off topic Breaking Bad *SPOILER ALERT*

[SwampD]

then you don't see Walt's inner workings and how he adapts & manipulates every situation & person . If you don't see his evolution and depth of character (good, bad, or indifferent), then I feel you are really missing a golden opportunity

One's true character is shown when tested through adversity, not when things are easy. Luckily for us, we get to see 5 seasons of watching Walt fail that test.

 

I also just want to say that I hate all of you. I have so much other stuff that I have to do (too much to list, but finishing the Sabres/Billy Joel song among it), but because of this thread, I have just finished season 1.

Edited August 15, 2013 by SwampD

[spndnchz]

 

One's true character is shown when tested through adversity, not when things are easy. Luckily for us, we get to see 5 seasons of watching Walt fail that test.

 

I also just want to say that I hate all of you. I have so much other stuff that I have to do (too much to list, but finishing the Sabres/Billy Joel song among it), but because of this thread, I have just finished season 1.

 

Slacker.

[SarasotaSabre]

One's true character is shown when tested through adversity, not when things are easy. Luckily for us, we get to see 5 seasons of watching Walt fail that test.

 

I also just want to say that I hate all of you. I have so much other stuff that I have to do (too much to list, but finishing the Sabres/Billy Joel song among it), but because of this thread, I have just finished season 1.

 

By character it would seem as if you are defining the word as the positive traits of a person's being; note, when I used the term "evolution and depth of character (good, bad, or indifferent), I was referring to entire sum of a character's metamorphosis over time - defined by personality and actions.

[Robviously]

then you don't see Walt's inner workings and how he adapts & manipulates every situation & person . If you don't see his evolution and depth of character (good, bad, or indifferent), then I feel you are really missing a golden opportunity

Adapting and manipulating every situation and person is what Walt does. It's ALL he does. But he's not complex.

 

He's a guy who initially wanted to do something bad for a good reason. Then he did a little more bad. Then a little more. Because there was a lot of "bad" to him all along and he gave into it over the course of about three seasons and has pretty much been a monster since the end of S3.

 

It's a masterful performance by Cranston but the character isn't very complex. He's not struggling with who he is or what he should be doing. He used to do some mental gymnastics to justify everything, but that stopped a couple seasons ago.

 

Breaking Bad is a study in the banality of evil -- how once you knowingly do the wrong thing, it becomes easier and easier to move in that direction. And where that eventually gets you. The book (and movie) A Simple Plan covers this amazingly well too. It's a man sliding into hell and justifying it as he goes.

[darksabre]

 

Adapting and manipulating every situation and person is what Walt does. It's ALL he does. But he's not complex.

 

He's a guy who initially wanted to do something bad for a good reason. Then he did a little more bad. Then a little more. Because there was a lot of "bad" to him all along and he gave into it over the course of about three seasons and has pretty much been a monster since the end of S3.

 

It's a masterful performance by Cranston but the character isn't very complex. He's not struggling with who he is or what he should be doing. He used to do some mental gymnastics to justify everything, but that stopped a couple seasons ago.

 

Breaking Bad is a study in the banality of evil -- how once you knowingly do the wrong thing, it becomes easier and easier to move in that direction. And where that eventually gets you. The book (and movie) A Simple Plan covers this amazingly well too. It's a man sliding into hell and justifying it as he goes.

 

Nailed it.

[Jeanbe]

Adapting and manipulating every situation and person is what Walt does. It's ALL he does. But he's not complex.

 

He's a guy who initially wanted to do something bad for a good reason. Then he did a little more bad. Then a little more. Because there was a lot of "bad" to him all along and he gave into it over the course of about three seasons and has pretty much been a monster since the end of S3.

 

It's a masterful performance by Cranston but the character isn't very complex. He's not struggling with who he is or what he should be doing. He used to do some mental gymnastics to justify everything, but that stopped a couple seasons ago.

 

Breaking Bad is a study in the banality of evil -- how once you knowingly do the wrong thing, it becomes easier and easier to move in that direction. And where that eventually gets you. The book (and movie) A Simple Plan covers this amazingly well too. It's a man sliding into hell and justifying it as he goes.

 

Totally agree. I said to a co-worker, who got me hooked on this show, that he is so manipulative. She didn't see that at all. But then again, I'm 52 and she is 25. Cranston is brilliant in this role but I don't feel sorry for him at all. Even if the cancer returned. I feel for everyone close to him.

 

I love this show. It's amazing that Jesse is the one with a soul in this show.

[SarasotaSabre]

Adapting and manipulating every situation and person is what Walt does. It's ALL he does. But he's not complex.

 

He's a guy who initially wanted to do something bad for a good reason. Then he did a little more bad. Then a little more. Because there was a lot of "bad" to him all along and he gave into it over the course of about three seasons and has pretty much been a monster since the end of S3.

 

It's a masterful performance by Cranston but the character isn't very complex. He's not struggling with who he is or what he should be doing. He used to do some mental gymnastics to justify everything, but that stopped a couple seasons ago.

 

Breaking Bad is a study in the banality of evil -- how once you knowingly do the wrong thing, it becomes easier and easier to move in that direction. And where that eventually gets you. The book (and movie) A Simple Plan covers this amazingly well too. It's a man sliding into hell and justifying it as he goes.

 

I respectfully say that we agree to disagree. I cannot believe on any intellectual level that someone (....in this case, you & drk4sabre) would have zero appreciation for Walt's complexity. Again, a gross oversimplication of him as merely a drug lord who knows to justify his evil choices. You see to portray him as a Tony Montana; in this vein it is very easy to see why Scarface was a 170 minute movie, while BB is a multi-year, layered drama.

 

Let me try to prove my point further with some examples:

 

A person with no complexity, as you put it, would be devoid of:

• extreme ego, hubris, arrogance & invulnerability/invincibility; witness his behavior after disposing of Gus Fring;
  
• Walt's evolving relationship with Jesse; part business-only, part paternalistic, part distrust/disregard for Jesse as a drug user himself
  
• any ability to concoct schemes to absolve himself of any involvement in the high-grade meth racket...i.e., Walt calling Hank to falsely tell him Marie has been involved in a serious car accident;
  
• the extreme guilt of being partially responsible for Jane's death and that impact on her father as an air traffic controller who caused a plane crash as a result;
  
• Walt demonstrates an underlying humanity even when making the most devious, most terrible decisions -
  
• It is clear from the progression of the series that WW goes from being a protagonist to an antagonist; you don't pull this off by not having a complexity of character
  

I will close with this:

 

"Walter is almost as good at self-justification as he is at cooking meth, and over the course of the series, he has not hesitated to give high-minded reasons for his lowest actions. In his own mind, he remains a righteous figure, an apostle of family values, free enterprise and scientific progress."

 

The last bolded line is entirely indicative of a deep, complex mind.......

 

My reponse to your post is not a tit-for-tat, right vs. wrong argument; I am just respectfully disagreeing with your assessment.

[qwksndmonster]

I'm confused. Most of that is just rehashing that Walt has a slow burning character arc. Just because a character is well defined and has had a complex path does not mean the character is complex.

[SwampD]

A person with no complexity, as you put it, would be devoid of:

 

• extreme ego, hubris, arrogance & invulnerability/invincibility; witness his behavior after disposing of Gus Fring;
  

 

I pretty much believe the complete opposite of this.

 

 

When it comes down to it,... when you really think about it, Walt killed a guy with a bike lock and sells Meth, a drug that decimates it's users and the people around them. Do I really give a squirt whether or not he's complex. He's a piece of ##it!

[SarasotaSabre]

I'm confused. Most of that is just rehashing that Walt has a slow burning character arc. Just because a character is well defined and has had a complex path does not mean the character is complex.

 

yes, it does appear you are confused - I thought I laid it out with a lot of detail. You and I clearly have different opinions on what "character" means.

[SarasotaSabre]

 

I pretty much believe the complete opposite of this.

 

 

When it comes down to it,... when you really think about it, Walt killed a guy with a bike lock and sells Meth, a drug that decimates it's users and the people around them. Do I really give a squirt whether or not he's complex. He's a piece of ##it!

 

wow, holy oversimplification Batman - sounds like you think this show is nothing more than a storyline about an evil drug.

 

To the part that is bolded, is that what you really think this show is all about? I almost feel sorry for you in that this show is about way more than this.

 

I am NOT trying to glorify Walt or the illicit drug trade - but if you have such a problem with him being a piece of ##it (...how eloquent...))), then why, may I ask, do you even bother watching?

[SwampD]

wow, holy oversimplification Batman - sounds like you think this show is nothing more than a storyline about an evil drug.

 

To the part that is bolded, is that what you really think this show is all about? I almost feel sorry for you in that this show is about way more than this.

 

I am NOT trying to glorify Walt or the illicit drug trade - but if you have such a problem with him being a piece of ##it (...how eloquent...))), then why, may I ask, do you even bother watching?

While Walt may be reprehensible, boy, it's a good show and they sure spin a fine yarn (although, Hank is a little cartoonish in the early episodes).

 

If it was during the hockey season I probably wouldn't have the time to watch it, but it's the summer and, what the hell.

[Robviously]

I respectfully say that we agree to disagree. I cannot believe on any intellectual level that someone (....in this case, you & drk4sabre) would have zero appreciation for Walt's complexity. Again, a gross oversimplication of him as merely a drug lord who knows to justify his evil choices. You see to portray him as a Tony Montana; in this vein it is very easy to see why Scarface was a 170 minute movie, while BB is a multi-year, layered drama.

 

Let me try to prove my point further with some examples:

 

A person with no complexity, as you put it, would be devoid of:

• extreme ego, hubris, arrogance & invulnerability/invincibility; witness his behavior after disposing of Gus Fring;
  
• Walt's evolving relationship with Jesse; part business-only, part paternalistic, part distrust/disregard for Jesse as a drug user himself
  
• any ability to concoct schemes to absolve himself of any involvement in the high-grade meth racket...i.e., Walt calling Hank to falsely tell him Marie has been involved in a serious car accident;
  
• the extreme guilt of being partially responsible for Jane's death and that impact on her father as an air traffic controller who caused a plane crash as a result;
  
• Walt demonstrates an underlying humanity even when making the most devious, most terrible decisions -
  
• It is clear from the progression of the series that WW goes from being a protagonist to an antagonist; you don't pull this off by not having a complexity of character
  

I will close with this:

 

"Walter is almost as good at self-justification as he is at cooking meth, and over the course of the series, he has not hesitated to give high-minded reasons for his lowest actions. In his own mind, he remains a righteous figure, an apostle of family values, free enterprise and scientific progress."

 

The last bolded line is entirely indicative of a deep, complex mind.......

 

My reponse to your post is not a tit-for-tat, right vs. wrong argument; I am just respectfully disagreeing with your assessment.

I bolded a line at the top about how *I'm* supposedly trying to portray him as Tony Montana. Vince Gilligan (the creator and show runner) has said it's a show about "Mr. Chips becoming Scarface (i.e. Tony Montana)." So that's not me. That's literally what the show is about. He's Tony Montana now.

 

The second bolded part (that you bolded) is exactly the mental gymnastics I already talked about. He justifies his own horrible behavior -- and his rationale is pretty agile -- but that's all he's doing.

 

Tony Montana did the same thing. After telling Michelle Pfiefer that he wanted to have kids (because in his own mind, he's ready for a family somehow) and getting blown off, he gives this speech.

 

 

That, along with his grumbling about how lawyers and bankers steal more than he ever could, is the same posturing.

 

Tony Montana wasn't complex either. He was a bad guy who did bad things and tried to justify it. Walter White is basically the same guy now. He's a monster who does bad things and will justify it when questioned. He's brilliant and clever about it, but at his core he's just trying to survive and move up ("I'm in the empire business.").

 

Moreover, he seems to have zero guilt over everyone caught in his path of destruction. The plane crash is ancient history to him (when is the last time that came up?). He didn't worry about setting off a bomb in a nursing home. (He didn't know where Gus would confront Tio. It could have been in a common area with others around.) He got over that kid they killed in the desert last year almost immediately -- and then he kept working with the guy who shot him instead of Jesse. No guilt. And he's not conflicted. He's just determined. I'm not sure where you're seeing his guilt or "underlying humanity."

 

That's not to say he's not a great character. You don't have to be complex to be a great character. Tony Montana and Walter White are both great characters. In fact, I'd say the best villains are NOT complex. The Joker wasn't. Anton Chigurth (from No Country for Old Men) wasn't. Hans Gruber wasn't ("You want money? What kind of terrorists are you?" "...who said we were terrorists?").

[Neo]

Ok, I'm in. I bought seasons 1 and 2 on iTunes. I've watched all of season 1. Awesome.

 

I've got a "Falling Down" vibe.

[spndnchz]

http://youtu.be/G3698Bs9FGM

[sabills]

Finally caught up so I can read this stuff again, haha. Therefor SPOILERS!!! Though I'll try to keep it to a minimum.

 

I think people get breadth of a character confused w/ depth. Brian Cranston is doing an amazing job of acting out a character that, externally, has a lot of angles to him, but underneath there is very little. Walter isn't confused. He's not haunted by his past. He's strengthed by it, emboldened by it. He sees the people he's killed as people who were in his way, and by killing them he's only made himself stronger. He LIKES who he's become.He started as a man who had no control over his own life, who was a wimp, a pushover, and he's spent the last year of his life 'correcting' that problem.

 

He says he is doing it for his family, but he doesn't mean that. The last shred of possibilty of that being true dissappeared when he (AGAIN SPOILERS) decided to keep the business instead of just taking the $5 mil. That was more than enough to put both his kids through college, and their kids, and buy them all a house if he wanted too. Hell, I'm not 100% convinced that he's even stopped NOW, I think he gave up all that power that he was so fond of WAY to easy.

 

Skyler, who everyone loves to hate, is complex. She knows what she's doing is wrong, but goes along w/ it because its the only way to protect herself and her family. I think she got a little power happy, too, for a while there, but she can't stop, for her saftey, for the saftey of her children and family. She has a little Stockholm syndrom going on, too.

 

Walt talks his way around everyone, convincing them he's got their best interest at heart, but I assure you, everything he does is for himself, and him alone.

[Marvelo]

I know it's slick, cool and fashionable to love Breaking Bad but the whole idea of its popularity, like Dexter, like Walking Dead, totally escapes me. It sickens me to think of what meth really does to people and how people are finding this, as well as serial killers and gruesome images of death hip popular entertainment. Don't want to spoil the party but we're losing our souls.

 

http://www.nydailyne...14855?pmSlide=0

Edited August 20, 2013 by 716

[K-9]

I know it's slick, cool and fashionable to love Breaking Bad but the whole idea of its popularity, like Dexter, like Walking Dead, totally escapes me. It sickens me to think of what meth really does to people and how people are finding this, as well as serial killers and gruesome images of death hip popular entertainment. Don't want to spoil the party but we're losing our souls.

 

http://www.nydailyne...14855?pmSlide=0

 

Damn, I gotta get away from that classical Greek drama, Shakespearean tragedy, and the like. They are sapping my soul.

 

Seriously, the last thing 'Breaking Bad' does is glamorize meth.

[bunomatic]

Damn, I gotta get away from that classical Greek drama, Shakespearean tragedy, and the like. They are sapping my soul.

 

Seriously, the last thing 'Breaking Bad' does is glamorize meth.

 

I have to agree. Its an escape. Breaking bad is entertainment as is the walking dead and dexter ( which i've never watched ). If I was looking for a way to lose my soul I'd watch some of the religious programming where those leaches suck the money out of the elderly or sick in the name of god. That is corrupt and soul sapping.

[darksabre]

 

 

I have to agree. Its an escape. Breaking bad is entertainment as is the walking dead and dexter ( which i've never watched ). If I was looking for a way to lose my soul I'd watch some of the religious programming where those leaches suck the money out of the elderly or sick in the name of god. That is corrupt and soul sapping.

 

I you want to lose your soul pretty much anything on the "learning" channel at this point will accommodate you. Good lord what a waste of life those shows are.

[Marvelo]

They've been working on our souls for years. We are now totally morally bankrupt and unable to tell right from wrong and that's what we're teaching our kids, who are even more of an ethical blank slate that we are. This folks is the last stop in the Twilight Zone.

 

[darksabre]

They've been working on our souls for years. We are now totally morally bankrupt and unable to tell right from wrong and that's what we're teaching our kids, who are even more of an ethical blank slate that we are. This folks is the last stop in the Twilight Zone.

 

 

You say that, but if there's one thing I've witnessed it's the kids I went to school with growing into completely sounds adults despite the supposed decline of ethics. All that changes is perspective with age. Every generation thinks the next is doomed. It's just not true.

[PASabreFan]

You say that, but if there's one thing I've witnessed it's the kids I went to school with growing into completely sounds adults despite the supposed decline of ethics. All that changes is perspective with age. Every generation thinks the next is doomed. It's just not true.

That there is very well said.

[Claude_Verret]

You say that, but if there's one thing I've witnessed it's the kids I went to school with growing into completely sounds adults despite the supposed decline of ethics. All that changes is perspective with age. Every generation thinks the next is doomed. It's just not true.

 

One of my favorite Wilco tunes..

 

Come on, children

You're acting like children

Every generation thinks

It's the end of the world

:

All you fat followers

Get fit fast

Every generation thinks it's the last

Thinks it's the end of the world

 

Yes, dream down a well

There's a lone heavy hell

I don't care anymore

I don't care anymore

 

It's a feeling we transcend

That we're here at the end

I don't care anymore

I don't care anymore

 

You never know

[Drunkard]

They've been working on our souls for years. We are now totally morally bankrupt and unable to tell right from wrong and that's what we're teaching our kids, who are even more of an ethical blank slate that we are. This folks is the last stop in the Twilight Zone.

 

 

Where am I going and why am I in this handbasket.

 

Seriously? People are morally bankrupt because they enjoy some tv shows with adult themes? You must be a riot to hang out with. What about the violence that gets glorified in what is presumably one of your favorite sports (ice hockey) with the bare knuckle fist fights and bone crunching body checks? I'm just curious but how do you square that circle?