A (hopefully) rational discussion on the State of the Sabres - what say you?

[Crusader1969]

On 12/18/2023 at 11:04 AM, Crusader1969 said:

They need to take a page from the Bills playbook and fire an assistant coach

sorry Matt Ellis, you may or may not deserve it but you must be sacrificed 

I honestly tried to stand behind Granato and wanted them to give him a chance with a full line-up but after last night I've changed my mind.

No longer can an assistant coach be a sacrificial lamb, the head coach needs to go 

we are now seeing regression across the board, defence that borders on keystone cops, and effort that only seems to show up against the top clubs in the league.

I imagine they are going to play well the next few games vs the Leafs, Rangers and Boston and then regress back to form vs Columbus on the 30th

If I was Adams, I would have a long hard look at myself to fully realize my role in the debacle of the 23/24 season.  From not bringing in a Vet Goalie, to not replacing Quinn externally and only signing 2 bottom pair defenders in Free Agency. I would learn from this and then go fire my coach and put Appert in as an Interm coach. 

No matter how well they do to end the year, you go out and hire the best coach available...you will have to hope that either Brind'Amour and / or Cooper are available to hire.  I do want to believe brining in RB'M was the goal from the onset but we will see

Over the holidays, I talk to every team in the league that has a legit top 4 dman available and you pay the price using draft picks, prospects and roster players.

 

 

 

[Taro T]

29 minutes ago, Marvin said:

As I live in an unfortunately real world, the Sabres need 2 coaches: 1 for the power play and 1 for team defence.  Whomever they have now are not working.  They can reassign the other guys as NHL scouts for all I care.  They really, really need a guy who can teach defencive zone awareness to the forwards in the worst way.  I am sick and tired of the forwards routine screw-ups on everything to do with defencive zone play, including on the backcheck.

I don't care about how much Jokiharu wants to be with Power; that pair must be split.  Indeed, I would look at moving Jokiharu for a more boring, less offensively gifted veteran RHD to a team that needs someone like him.  Heck, I would consider a pending UFA.

I think the idea of trading someone popular might really wake these guys up and, although my sentimental side is upset that I will say it, I think a sideways trade of Girgensons to a contender would be a real wake-up call.

Forgot to mention it in the game recap, but last night the old we have control of the puck (or think we have control of the puck) near our own goal line so the F's can all wait for a pass with 1 guy at the red line and the other 2 at the other blue line was REALLY noticable because they did that more than 10 times throughout the game.  Probably wasn't noticable on TV as once they're out of the zone the camera loses them, but it wasn't like one guy was waiting for the long bomb with the other 2 just outside the blue line.  All 3 were in the next time zone.

THAT has to end.

[SabreFinn]

They could start with learning how to play a solid Five skater defense in their d-zone. Now it is among the worst ever seen on a professional level. 

When they are checking along the boards they havet to be determined to win the puck. Now they are just tryin...

Luck is not something you get, it is something you deserve by working hard. (Write that on the lockerroom wall!).

The players just need a kick in the ass, a Hard one. I think the players on the roster could take the Sabres to play off IF they learn those three things. Or... I guess the play off has already starten, not the one we wanted, but still. The players need to realize that. Otherwise they will över make it.

[mjd1001]

2 hours ago, SabreFinn said:

They could start with learning how to play a solid Five skater defense in their d-zone. Now it is among the worst ever seen on a professional level. 

100% + agree. THIS is the single biggest problem on this team.

I know many have stopped replying to some of my comments because I'm not really saying much else, but the D-men are not the problem on this team, nor is goaltending (they both could be BETTER, but they aren't the problem). How the forwards pay in their own zone is the worst I have ever seen, worse than the Sabres tank teams, I think worse than some college teams I have watched.  If I was a D-man on this team I'd probably look really bad too because at times I'd be frozen in space, looking like I don't know what I'm doing because I am just in shock at how little support I get from the front 3 or just how many times the forward leave gaping, wide open holds in the slot for opposint teams to just walk right into. 

There are countles replays of goals allowed this year (and last) where the D-men get blamed, but when you break them down, the forwards either aren't there at all, or the forwards are just skating in circles on their own...and the D-men have to make a choice....cover their own guy..or step up and cover the slot or faceoff circle (prime scoring spots) where the forwards SHOULD be but aren't.  On THIS team, the D have to make a choice...if they guess and make the wrong choice...or they try to straddle both responsibilities but not do either one perfectly, it is THEM that look bad when its really the forwards hanging them out to dry.

If the reason for the forwards being so bad at this is coaching, then by all means, bring someone in who will fix this ONE aspect of the team.  But if its just the guys not 'getting it', then those forwards are the problem with the team (and Tage and Cozens lack of scoring). Its not the play of the D-men by themselves, not the goaltending, and not any other aspect of coaching other than the forwards being possibly the worst team ever at defending in their own zone and knowing where to be.

Scoring on this team may be down, mostly due to injuries and Tage and Cozens drop in production, and effort MAY become a problem as some players just get frustrated, but the lack of 'effort' will simply be a sign that is caused by the frustration at the lack of results due to losing mostly because they have zero clue how to defend and cover open opponents in their own zone.

Edited December 20, 2023 by mjd1001

[MISabresFan]

3 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

I honestly tried to stand behind Granato and wanted them to give him a chance with a full line-up but after last night I've changed my mind.

No longer can an assistant coach be a sacrificial lamb, the head coach needs to go 

we are now seeing regression across the board, defence that borders on keystone cops, and effort that only seems to show up against the top clubs in the league.

I imagine they are going to play well the next few games vs the Leafs, Rangers and Boston and then regress back to form vs Columbus on the 30th

If I was Adams, I would have a long hard look at myself to fully realize my role in the debacle of the 23/24 season.  From not bringing in a Vet Goalie, to not replacing Quinn externally and only signing 2 bottom pair defenders in Free Agency. I would learn from this and then go fire my coach and put Appert in as an Interm coach. 

No matter how well they do to end the year, you go out and hire the best coach available...you will have to hope that either Brind'Amour and / or Cooper are available to hire.  I do want to believe brining in RB'M was the goal from the onset but we will see

Over the holidays, I talk to every team in the league that has a legit top 4 dman available and you pay the price using draft picks, prospects and roster players.

 

 

 

Seth's record 96-79, GF 657, GA 711.  I'm not too fond of GA higher than GF.

[PerreaultForever]

58 minutes ago, SabreFinn said:

They could start with learning how to play a solid Five skater defense in their d-zone. Now it is among the worst ever seen on a professional level. 

When they are checking along the boards they havet to be determined to win the puck. Now they are just tryin...

Luck is not something you get, it is something you deserve by working hard. (Write that on the lockerroom wall!).

The players just need a kick in the ass, a Hard one. I think the players on the roster could take the Sabres to play off IF they learn those three things. Or... I guess the play off has already starten, not the one we wanted, but still. The players need to realize that. Otherwise they will över make it.

Granato claimed offense was harder, this was the easier part that came after. Granato was wrong. Granato needs to go. 

Vancouver was not unlike us in many ways. Tochet  has taught them to play team defense. Now they are already decent and tougher to play against. Philly's plan was become "hard to play against" first and then add the offense/talent. That too seems to be working. The "plan" is age old tried and true and should not be that difficult to bring to Buffalo........oh wait, I forgot, Pegula don't like that style. Never mind. 

[SabreFinn]

29 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Granato claimed offense was harder, this was the easier part that came after. Granato was wrong. Granato needs to go. 

Vancouver was not unlike us in many ways. Tochet  has taught them to play team defense. Now they are already decent and tougher to play against. Philly's plan was become "hard to play against" first and then add the offense/talent. That too seems to be working. The "plan" is age old tried and true and should not be that difficult to bring to Buffalo........oh wait, I forgot, Pegula don't like that style. Never mind. 

Every sport starts from defense! Pegula do not know hockey! (chocking news!!!)

[SabreFinn]

52 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

100% + agree. THIS is the single biggest problem on this team.

I know many have stopped replying to some of my comments because I'm not really saying much else, but the D-men are not the problem on this team, nor is goaltending (they both could be BETTER, but they aren't the problem). How the forwards pay in their own zone is the worst I have ever seen, worse than the Sabres tank teams, I think worse than some college teams I have watched.  If I was a D-man on this team I'd probably look really bad too because at times I'd be frozen in space, looking like I don't know what I'm doing because I am just in shock at how little support I get from the front 3 or just how many times the forward leave gaping, wide open holds in the slot for opposint teams to just walk right into. 

There are countles replays of goals allowed this year (and last) where the D-men get blamed, but when you break them down, the forwards either aren't there at all, or the forwards are just skating in circles on their own...and the D-men have to make a choice....cover their own guy..or step up and cover the slot or faceoff circle (prime scoring spots) where the forwards SHOULD be but aren't.  On THIS team, the D have to make a choice...if they guess and make the wrong choice...or they try to straddle both responsibilities but not do either one perfectly, it is THEM that look bad when its really the forwards hanging them out to dry.

If the reason for the forwards being so bad at his is coaching, then by all means, bring someone in who will fix this ONE aspect of the team.  But if its just the guys not 'getting it', they those forwards are the problem with the team (and Tage and Cozens lack of scoring). Its not the play of the D-men by themselves, not the goaltending, and not any other aspect of coaching other than the forwards being possibly the worst team ever at defending in their own zone and knowing where to be.

Scoring on this team may be down, mostly due to injuries and Tage and Cozens drop in production, and effort MAY become a problem as some players just get frustrated, but the lack of 'effort' will simply be a sign that is caused by the frustration at the lack of results due to losing mostly because they have zero clue how to defend and cover open opponents in their own zone.

Exactly! 

And when the defensive play is on a solid level their offense will be more relaxed and confident, and TNT is scoring again! Fixed!

And! Peca to NYR was a big misstake in my opinion. The rookies from Americans seemed better prepared last year. They should have found a place for Peca in the coaching staff.

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, SabreFinn said:

Luck is not something you get, it is something you deserve by working hard. (Write that on the lockerroom wall!).

Welcome to the board!

There is an old hockey saw that I would pull out every time that someone belittled Hasek for being "lucky" on some of his most outrageous saves.  "You have to be good to be lucky and lucky to be good.". Good players have habits that make them luckier than lesser players because their leverage is just right, or their shot "has eyes", and so on.

This team's gawd-awful defencive zone positioning, awareness, play reads, and play in general gives them numerous times to be unlucky every game.  Why are there often multiple Sabres screening the goalies?  Why are players slipping to the side of the net without anyone noticing?  Why don't the defencemen have at least 1 outlet forward all the time?  Why do the opposition routinely get someone open in the slot in our defencive zone?  These gaffes allow the opposition to get more chances to score which are also on average of a higher quality than normal.

[msw2112]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

Granato claimed offense was harder, this was the easier part that came after. Granato was wrong. Granato needs to go. 

Vancouver was not unlike us in many ways. Tochet  has taught them to play team defense. Now they are already decent and tougher to play against. Philly's plan was become "hard to play against" first and then add the offense/talent. That too seems to be working. The "plan" is age old tried and true and should not be that difficult to bring to Buffalo........oh wait, I forgot, Pegula don't like that style. Never mind. 

I recall Granto saying the opposite.  Offense was easier to teach to young players and it's more fun to play offensive hockey.  Plus, the young guys on the team had lots of speed and offensive skill.  Thus, he was going to start there, to get them to have some successes in the league, win some games, and build some confidence.  Once that happened, he would shift to defense, to make the team more well-rounded and complete.  I could be wrong, but that's what I recall.

As for Pegula, I really don't think the style of hockey the team is playing was selected by or heavily influenced by the owner.  And why would they pick Owen Power #1 overall instead of Matty Beniers, if that was the case?  I think that the style of hockey that Pegula prefers is winning hockey.  He just hasn't found the right combination of GM, coach, and players to produce enough of it.  That's not debatable!

[Crusader1969]

1 hour ago, MISabresFan said:

Seth's record 96-79, GF 657, GA 711.  I'm not too fond of GA higher than GF.

I just figure he is better than having Matt Ellis take over in the interim. 
I don't want them to hire a full time coach till summer 

[Marvin]

34 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

I recall Granto saying the opposite.  Offense was easier to teach to young players and it's more fun to play offensive hockey.  Plus, the young guys on the team had lots of speed and offensive skill.  Thus, he was going to start there, to get them to have some successes in the league, win some games, and build some confidence.  Once that happened, he would shift to defense, to make the team more well-rounded and complete.  I could be wrong, but that's what I recall.

As for Pegula, I really don't think the style of hockey the team is playing was selected by or heavily influenced by the owner.  And why would they pick Owen Power #1 overall instead of Matty Beniers, if that was the case?  I think that the style of hockey that Pegula prefers is winning hockey.  He just hasn't found the right combination of GM, coach, and players to produce enough of it.  That's not debatable!

I believe you are correct on Granato wanting the players to have success in the league on offence and then teaching defence.  Many, probably most, rebuilding teams over the years has this pattern.  I point you to the 1972-3 Buffalo Sabres as being one of the most successful ever to use this model.

I think the lack of mid-career players is being underestimated here and at 1 Seymour H. Knox III Plaza.  For instance, the young defencemen should have older guides to help them learn how to play more effectively.  More experienced forwards could reinforce the lessons on defence for the youngsters.  That does not even count how much more competitive the team would be through injuries.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

3 hours ago, SabreFinn said:

They could start with learning how to play a solid Five skater defense in their d-zone. Now it is among the worst ever seen on a professional level. 

When they are checking along the boards they havet to be determined to win the puck. Now they are just tryin...

Luck is not something you get, it is something you deserve by working hard. (Write that on the lockerroom wall!).

The players just need a kick in the ass, a Hard one. I think the players on the roster could take the Sabres to play off IF they learn those three things. Or... I guess the play off has already starten, not the one we wanted, but still. The players need to realize that. Otherwise they will över make it.

Welcome !!

Excellent post.

Where are you in Finland ??

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, msw2112 said:

I recall Granto saying the opposite.  Offense was easier to teach to young players and it's more fun to play offensive hockey.  Plus, the young guys on the team had lots of speed and offensive skill.  Thus, he was going to start there, to get them to have some successes in the league, win some games, and build some confidence.  Once that happened, he would shift to defense, to make the team more well-rounded and complete.  I could be wrong, but that's what I recall.

As for Pegula, I really don't think the style of hockey the team is playing was selected by or heavily influenced by the owner.  And why would they pick Owen Power #1 overall instead of Matty Beniers, if that was the case?  I think that the style of hockey that Pegula prefers is winning hockey.  He just hasn't found the right combination of GM, coach, and players to produce enough of it.  That's not debatable!

Pretty much, the general idea for Granato was that offense begets confidence and confidence makes learning defensive structure easier. Step 1 worked well for the most part however for a myriad of reasons the players seem unable or unwilling to adjust to a more well-rounded game. Some players have embraced playing defense more than others; Tage up to his hand injury looked far more active defensively and Mitts was back checking hard. Cozens seems mentally paralyzed due to the combination of trying to get his offense on track and simultaneously learning NHL level defensive positioning. Then there’s some players like Skinner and usually Olofsson whom just don’t play defense or they’ll cheat a lot. They likely look disjointed many nights due to this incomplete buyin. It might explain why we do well against top teams seeing as the team as a whole are more likely to buy in to a system in an underdog game. 

[Mango]

Two things: 

1. Terry Pegula, is, was, and will always be a problem. I sincerely believe that this city cannot afford to lose both McDermott or Beane. McDermott can get a new GM and Beane can get a new HC. But relying on Terry replace the entire org would destroy Buffalo as a sports town. This is a legitimate quote from Pegula in 2013 after his second season as owner.

Quote

“I think if you probably talk to other owners around the league, they might think that I may spend too much money,” Pegula said. “You may hear that or whatever, but that’s my style. … You might talk to some of the other owners around the league, and they’ll tell you, ‘Who’s this new owner? What is he, crazy? Why did you give this guy money or that guy?’ Hey, it’s my decision. It was something I wanted to do.”

https://buffalonews.com/sports/sabres/sabres-owner-pegula-states-his-case-for-regier/article_720ab6fa-7897-54ed-be8e-530b0e2e620e.html

2. When it comes to coaching or trades, I think the Sabres need to stand pat for the season. I had expectations of this being a 100 point team this year. That sounds lofty but it really only asking for about 5 more wins. Hell, 3 wins and a couple of OT losses would do the trick too. What we are seeing isn't close.

I have said the last few months that the first thing this org needs to do before moving any piece is ask the GM "what do we need to be successful" and if his shoot from the hip answer is anything similar to "time to develop" or "stay the course" then you pull the rip cord immediately. You escort the guy out of the building right then and there. Conversation over. No convincing. No "Fix it or you are done". That answer is from somebody who has no idea what they are seeing on the ice, which means they have no accurate solution. Any move by somebody who says that about this roster is only making performative moves to keep their job, not somebody who is making moves with a plan. 

I have a hard time hearing Adam's "this is an execution problem" as anything other than "stay the course". Any major move anywhere in the org needs to be executed by a new GM. 

3. Until you fix point number 1, I have little confidence in point number 2. 

[Pimlach]

The lapses, the slow starts, the terrible home record, the lack of ability's to get a win streak going.   

We have skill.  We have skaters.  We have young potential stars.   What else does it take?  

The right coach might help them find theirs.  

 

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Pimlach

[SabreFinn]

16 hours ago, Sabres Fan in NS said:

Welcome !!

Excellent post.

Where are you in Finland ??

Thank you!

I am from the Vasa region, Finland 

[bunomatic]

2 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

The lapses, the slow starts, the terrible home record, the lack of ability's to get a win streak going.   

We have skill.  We have skaters.  We have young potential stars.   What else does it take?  

 

 

Thats a good soundbite fer sure by Torts but if courage came from balls we’d camp in the crease. Some guys are just built different and every team seems to have a couple, some more than others. I’m not sure we have one.

[Marvin]

I find it more exasperating that they will execute the system to near perfection one game and be completely brain-dead the next.  Some of that is on the players and some is on the coaches.  With the age distribution of this team, I am afraid that we may have to ride it out.

[PASabreFan]

I needed @Mango during the trial! Well done.

Edited December 21, 2023 by PASabreFan

[Pimlach]

24 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I needed @Mango during rhe trial! Well done.

Was that the famous trail, Erie County versus @PASabreFan,  for crimes against Palookaville?  

[SwampD]

6 hours ago, Pimlach said:

The lapses, the slow starts, the terrible home record, the lack of ability's to get a win streak going.   

We have skill.  We have skaters.  We have young potential stars.   What else does it take?  

The right coach might help them find theirs.  

 

 

That was 2 weeks ago.

Weren't we told, by many, many people here, that the game has passed him by, and that he's a dinosaur whose methods would never work here,... like ten years ago!?

I swear that people want to make the game more complicated than it is. SMH!

Edited December 21, 2023 by SwampD

[Sabres Fan in NS]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

Was that the famous trail, Erie County versus @PASabreFan,  for crimes against Palookaville?  

You missed a beaut of a thread.  TP was on trial for meddling.  PA was the the Crown that wanted to hang the lot.  Judge Smell precided over the proceedings.  The gallery was packed every day just for the drama.  I think there was a hung jury or maybe the case was tossed .. I can't remember the verdict.

The search feature is your friend .. sometimes.