TrueBlueGED Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 I was 13 in 1998 and my main memory from that summer is Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa. It was the biggest athletic phenomenon of the past 20 years. Keeping them out of the Hall will not take away those memories--it just makes the Hall look stupid. Put them in and say "May have used steroids." Done. I think there should be more than a "may have used steroid" sign. I like the idea of an entire exhibit/wing dedicated to the steroid era--the good, the bad, and the ugly. It's part of the game and should be remembered as such; pretending it didn't happen by excluding players of that era is doing the game a disservice (similar to the disservice those players themselves did). I used to be of the opinion nobody connected to steroids should ever be let in, but I've mellowed on that simply because we don't know all the names, so it's probable somebody who juiced gets in anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 I think there should be more than a "may have used steroid" sign. I like the idea of an entire exhibit/wing dedicated to the steroid era--the good, the bad, and the ugly. It's part of the game and should be remembered as such; pretending it didn't happen by excluding players of that era is doing the game a disservice (similar to the disservice those players themselves did). I used to be of the opinion nobody connected to steroids should ever be let in, but I've mellowed on that simply because we don't know all the names, so it's probable somebody who juiced gets in anyway. If it was the "steroid era", can you really look at the best performers and say they weren't doping? The best argument I've heard so far, is that Bonds won 3 MVPs before his head grew 3 sizes. he could probably be voted in for his "clean" years. As far as Rose, this makes no sense to me, unless you think he bet against his team. Betting on the Reds had NO effect on the game. Steroids had a HUGE effect on the game. The hall is about the game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 If it was the "steroid era", can you really look at the best performers and say they weren't doping? The best argument I've heard so far, is that Bonds won 3 MVPs before his head grew 3 sizes. he could probably be voted in for his "clean" years. As far as Rose, this makes no sense to me, unless you think he bet against his team. Betting on the Reds had NO effect on the game. Steroids had a HUGE effect on the game. The hall is about the game. No era can ever really be compared to another anyway. All sports have changed way too much over the years to ever make a truly meaningful comparison of Gretzky-Crosby, Ruth-Bonds, or Montana-Manning. Whether or not guys used, everyone from this time had access to the same exact stuff that Clemens or Bonds were using. These players should be judged against the guys who played while they were playing, not the guys and system of 80 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 (edited) No era can ever really be compared to another anyway. All sports have changed way too much over the years to ever make a truly meaningful comparison of Gretzky-Crosby, Ruth-Bonds, or Montana-Manning. Whether or not guys used, everyone from this time had access to the same exact stuff that Clemens or Bonds were using. These players should be judged against the guys who played while they were playing, not the guys and system of 80 years ago. Baseball is about comparing across eras. That's why Bonds is compared to Aaron. Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, were only a story because they were chasing Maris and Aaron. Edited January 10, 2013 by LastPommerFan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 Baseball is about comparing across eras. That's why Bonds is compared to Aaron. Bonds, McGuire, Sosa, were only a story because they were chasing Maris and Aaron. And we now know how ridiculous that is. Parks have changed. Today's players lift weights and constantly stay in shape. Ruth drank beer. No pitcher who started in the last 10 years or so will probably ever come close to 300 wins. What do these numbers mean anymore? All that really matters is whether or not Mike Trout is a better player than Bryce Harper. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 And we now know how ridiculous that is. Parks have changed. Today's players lift weights and constantly stay in shape. Ruth drank beer. No pitcher who started in the last 10 years or so will probably ever come close to 300 wins. What do these numbers mean anymore? All that really matters is whether or not Mike Trout is a better player than Bryce Harper. your confusing the competition with The Pastime. Induction into the Hall isn't about being the best of your time. It's about being the best of All Time. That's why there are fewer Dead Ball Era sluggers, more pitchers. Spitballs and Foul Strikes gave them the advantage. It took Ruth's emergence as something special to get sluggers on the radar again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 If it was the "steroid era", can you really look at the best performers and say they weren't doping? The best argument I've heard so far, is that Bonds won 3 MVPs before his head grew 3 sizes. he could probably be voted in for his "clean" years. As far as Rose, this makes no sense to me, unless you think he bet against his team. Betting on the Reds had NO effect on the game. Steroids had a HUGE effect on the game. The hall is about the game. The only players who I'd be surprised to learn doped would be Griffey and Jeter. Everybody else I'd just shrug my shoulders at. Obviously steroids had a bigger effect on the game than Pete Rose gambling. My point was that everybody in the world knew gambling on baseball would get you banned if caught, and Rose did it anyway. He deserves his ban for his complete stupidity, and I have zero sympathy for him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 Since he has not yet officially resurfaced, as far as I can tell, I give you one of the best posts ever by Korab ... Baseball is geh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 your confusing the competition with The Pastime. Induction into the Hall isn't about being the best of your time. It's about being the best of All Time. That's why there are fewer Dead Ball Era sluggers, more pitchers. Spitballs and Foul Strikes gave them the advantage. It took Ruth's emergence as something special to get sluggers on the radar again. And the "best of all time" is a ridiculous standard. You can't possibly compare these guys for the reasons I previously stated. We could go off on an endless list of things that have changed. And even worse, these voters are trying to compare guys to players that they more than likely have never seen play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted January 10, 2013 Report Share Posted January 10, 2013 And the "best of all time" is a ridiculous standard. You can't possibly compare these guys for the reasons I previously stated. We could go off on an endless list of things that have changed. And even worse, these voters are trying to compare guys to players that they more than likely have never seen play. And you have perfectly summarized the ONLY thing that makes baseball interesting to me. That debate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyldnwoody44 Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 This Broncos Ravens game is much more entertaining than originally anticipated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 This Broncos Ravens game is much more entertaining than originally anticipated Not 5 seconds after I had this very thought, this is the email I get. Isn't it great to see the game played so well. Dad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyldnwoody44 Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Not 5 seconds after I had this very thought, this is the email I get. Isn't it great to see the game played so well. Dad Dad is sure right. I can't believe that Denver let that pass behind them for the tie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjag Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 That play can't happen... Unreal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deluca67 Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Those were two highly entertaining games played yesterday. It will be interesting to see what today brings. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyldnwoody44 Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Seattle nearly pulled that off, another good game. Hoping for Brady to go home crying tonight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjag Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Three outstanding football games this weekend... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjag Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 It is depressing to see what real football teams look like and realize how far the Bills are from that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyldnwoody44 Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 It is depressing to see what real football teams look like and realize how far the Bills are from that... Every time I see a QB hit a perfect 30 yard pass down the seam, I think the same thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted January 16, 2013 Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 An excellent choice by the Bears ... http://www.cbc.ca/sports/football/nfl/story/2013/01/16/sp-cfl-nfl-football-montreal-alouettes-chicago-bears-marc-trestman.html I'm glad he's got his NFL HC chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 Lance. Any thoughts? Personally I've always thought he was dirty. Although I dislike the man and what he'll forever be known for he does do alot for his foundation and raises a ton of money for the fight against cancer. Hopefully his admission of guilt doesn't put an end to that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 http://www.clint.be/sites/clint.be/files/imagecache/artikelfotoenkel/ba3cnl-cyaabdw3.jpg_large.jpg But about one thing he is right though, you can look at the top 10 of any tour in those days. and realise they all have been caught or have admitted to taking epo. probably the main reason why those years are without a winner now. like his 1st tour victory you'd have to go all the way to #11 to find someone that hasn't been caught taking EPO or ever admitting to doing so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wjag Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 Lance. Any thoughts? Personally I've always thought he was dirty. Although I dislike the man and what he'll forever be known for he does do alot for his foundation and raises a ton of money for the fight against cancer. Hopefully his admission of guilt doesn't put an end to that. The day the international cycling whatever took his titles back is the day I took off my Livestrong bracelet. I wore it for many years. I so admired him and rooted for him each of those years. I just can't suffer a cheat. Extremely disappointed. I thought I was watching history. Instead I was watching a cheat. I hope the glory was worth the price. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peppy22 Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 I dont care if he won 7 TDF titles with Doping. Thats not the important point for me. For me the disgusting part is that he threw several people under the bus who's lifes where ruined because of lance armstrong. For Example Betsy and Frankie Andreu. They were asked if Lance Armstrong used drugs and they said, when we where with him in the hospital to support him battling cancer he told the doctors he took drugs. After that both were confronted by those people who thought hey they just wanna destroy this icon. Screw Betsy and Frankie... Frankie Andreu lost his job and no company wanted to give him a new one in cycling department for a long long time. They marriage almost went to hell and Betsy Andreu's father didnt talk to her for years because he trusted a liar (Lance Armstrong). And this is just one example. He destroyed so many lives of people who where always telling the truth. And this is something that's not fixed with "Oh I am sorry." And afaik he didnt apologize to those people yet. Only to his livestrong guys and other cyclists. He threw people under the bus who told the truth. So yeah Lance Armstrong F*ck that guy. I dont care if he raised millions for charity. It's a nice thing but doesnt make the things he did acceptable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bunomatic Posted January 18, 2013 Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 Nothing makes what he did acceptable. Not even raising half a billion dollars for charity because without the tour wins he's a nobody who wouldn't have been able to raise that money. He couldn't even remember how many people he had sued while trying to prolong the lie. Some are calling him a sociopath ? But I do hope his foundation can survive without him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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