After the latest loss, what does accountability look like?

[bunomatic]

2 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

The saddest thing to me is looking at Philly and Vancouver. Two teams that are soaring right now because they haves coaches that demand that the players play the right way and earn their ice time. Neither made any drastic roster changes. 

Would love a coach like Tochet. 

[Night Train]

[Pimlach]

2 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

Granato and staff belong in Rochester, not Buffalo.  As far as accountability, part of me truly believes the organization blames the FANS.  They don't look at the mirror, but rather feel that we all should be grateful and more supportive of the team for still being in Buffalo.  Despite how BAD this team is (and has been), we have failed in our responsibility to fill the arena and be supportive no matter what.  Accountability....it's our fault (in their eyes).

If I am the HC I don’t want Granato in Rochester.  I want a coach in Rochester that teaches my system, my way.  There is no system today under Granato.  The Granato system is to allow talented players to free lance and create scoring chances. It’s a system for All Star teams, not normal league teams.  Some nights it works, especially when you have more talent than they do, but most nights it doesn’t, especially now because everyone knows what to do to slow it down.   

HUGE RED FLAG -  you don’t teach offense one year, defense the next year.  Hockey is not played like that.  When I heard that I was shocked.   

Granato reached his peak last season.  It’s time to move on, but not hastily.  Stick someone in there now just to hold down the fort, this season is toast. 

The problem in Buffalo is massive and should be addressed in the off season.  There needs to be a major coaching search. There are experienced coaches out there that can help them take the next step - playoffs.  The new coach will need to have a say on the roster construction for that to happen. 

The biggest problem is Pegula.  No one wants to work for him, or be under his stupid constraints.  He set the tone for how he would work within NHL circles.  First brag, then throw money around recklessly, scoff at his contemporaries, and then publicly tank and tear down a franchise.   He is considered a complete joke in the hockey world.  It will be very hard to ever get this on track because of him.    

His fastest move out if this mess is to keep Adams, take off the shackles, and instruct him to hire experienced NHL coaches.  Try to improve that way first (rather than another rebuild).   There is no good GM candidate out there that will work for Terry.  Forget that idea for now.  Hire an experienced HC and give him control of the NHL roster construction.   Some HC have GM like responsibilities, it is not unheard of..   

They should already be talking to Berube and he is probably going to want a say in the roster construction.  

 

Edited December 20, 2023 by Pimlach

[Pimlach]

13 minutes ago, bunomatic said:

Would love a coach like Tochet. 

People here call coaches like Tochet and Torts dinosaurs.   Most Buffalo fans want their style of hockey though.  
 

Hard work is always appreciated.  It’s easy to see when it’s not there.  Right now, this team is not working hard. They already quit on each other, now they are quitting on DG.  

[SABRES 0311]

The answer is decimation. One out of every ten members of the organization. From Pegula down to the newest intern. 

[Porous Five Hole]

2 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

I agree with your first paragraphs and strongly disagree with the conclusion of firing Adams. Of the 3 GMs Pegula has hired, Adams has by far been the best at executing an actual plan. There is near universal belief that any success Pegula has had in hiring quality people for the Bills or Sabres has been a happy accident. Pegula firing Adams would just result in him then taking another low % shot at hiring a new GM. I’ll pass on that for now. 
 

Adams was clearly reluctant to declare that this was a year with expectations. What I am somewhat shocked by is that he seems to have misunderstood that was not a narrative that he alone gets to set. The fans have no interest in another year of rebuilding. People would accept, begrudgingly, another year of growth where we take a run at the playoffs and fall short, but a year like this is only going to result in fans getting more brazen in voicing their displeasure. Good vibes have gone bad and may soon go toxic. 
 

The best we can hope for at this point is that Adams learns from his mistakes and course corrects. The challenging part for fans will be that if he indeed does this, it may take a little time and not be obvious at first. For example, while there are good coaches available now, it might be best to wait until the off-season when even better options are available. 
 

Regardless, at some point between now and the end of the next offseason, Adams needs to do something that makes clear that the organization now expects to win. He doesn’t have to say it, but he needs to do something that clearly positions the organization as one that expects to be a playoff team. If he doesn’t, and the plan is to do what they did this year and just make the team younger, then we are on the path to seeing the next group of star players ask for mercy and a move to another team. 

Nice post.

You’re giving GMKA a long runway and I don’t know how deserved that is. 

My issue is the GM’s inability to do ANYTHING relevant to better position his roster and his coaches to demand accountability.  
The head coach cannot tell the team to, “play better or I’ll find someone who will” because Kevyn won't. Time and time again we find that he literally won't do anything.

So does the coach yell idle threats at the players or do you just treat it like daycare, and hope the players get better/have self accountability?

This team is still waiting for an NHL goalie, a top four defenseman, and some veteran presence over and above what is already here & Erik Johnson. Remember when this team needed a nudge at the trade deadline because the Sabres were “in the hunt?” Crickets.

The goalie and the Dman was needed a year ago at this time, it was needed at last year’s trade deadline, free agency, the draft, final cuts, and still today. 
 

DO SOMETHING DARCY!!!

4 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

People here call coaches like Tochet and Torts dinosaurs.   Most Buffalo fans want their style of hockey though.  
 

Hard work is always appreciated.  It’s easy to see when it’s not there.  Right now, this team is not working hard. They already quit on each other, now they are quitting on DG.  

Hard for coaches to hold players accountable when the GM doesn’t do anything.  Ever.  

[PASabreFan]

40 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

If I am the HC I don’t want Granato in Rochester.  I want a coach in Rochester that teaches my system, my way.  There is no system today under Granato.  The Granato system is to allow talented players to free lance and create scoring chances. It’s a system for All Star teams, not normal league teams.  Some nights it works, especially when you have more talent than they do, but most nights it doesn’t, especially now because everyone knows what to do to slow it down.   

HUGE RED FLAG -  you don’t teach offense one year, defense the next year.  Hockey is not played like that.  When I heard that I was shocked.   

Granato reached his peak last season.  It’s time to move on, but not hastily.  Stick someone in there now just to hold down the fort, this season is toast. 

The problem in Buffalo is massive and should be addressed in the off season.  There needs to be a major coaching search. There are experienced coaches out there that can help them take the next step - playoffs.  The new coach will need to have a say on the roster construction for that to happen. 

The biggest problem is Pegula.  No one wants to work for him, or be under his stupid constraints.  He set the tone for how he would work within NHL circles.  First brag, then throw money around recklessly, scoff at his contemporaries, and then publicly tank and tear down a franchise.   He is considered a complete joke in the hockey world.  It will be very hard to ever get this on track because of him.    

His fastest move out if this mess is to keep Adams, take off the shackles, and instruct him to hire experienced NHL coaches.  Try to improve that way first (rather than another rebuild).   There is no good GM candidate out there that will work for Terry.  Forget that idea for now.  Hire an experienced HC and give him control of the NHL roster construction.   Some HC have GM like responsibilities, it is not unheard of..   

They should already be talking to Berube and he is probably going to want a say in the roster construction.  

 

That's intriguing stuff and not unfamiliar to Terry. Did McDermott not essentially hire Beane?

Hello Brind'Amour.

[Drag0nDan]

28 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

Nice post.

You’re giving GMKA a long runway and I don’t know how deserved that is. 

My issue is the GM’s inability to do ANYTHING relevant to better position his roster and his coaches to demand accountability.  
The head coach cannot tell the team to, “play better or I’ll find someone who will” because Kevyn won't. Time and time again we find that he literally won't do anything.

So does the coach yell idle threats at the players or do you just treat it like daycare, and hope the players get better/have self accountability?

This team is still waiting for an NHL goalie, a top four defenseman, and some veteran presence over and above what is already here & Erik Johnson. Remember when this team needed a nudge at the trade deadline because the Sabres were “in the hunt?” Crickets.

The goalie and the Dman was needed a year ago at this time, it was needed at last year’s trade deadline, free agency, the draft, final cuts, and still today. 
 

DO SOMETHING DARCY!!!

Hard for coaches to hold players accountable when the GM doesn’t do anything.  Ever.  

A goalie and a d-man doesn't fix the problems though. 

This team cannot exit the zone well, and yet we leave a puck moving defenseman in the press box - that isn't a KA decision, thats a DG decision.  We have multiple dudes playing hurt... we should probably put them on lines together.  Lets pass the puck up the boards to a wing who then holds onto it and waits for people to get up ice... in his own zone... where a turnover then results in like a 4x2 as the forwards aren't in the zone anymore.  

There is no cohesion to anything they do, the zone exit is the same every time, the team looks oddly slow, there is no jam, they don't tie sticks up, they don't play the body, the centers don't cover the high slot properly, the forecheck is terrible when they have to dump and chase, they force extra passes constantly which result in turnovers, they drop pass constantly which results in turnovers, they have way too many players who stink at shooting, and the ones who can are struggling.  It's just a horrible hockey team right now.  I can't really think of much of what they do right.

[Brawndo]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Quick note. The Taylor Hall year was not an Adams go for it year. That was a Terry and Ralph go for it year. 

I'd pick a bottom 6 that's liked in that room and trade him. I'd decide which assistant I'm getting the least from and fire them. 

Zemgus would be a great choice for this 

[Brawndo]

Fire Mike Bales and see if Mike Condon has interest in coming in to work with Levi 

[LGR4GM]

Just now, Brawndo said:

Fire Mike Bales and see if Mike Condon has interest in coming in to work with Levi 

Id either fire Ellis (who I like BTW) and bring in a PP Coach or just bring a PP Coach anyways. 

[Brawndo]

Just now, LGR4GM said:

Id either fire Ellis (who I like BTW) and bring in a PP Coach or just bring a PP Coach anyways. 

At least pay Bob Woods to be a PP Consultant 

[LGR4GM]

51 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said:

The answer is decimation. One out of every ten members of the organization. From Pegula down to the newest intern. 

[Taro T]

2 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Fire Mike Bales and see if Mike Condon has interest in coming in to work with Levi 

 

Just now, LGR4GM said:

Id either fire Ellis (who I like BTW) and bring in a PP Coach or just bring a PP Coach anyways. 

Personally believe Bob Woods should be hired yesterday, Ellis should be moved back to whatever developmental role he had before becoming an assistant coach, and Bales and Wilford should both be given their walking papers.  Maybe the other assistants too.

[nfreeman]

I don't know the right answer.

It looks increasingly clear that if DG remains as HC, they will limp to yet another bottom-7 finish, with the stink of losing becoming further ingrained among the new core and the fan base becoming increasingly apathetic (if not hostile).

A real NHL team wouldn't just sit back and let that happen without firing the HC.

OTOH, firing yet another coach does seem like it would increase the apparent disinterest among experienced, accomplished NHL coaches/GMs in coming here.

What a great idea the tank was.

[Porous Five Hole]

GMKA is in over his head.
His plan was to draft and develop.   And after last year, he thought he could mostly sit on his hands and this would be a playoff team.  He was wrong and he doesn’t know how to pivot. WORST TEAM IN THE CONFERENCE?? 

If he isn’t second guessing himself and being active, then there’s no reason to expect anything other than results like this.  

[Pimlach]

9 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

That's intriguing stuff and not unfamiliar to Terry. Did McDermott not essentially hire Beane?

Hello Brind'Amour.

Pegula hired McD.  MCD recommended Beane to Pegula.  Both report direct to Terry.  

Pegula was forced to replace Russ Brandon and he wanted to get rid of Whaley too, but he needed Whaley to help him hire a coach and to survive the draft.  Pegula liked McD when he meet him the first time - which was the interview session that led to Rex.  It was Brandon that talked him into Rex.  If Brandon did not get into trouble with the young ladies on his staff, which was appalling to Kim, he mighty still be around and screwing up the Bills for Terry.  

The NHL shares lists of top coaching candidates, which included McD, - they do this not only to help diversity candidates, but also to help keep the league competitive.   They do not want failing dead franchises.  

McD ran the first draft with Whaley.  He helped clean house, he set out to change the culture,  and he advised Pegula to hire his friend in NC, Brandon Beane, as the next GM.  Beane was already known as top GM candidates.   Pegula was able to get Beane after the draft.   Beane and McD have had the right personalities to keep Terry happy and out of the way.  Beane and McD got results quickly, so Terry backed away and was happy to let Kim run both Teams as "President and Owner".  

This suggests that if his team has competent leadership, Terry would be more likely to stand back, especially if he has Kim keeping an eye on it.   Another plus for the NFL was the embracing of Kim.   The NFL is all about diversity and Kim got to contribute at the league level in meaningful ways - nothing like this happens in the NHL, which is the last bastion of "good ol' boys".   

Kim running the Sabres did not help anything.  But Kevyn Adams is at least well liked, a smart young buck that impressed them in past assignments.  He took over for Boterill and did the most recent rebuild.  He inherited Granato from Krueger, and he did not do much of coaching search when he decided to stick with DG. 

If Adams is smart, he will realize that DG has peaked and look for someone that has NHL pedigree to get to the next step - playoffs.  

Brind'Amour would be great.  But Buffalo is a hard sell.  B'A is a Hurricane deep inside.  They would have to really overpay to get him and then B'A would certainly demand some control of the roster.   

Waiting for B'A to turn us down could cause them to miss on Berube, or others.  

 

 

[PASabreFan]

1 minute ago, Pimlach said:

Pegula hired McD.  MCD recommended Beane to Pegula.  Both report direct to Terry.  

Pegula was forced to replace Russ Brandon and he wanted to get rid of Whaley too, but he needed Whaley to help him hire a coach and to survive the draft.  Pegula liked McD when he meet him the first time - which was the interview session that led to Rex.  It was Brandon that talked him into Rex.  If Brandon did not get into trouble with the young ladies on his staff, which was appalling to Kim, he mighty still be around and screwing up the Bills for Terry.  

The NHL shares lists of top coaching candidates, which included McD, - they do this not only to help diversity candidates, but also to help keep the league competitive.   They do not want failing dead franchises.  

McD ran the first draft with Whaley.  He helped clean house, he set out to change the culture,  and he advised Pegula to hire his friend in NC, Brandon Beane, as the next GM.  Beane was already known as top GM candidates.   Pegula was able to get Beane after the draft.   Beane and McD have had the right personalities to keep Terry happy and out of the way.  Beane and McD got results quickly, so Terry backed away and was happy to let Kim run both Teams as "President and Owner".  

This suggests that if his team has competent leadership, Terry would be more likely to stand back, especially if he has Kim keeping an eye on it.   Another plus for the NFL was the embracing of Kim.   The NFL is all about diversity and Kim got to contribute at the league level in meaningful ways - nothing like this happens in the NHL, which is the last bastion of "good ol' boys".   

Kim running the Sabres did not help anything.  But Kevyn Adams is at least well liked, a smart young buck that impressed them in past assignments.  He took over for Boterill and did the most recent rebuild.  He inherited Granato from Krueger, and he did not do much of coaching search when he decided to stick with DG. 

If Adams is smart, he will realize that DG has peaked and look for someone that has NHL pedigree to get to the next step - playoffs.  

Brind'Amour would be great.  But Buffalo is a hard sell.  B'A is a Hurricane deep inside.  They would have to really overpay to get him and then B'A would certainly demand some control of the roster.   

Waiting for B'A to turn us down could cause them to miss on Berube, or others.  

 

 

[Taro T]

6 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

GMKA is in over his head.
His plan was to draft and develop.   And after last year, he thought he could mostly sit on his hands and this would be a playoff team.  He was wrong and he doesn’t know how to pivot. WORST TEAM IN THE CONFERENCE?? 

If he isn’t second guessing himself and being active, then there’s no reason to expect anything other than results like this.  

Your 1st statement might be accurate.

But, don't believe it's that he was sitting on his hands that kept him inactive.  It's that his valuation of the guys he has made the price to bring in the outside guys he tried to obtain too expensive.  (That, and guys like Pesce saying heck no to waiving a NMC to enjoy the wonderment of a WNY winter.)

And had he forced Granato to make some changes behind the bench, his valuations of his players making those other pickups too expensive might've still be workable.  Heck, just having a guy that actually knows how to run a PP rather than Matt Ellis would be worth what, maybe 5 more wins right now.  How much different does this exact same team look with that many more points in the standings?  Make a couple other coaching improvements and maybe Adams is right about this team being able to set goals higher than just making the playoffs.

Am not giving up on this season.  But something has to change quickly.  And don't know that finally having a fully healthy team (yes, Girgensons is still out, but they brought in a roughly equivalent from outside in Robinson; so for all intents and purposes the team is full) will be enough as Thompson definitely isn't at 100% nor likely are at least a few other key pieces (believe Tuch is still working through a groin/hamstring that limits him many games; Samuelsson is dealing with something; and it's not likely Quinn is 100% either).

As fun as last season was, this is as miserable, maybe even moreso.

[Carmel Corn]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

 

Personally believe Bob Woods should be hired yesterday, Ellis should be moved back to whatever developmental role he had before becoming an assistant coach, and Bales and Wilford should both be given their walking papers.  Maybe the other assistants too.

If Wilford has anything to do with the putrid performance of our defense, then he should be the first one gone.  Power and Muel are simply awful this year while Joki, Big Johnson and Clifton are struggling as well.  

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, Carmel Corn said:

If Wilford has anything to do with the putrid performance of our defense, then he should be the first one gone.  Power and Muel are simply awful this year while Joki, Big Johnson and Clifton are struggling as well.  

Wilford is the bench coach for the D.  Girardi works in practices with them too.  ( @Brawndo can clarify if that isn't completely accurate.)

[Second Line Center]

Conner Clifton is absolutely terrible 

At :58 misses a horrendous attempt at a hip check you never see anymore.  Barely 10 seconds later the weakest attempt to clear as this shift is gone on over a minute.  
 

Just because he was with Boston doesn’t mean he was good.  His game stinks.  He can be physical and that’s all I’ll say.   

Edited December 20, 2023 by Second Line Center

[Marvin]

The only places where a fair trade might be made would be with teams in a similar situations as we are: seemingly under-achieving, young, or otherwise having problems. Who are some realistic candidates that we can target with a trade for a comparably valued player on our roster?

[Porous Five Hole]

39 minutes ago, Second Line Center said:

Conner Clifton is absolutely terrible 

At :58 misses a horrendous attempt at a hip check you never see anymore.  Barely 10 seconds later the weakest attempt to clear as this shift is gone on over a minute.  
 

Just because he was with Boston doesn’t mean he was good.  His game stinks.  He can be physical and that’s all I’ll say.   

Did you know Cliffy has been a +4 the last ten games? His mistakes are glaring,  but he’s settling in. At this point, he is not on the top of the list of problems. 🤷‍♂️

[Second Line Center]

26 minutes ago, Porous Five Hole said:

Did you know Cliffy has been a +4 the last ten games? His mistakes are glaring,  but he’s settling in. At this point, he is not on the top of the list of problems. 🤷‍♂️

I can’t ignore the minus 8 he’d been up to that - what the recent plus 4 tells me is since Thanksgiving DG is not using him against the opposing teams top 1-2 lines perhaps how he was the first 22 games.

I’d have to dig to see if his minutes have been cut.  But regardless he was brought in to be a top 4 guy.  He’s being paid like it. 
 

“Bruins coach Jim Montgomery occasionally expressed frustration with Clifton's play, telling reporters that the defenseman was taking too many risks and not sticking to the team's structure. Montgomery's system put more restrictions on defensemen compared to that of Boston's previous coach Bruce Cassidy, who was behind the bench when Clifton made an instant impact as a rookie in the 2019 run to the Stanley Cup final.”
 

https://buffalonews.com/sports/sabres/connor-clifton-joins-sabres-defense-corps-on-3-year-contract-in-free-agency/article_17cb2924-1831-11ee-8abb-ff81b497c749.html
 

Yes he’s not what’s wrong with this team I’m just saying he’s not helping imo.