pick his mind. I continue to look for the article - USA Today? Forbes? - that quoted three very senior pro sports personnel guys who said that, on balance, draft success is ~70% or more a matter of luck - that everyone has access to the same information, everyone has good talent evaluators, and yeah some teams have a better idea of how to go about assembling a roster and strategizing on how and where to spend, but, mostly, it's luck. Dumb luck, at that. I can't say whether that's the truth, but it sure did give me food for thought. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 I continue to look for the article - USA Today? Forbes? - that quoted three very senior pro sports personnel guys who said that, on balance, draft success is ~70% or more a matter of luck - that everyone has access to the same information, everyone has good talent evaluators, and yeah some teams have a better idea of how to go about assembling a roster and strategizing on how and where to spend, but, mostly, it's luck. Dumb luck, at that. I can't say whether that's the truth, but it sure did give me food for thought. I'd say this holds true after the top 5 picks who almost all become household names. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 I'd say this holds true after the top 5 picks who almost all become household names. I agree. I think these articles don't look at that. They say things like the first round only has 50% of the players become regular NHL guys! Which is true but the top 10 players drafted its like (example numbers, I do not have the actual stats) 80% and the top 5 is like 90% and the top 3 is 99% become NHL regulars. Are their misses? Absolutely, but this notion that we will fail in the draft or at best have a 50/50 shot is wrong. Also in the last 10 years or so the Canadian Juniors and USHL as well as the Swedish and Finnish leagues have all gotten much better at developing talent and helping guys grow. These players are told what works in the NHL and what won't so they come in better prepared. It is kinda like in college football drafting guys from pro style systems. These junior leagues and SWE and FIN leagues are full of young players with great skills who are being groomed for the most part for a shot at the NHL. This is part of the reason younger guys are finding NHL success. I would hazard a guess that in 10 years when we look back at the 2008-2014 drafts we notice that quite a few of the top 5 are regular NHL guys. Lets just look at 2008-2010 top 5 draftees. 2008: Stamkos Doughty Boogosian Pientrangelo Schenn 2009: Tavares Hedman Duchene Kane Schenn 2010: Hall Seguin Gudbranson Johansen Niederreiter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrico Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Yep I agree with Liger. That's why I'm all in on the Tank over the next two years. Picking in the top 3 in a draft is far superior than picking 10th or 12th. Are there rare exceptions? Sure. But 99 out of 100 times the guys getting picked in the top 3 are far better players than the guys drafted in the middle of the first or even around 10. Give us a top 3 pick this year and next year and the odds of us having a successful rebuild are much much higher than us drafting 8th and 10th over the next two years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robviously Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 That's is all I am holding onto but it still doesn't changed the fact that I have not seen one shift where I said, wow, this kid has it. This is still where I'm at with Grigorenko too. I hope next year we put him in Rochester for at least half of the season and play him in all situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallawaySabres Posted December 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 I think we can add Ennis to the building blocks of this team again. So here we go for top 3 lines next year.... this is a longshot but would it not be interesting? Vanek - #1 pick - Girgs Ennis - Hodgson - Armia Stafford - Grigo - Foligno Pick up the best and meanest 4th line in hockey with cap $$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 I think we can add Ennis to the building blocks of this team again. So here we go for top 3 lines next year.... this is a longshot but would it not be interesting? Vanek - #1 pick - Girgs Ennis - Hodgson - Armia Stafford - Grigo - Foligno Pick up the best and meanest 4th line in hockey with cap $$ Uh... Vanek. Really? Also, that lineup is still really really bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 I think we can add Ennis to the building blocks of this team again. So here we go for top 3 lines next year.... this is a longshot but would it not be interesting? Vanek - #1 pick - Girgs Ennis - Hodgson - Armia Stafford - Grigo - Foligno Pick up the best and meanest 4th line in hockey with cap $$ Get Stafford out of there and I don't hate it. Why not dump him and resign Moulson? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CallawaySabres Posted December 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Uh... Vanek. Really? Also, that lineup is still really really bad. It's not gonna look great any way you slice it but tell me that would not be intriguing to build on. You add the young defenders into the mix next year and you never know. You want to take Vanek out and overpay someone else in FA, fine with me. Talent will be on this team, I have no doubt, but they HAVE to add some scorers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robviously Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Get Stafford out of there and I don't hate it. Why not dump him and resign Moulson? Dump Stafford for sure. I'm also not sure we need to immediately bring our first round pick to the NHL next season. Give him a few game and then send him down. We still need to give minutes to Grigorenko and Larsson next season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Dump Stafford for sure. I'm also not sure we need to immediately bring our first round pick to the NHL next season. Give him a few game and then send him down. We still need to give minutes to Grigorenko and Larsson next season. Not sure where the cap floor will be next season but if they lose Moulson, Miller and Ott they might néed to keep Stafford and (gulp) Leino to reach it. Unless they throw some stupid contracts to their own RFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 It's not gonna look great any way you slice it but tell me that would not be intriguing to build on. You add the young defenders into the mix next year and you never know. You want to take Vanek out and overpay someone else in FA, fine with me. Talent will be on this team, I have no doubt, but they HAVE to add some scorers. I'm not intrigued by the idea of bringing Vanek back, at all. I'm also no intrigued to have Girgensons on the first line, or really, in the top six at all. Not yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Not sure where the cap floor will be next season but if they lose Moulson, Miller and Ott they might néed to keep Stafford and (gulp) Leino to reach it. Unless they throw some stupid contracts to their own RFA. $16 million below the cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drunkard Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Dump Stafford for sure. I'm also not sure we need to immediately bring our first round pick to the NHL next season. Give him a few game and then send him down. We still need to give minutes to Grigorenko and Larsson next season. Grigorenko will be 20 next season so I hope they put him in Rochester and feed him minutes in all situations. He should only play in Buffalo if he's killing it down there for an extended period and the Sabres need to call him up in case of injury or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 I think we can add Ennis to the building blocks of this team again. So here we go for top 3 lines next year.... this is a longshot but would it not be interesting? Vanek - #1 pick - Girgs Ennis - Hodgson - Armia Stafford - Grigo - Foligno Pick up the best and meanest 4th line in hockey with cap $$ I think there is zero possibility of Vanek signing here. I also think it's 97%-99% likely that both Griggy and Armia spend more than 80% of next season with Rochester, and that whoever the Sabres draft stays in juniors next season. I'm hoping Luker earns a top 9 forward slot and think there's a reasonable possibility that this happens. Bottom line is that they are going to need to add a couple of forwards in FA or trade this summer if they want to improve the top 6. Some possible UFA targets at forward: Ryan Callahan (RW) Paul Stastny © Alex Steen (LW) Radim Vrbata (RW) Marian Gaborik (RW) I'll take Callahan, Stastny and either Vrbata or Gaborik for my top 6, plus sign Phaneuf, re-sign Miller, Ott and Tallinder and buy out Leino and Stafford. Then, if a good forward pops loose in trade, use the accumulated picks/prospects/defensemen to get him. That would yield: Foligno-Stastny-Callahan Zemgus-Ennis-Vrbata/Gaborik Luker-Hodgson-Ott Kaleta-other 4th liner-other 4th liner Ehrhoff-Phaneuf Myers-Tallinder McNabb-Pysyk Now you've got a real top 6 plus a 3rd line that can score. Still no truly elite players, but real NHL top 6 forwards, leadership, experience, scoring depth and a good amount of size and grit throughout the lineup, including on D. Plus a really good goalie that the team knows it can count on. PLF -- my wishes are clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 I think there is zero possibility of Vanek signing here. I also think it's 97%-99% likely that both Griggy and Armia spend more than 80% of next season with Rochester, and that whoever the Sabres draft stays in juniors next season. I'm hoping Luker earns a top 9 forward slot and think there's a reasonable possibility that this happens. Bottom line is that they are going to need to add a couple of forwards in FA or trade this summer if they want to improve the top 6. Some possible UFA targets at forward: Ryan Callahan (RW) Paul Stastny © Alex Steen (LW) Radim Vrbata (RW) Marian Gaborik (RW) I'll take Callahan, Stastny and either Vrbata or Gaborik for my top 6, plus sign Phaneuf, re-sign Miller, Ott and Tallinder and buy out Leino and Stafford. Then, if a good forward pops loose in trade, use the accumulated picks/prospects/defensemen to get him. That would yield: Foligno-Stastny-Callahan Zemgus-Ennis-Vrbata/Gaborik Luker-Hodgson-Ott Kaleta-other 4th liner-other 4th liner Ehrhoff-Phaneuf Myers-Tallinder McNabb-Pysyk Now you've got a real top 6 plus a 3rd line that can score. Still no truly elite players, but real NHL top 6 forwards, leadership, experience, scoring depth and a good amount of size and grit throughout the lineup, including on D. Plus a really good goalie that the team knows it can count on. PLF -- my wishes are clear. I'd be willing to overpay Callahan by millions to get him on the team for the rebuild. I'm talking $8M/yr for 5-6 years or something like that. That way we have him as a leader for the rebuild and the start of the "good times" and he can be cleared when the 1st round picks are coming into UFA territory and will need their own $$. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Looks like a minimum of $35 to 40 million a year for at least five years, not to mention outbidding everyone else on virtually every big name player. But what the hell, go big. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 I think we can add Ennis to the building blocks of this team again. So here we go for top 3 lines next year.... this is a longshot but would it not be interesting? Vanek - #1 pick - Girgs Ennis - Hodgson - Armia Stafford - Grigo - Foligno Pick up the best and meanest 4th line in hockey with cap $$ Not to bag on this or anything. Armia will need to stay another year in Rochester. That is what my gut says and from the odd stuff I have seen and heard. Vanek wont sign here. Grigorenko should be a center next year but if not he may go to rochester. Depending on who we draft our #1 pick could be on the roster but he won't be the #1 center. At best he will be #2 behind Hodgson. That means we still need 2 RW's for this team next year. I would target Callahan obviously and Vrbata. I would go to over the top on a Callahan contract because he seems to get injured a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nfreeman Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 I'd be willing to overpay Callahan by millions to get him on the team for the rebuild. I'm talking $8M/yr for 5-6 years or something like that. That way we have him as a leader for the rebuild and the start of the "good times" and he can be cleared when the 1st round picks are coming into UFA territory and will need their own $$. Looks like a minimum of $35 to 40 million a year for at least five years, not to mention outbidding everyone else on virtually every big name player. But what the hell, go big. They've got $28.7MM in payroll for next year, with a $71.1MM cap -- so $42.4MM to work with. If they buy out Leino and Stafford, that's another $8.5MM -- for a total of $50.9MM. So maybe: Ott -- $3.5MM Ennis -- $4MM Foligno -- $2MM Luker -- $1MM Tallinder -- $3MM McNabb -- $1MM Miller -- $6.5MM Callahan -- $7MM Stastny -- $7MM Vrbata -- $5MM Phaneuf -- $8.5MM That's $49.5MM for the RFAs and the UFAs, with, I think, enough of a premium over market value to get the UFAs to come here. Go get 'em Patty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LGR4GM Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 I actually think Vrbata might fit well on this team as he has played a lot of hockey in Phoenix without a legit center and could still produce. He would be near the top of my list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 Not sure where the cap floor will be next season but if they lose Moulson, Miller and Ott they might néed to keep Stafford and (gulp) Leino to reach it. Unless they throw some stupid contracts to their own RFA. This was discussed by whoever Sylvester's guest was at about 1030 am today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Derrico Posted December 13, 2013 Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 They've got $28.7MM in payroll for next year, with a $71.1MM cap -- so $42.4MM to work with. If they buy out Leino and Stafford, that's another $8.5MM -- for a total of $50.9MM. So maybe: Ott -- $3.5MM Ennis -- $4MM Foligno -- $2MM Luker -- $1MM Tallinder -- $3MM McNabb -- $1MM Miller -- $6.5MM Callahan -- $7MM Stastny -- $7MM Vrbata -- $5MM Phaneuf -- $8.5MM That's $49.5MM for the RFAs and the UFAs, with, I think, enough of a premium over market value to get the UFAs to come here. Go get 'em Patty. I love everything but Phaneuf. NO chance I'm giving him 8.5 mil per. We've got some good young Dmen I'd happily give the ice time too and just focus on forwards. Next year we have The Hoff, Myers, Pysyk, Risto, Zadorov and Weber. Possibly also McNabb fighting for a spot and is McBain still under contract? Although Phaneuf is a big name and plays decently physical with a hard shot from the point he still has way too many giveaways in his own end to really be trusted. If I'm paying anyone over 7 mil a year it better be a top 6 forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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