LTS Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 (edited) Sorry but Matt is absolutely right. The insinuation is that they are the same beer with flavorings added. This would indicate they are created the same as malted beverages like hard sodas which are fermented for alcohol and then stripped of their malt profiles and re-flavored with flavorings. This is not how Saranac makes its beer. Their beers may not be anything special but they are created with recipes that are different. Edited August 30, 2017 by LTS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 (edited) He's not even remotely right. The beers are nothing similar with "flavors" added. They are independent recipes using variations of hops, malts, etc. To indicate they are like the hard sodas which are actually fermented alcoholic beverages which are then treated to remove the malt flavor and then re-flavored with flavorings to achieve a profile is absurd. The beers are nothing special, by any means... but they are not just the same beer with flavoring added. All I know is after drinking several (admittedly several years ago), it occurred to the group I was with that they all tasted the same with slight variations. Some of their more recent IPAs even taste like lager to me, which makes me wonder if they don't mix Standard Saranac Beer #1 with something else 50/50 to make the varieties. I'd imagine some of the beers are distinct recipes, but some really do taste like lager with flavoring. Edited August 30, 2017 by MattPie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 The insinuation is that they are the same beer with flavorings added. This would indicate they are created the same as malted beverages like hard sodas which are fermented for alcohol and then stripped of their malt profiles and re-flavored with flavorings. This is not how Saranac makes its beer. Their beers may not be anything special but they are created with recipes that are different. It may not be how they actually make their beer, but it's how their beers taste. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amerks8796 Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 Genesee is releasing a bourbon barrel aged old ale. Looking forward to that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dominator Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 It'll only be for a day or two. Long enough to make sure that the mistake is fixed properly and our customer is up and running again. Celebration once its over will be in a beer tent. Awesome! If you're able to, throw a couple pictures up of the tent/ beer steins. I've been to Germany for a long weekend but not during Oktoberfest. It's on the bucket list Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted August 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 Re: Saranac beers with similar flavor profiles.... Lots of breweries have house flavors. CB's in Honeoye Falls is one. To me, Flying Bison is another. Yeast has a tremendous impact on a beers flavor. A brewery that uses one house yeast for most everything is going to have a house flavor. Add using the same base malts in their recipes, and it is even moreso. Being a fairly large brewery, I expect Matt's uses a house yeast strain and base malt for economic reasons, so yeah, they will have a house flavor even with differing recipes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 Re: Saranac beers with similar flavor profiles.... Lots of breweries have house flavors. CB's in Honeoye Falls is one. To me, Flying Bison is another. Yeast has a tremendous impact on a beers flavor. A brewery that uses one house yeast for most everything is going to have a house flavor. Add using the same base malts in their recipes, and it is even moreso. Being a fairly large brewery, I expect Matt's uses a house yeast strain and base malt for economic reasons, so yeah, they will have a house flavor even with differing recipes. I used to notice that a lot more with Flying Bison. Everything they made had a hint of pistachio to it. I notice that less now, I think they've improved their recipes a bit. My problem with Saranac is that their beer legit tastes like it has had flavor syrup added. It's not just that they've all got a hint of the same flavors in them, it's that there's something fundamentally wrong with how they're arriving at the flavor profile and accompanying mouthfeel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dominator Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 Re: Saranac beers with similar flavor profiles.... Lots of breweries have house flavors. CB's in Honeoye Falls is one. To me, Flying Bison is another. Yeast has a tremendous impact on a beers flavor. A brewery that uses one house yeast for most everything is going to have a house flavor. Add using the same base malts in their recipes, and it is even moreso. Being a fairly large brewery, I expect Matt's uses a house yeast strain and base malt for economic reasons, so yeah, they will have a house flavor even with differing recipes. Good point on Flying Bison. I noticed it before kind of subconsciously, but now that you mention it I think it's spot on. I also agree with d4ark that it seems like their "flavor" is expanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 All I know is after drinking several (admittedly several years ago), it occurred to the group I was with that they all tasted the same with slight variations. Some of their more recent IPAs even taste like lager to me, which makes me wonder if they don't mix Standard Saranac Beer #1 with something else 50/50 to make the varieties. I'd imagine some of the beers are distinct recipes, but some really do taste like lager with flavoring. This is common. Even more than yeast is that I bet they are not varying up their base malt very much either and it's probably crappy base malt to boot. A lot of crappy malt will impart the same flavors even across different specialties. Liken it to someone who doesn't know how to roast a coffee bean... you do it wrong it ends up tasting the same as every other bean. It may not be how they actually make their beer, but it's how their beers taste. See above.. below, etc. :) Genesee is releasing a bourbon barrel aged old ale. Looking forward to that one. I am as well. Dean at Genny makes some really great beer. Their pilot beers are very good most of the time. Re: Saranac beers with similar flavor profiles.... Lots of breweries have house flavors. CB's in Honeoye Falls is one. To me, Flying Bison is another. Yeast has a tremendous impact on a beers flavor. A brewery that uses one house yeast for most everything is going to have a house flavor. Add using the same base malts in their recipes, and it is even moreso. Being a fairly large brewery, I expect Matt's uses a house yeast strain and base malt for economic reasons, so yeah, they will have a house flavor even with differing recipes. This is very true. And to expand on what I was saying above... if you have a process that calls for a fermentation temperature at let's say... 62 degrees, then a lot of the malt and yeast characteristics from fermentation are going to be more muted. As We've noted, the yeast is a HUGE factor in this. While most will run quite a few house yeasts what happens is they repitch them (as they should). There are however factors that have to be taken into consideration. THe first is that pitching wort on top of the yeast trub of another beer will impart some of that beers flavors into the new beer. It's wise to re-pitch on similar styles (so IPA to IPA, etc.) If you were to take an IPA and then pitch an amber on it you could end up with some IPA notes, etc. THe second of course is how many times you re-pitch. The last, and very common problem, is that breweries use an ale yeast and ferment at low temps to simulate a lager profile while shortening the fermentation process. There are also packaging issues, cleaning issues, etc. I used to notice that a lot more with Flying Bison. Everything they made had a hint of pistachio to it. I notice that less now, I think they've improved their recipes a bit. My problem with Saranac is that their beer legit tastes like it has had flavor syrup added. It's not just that they've all got a hint of the same flavors in them, it's that there's something fundamentally wrong with how they're arriving at the flavor profile and accompanying mouthfeel. Which beers would you say taste like syrup is added? I don't drink them these days, but if you take something like Caramel Porter.. well, you're likely right at this point. A good caramel porter would use a decoction, but again that takes time and complicates the process. Just curious if you could name any so I could look into it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted August 30, 2017 Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 Same brew house brews Saranac and Flying Bison -- Matt's. Good point on Flying Bison. I noticed it before kind of subconsciously, but now that you mention it I think it's spot on. I also agree with d4ark that it seems like their "flavor" is expanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted August 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 30, 2017 Same brew house brews Saranac and Flying Bison -- Matt's. Npt quite that simple, but not inaccurate. Matts is the owner of Flying Bison, and Flying Bison does use its relationship with Matts to purchase ingredients, and Matts does brew some of FB's highest volume beers. But they are all FBs recipes, which were developed independently over many years by Tim Herzog. Tim developed all his recipes using one yeast. Many years ago I got him to divulge it, but I won't publicize it out of respect for his wishes. Every beer in his lineup uses it. And they are all fermented at the same temp (at least they *were*, I haven't seen him in quite a few years) So similar flavors should be expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattPie Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 Npt quite that simple, but not inaccurate. Matts is the owner of Flying Bison, and Flying Bison does use its relationship with Matts to purchase ingredients, and Matts does brew some of FB's highest volume beers. But they are all FBs recipes, which were developed independently over many years by Tim Herzog. Tim developed all his recipes using one yeast. Many years ago I got him to divulge it, but I won't publicize it out of respect for his wishes. Every beer in his lineup uses it. And they are all fermented at the same temp (at least they *were*, I haven't seen him in quite a few years) So similar flavors should be expected. Interesting, and makes sense. I'm not a big fan of FB, they all kinda taste like the lager (and I'm not a lager guy). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted August 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 Interesting, and makes sense. I'm not a big fan of FB, they all kinda taste like the lager (and I'm not a lager guy). His yeast of choice is fairly clean, although its a bit tart to my palate. It isnt known for producing much in the way of esters unless fermented at fairly high temp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 Good learning up in har. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spndnchz Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 Saranac sucks. #out Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dominator Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 I'm just glad the beer thread is picking back up some steam after it went pretty quiet over the summer. Colder temps means more stouts, porters, brown and amber ales. I couldn't be any happier Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 I'm just glad the beer thread is picking back up some steam after it went pretty quiet over the summer. Colder temps means more stouts, porters, brown and amber ales. I couldn't be any happier The best beers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted August 31, 2017 Report Share Posted August 31, 2017 I'm just glad the beer thread is picking back up some steam after it went pretty quiet over the summer. Colder temps means more stouts, porters, brown and amber ales. I couldn't be any happier The best beers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted September 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2017 Bought a sixer of Sierra Nevada Oktoberfest. Never had this one. We'll see how they did soon enough.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted September 1, 2017 Report Share Posted September 1, 2017 Grabbed some Great Lakes Edmund Fitzgerald tonight because it's perfect weather. Being consumed along side pierogi and kielbasa as God intended. I've come to the conclusion that if you were to ask me what my favorite beer of all time is, it would be this one. There's no other beer that I am more consistently satisfied by. It's just perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted September 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted September 1, 2017 Bought a sixer of Sierra Nevada Oktoberfest. Never had this one. We'll see how they did soon enough.... Malty in that awesome decoction mash way that most micros don't get right. No caramel flavors. No excess crystal. Just straight up malt and mouth feel. Might be the best Ofest Ive ever had. Until next week of course. Grabbed some Great Lakes Edmund Fitzgerald tonight because it's perfect weather. Being consumed along side pierogi and kielbasa as God intended. I've come to the conclusion that if you were to ask me what my favorite beer of all time is, it would be this one. There's no other beer that I am more consistently satisfied by. It's just perfect. Edmund Fitz is the standard for robust porters IMO. Anchor's is up there as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabel79 Posted September 2, 2017 Report Share Posted September 2, 2017 Love Edmund Fitz, and most of what Great Lakes does in general. Had my wedding reception there. May never drink it again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hsif Posted September 2, 2017 Report Share Posted September 2, 2017 (edited) Picked up a growler of Rohrbachs Sinker Slider, and I'm in love all over again................I don't know whos yeast or what esters have been produced to create this concoction, but sign me up for another........ The "bad" news is I have to choke down a growler of Railroad Street IPA next. As for the Fitz....... all I hear is Gordon Lightfoot when I see a bottle of it. Edited September 2, 2017 by hsif Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted September 2, 2017 Report Share Posted September 2, 2017 Was invited to be part of the Genesee Brewery Tap it Forward Day on Sept. 8th. (http://www.geneseebeer.com/tapitforwardfest/) Get to be part of some sessions and stuff going on during the day and then attend the festival later that evening. The sessions during the day invite staff from the other breweries in the area and NYS to help run Genny while the employees of Genesee Brew House are given time to participate in a community volunteer program in North Rochester. They are also releasing a bourbon barrel aged old ale that day. They only made a 60bbl batch so it'll be very limited. They brought in a mobile canning line to can the beer off as well. Can't wait to try it. Should be fun. If you want to see some event shots, etc. you can check out ROCbeer on Facebook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted September 2, 2017 Report Share Posted September 2, 2017 Was invited to be part of the Genesee Brewery Tap it Forward Day on Sept. 8th. (http://www.geneseebeer.com/tapitforwardfest/) Get to be part of some sessions and stuff going on during the day and then attend the festival later that evening. The sessions during the day invite staff from the other breweries in the area and NYS to help run Genny while the employees of Genesee Brew House are given time to participate in a community volunteer program in North Rochester. They are also releasing a bourbon barrel aged old ale that day. They only made a 60bbl batch so it'll be very limited. They brought in a mobile canning line to can the beer off as well. Can't wait to try it. Should be fun. If you want to see some event shots, etc. you can check out ROCbeer on Facebook. Neat! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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