Sabres return Matt Savoie to WHL Wenatchee Wild

[K-9]

20 minutes ago, MattPie said:

While I mostly agree with you, a 19-year-old 5'9" player may well be better off gaining strength off-ice while playing against teenagers than getting rocked for 72 games in the A against 25-year-olds with no way to the NHL other than being hard-nosed players. In the end, Savoie isn't going to be ruined playing in the CHL this year, and it helps the Sabres by delaying the start of his pro contract timeline.

For crissakes, I’m am not even remotely suggesting Savoie is being ruined by returning to juniors. Just that his development is not best served by facing lesser competition night in and night out. 

I put zero stock in the idea that he is a delicate little waif who shouldn’t be subjected to withstanding a full season in the A playing against older men. If the rule prohibiting his eligibility to play in the AHL wasn't in force, he would still be in Rochester and nobody would be worried about it at all. And in his short stint in the A this year, he more than showed he is ready for that level. 
 

Playing in the A slides the NHL ELC so that is simply not a concern.

 

[LGR4GM]

5 hours ago, K-9 said:

As I’ve said before, it’s not that Savoie is too good for Jr hockey, it’s that Jr. hockey isn’t good enough for him. He can only fully develop by playing against superior competition and he simply won’t find much of that in the WHL. He needs to be in Rochester. The CHL rule prohibiting that is a detriment to players like Savoie and others who need a level of competition between juniors and the NHL to facilitate the their development. 

There's no reason for a Jr player to have to play 2 years in Jr's post draft

[LGR4GM]

11 minutes ago, steveoath said:

143 points in 57 games disagrees. 
 

 

Yup and Bedard was 17 where Savoie is about to turn 20. 

[K-9]

34 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

There's no reason for a Jr player to have to play 2 years in Jr's post draft

Especially dominant junior players.

[Archie Lee]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

For crissakes, I’m am not even remotely suggesting Savoie is being ruined by returning to juniors. Just that his development is not best served by facing lesser competition night in and night out. 

I put zero stock in the idea that he is a delicate little waif who shouldn’t be subjected to withstanding a full season in the A playing against older men. If the rule prohibiting his eligibility to play in the AHL wasn't in force, he would still be in Rochester and nobody would be worried about it at all. And in his short stint in the A this year, he more than showed he is ready for that level. 
 

Playing in the A slides the NHL ELC so that is simply not a concern.

 

You did say that “he can only develop playing stronger competition which he won’t in the WHL”. This is just wrong. If your opinion is that the best place for his development at this time is the AHL then that is fair, though subjective. There is zero evidence that a player like Savoie will have his development stunted by another year of Junior hockey. 

[K-9]

35 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

You did say that “he can only develop playing stronger competition which he won’t in the WHL”. This is just wrong. If your opinion is that the best place for his development at this time is the AHL then that is fair, though subjective. There is zero evidence that a player like Savoie will have his development stunted by another year of Junior hockey. 

Common sense suggests that skills are best honed against better competition. The better competition for Savoie just doesn’t reside in junior hockey. So yeah, the best place for Savoie and others like him is the AHL.

So I will amend the statement of mine you cited and instead of only develop, I’ll say best develop. 
 

And by the way, I said he can only fully develop playing better competition. That isn’t just a little tweak in context that you left out when quoting me. 

Edited November 21, 2023 by K-9

[Archie Lee]

48 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Common sense suggests that skills are best honed against better competition. The better competition for Savoie just doesn’t reside in junior hockey. So yeah, the best place for Savoie and others like him is the AHL.

So I will amend the statement of mine you cited and instead of only develop, I’ll say best develop. 
 

And by the way, I said he can only fully develop playing better competition. That isn’t just a little tweak in context that you left out when quoting me. 

It was an unintentional omission on my part, but I don’t see how the word “fully” changes the context.  Are you saying he can partially develop in Junior but not “fully”?  My view is that he can fully develop going back to junior for another year (I’m not predicting he will or won’t, I’m only stating that he can). The evidence for this is a long list of NHL stars who played their 19 yr old season in Junior. There is not a single player you can point to who went back to junior for their 19 year old season who then failed to develop, “fully” or otherwise, specifically because they went back to junior.  

[K-9]

55 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

It was an unintentional omission on my part, but I don’t see how the word “fully” changes the context.  Are you saying he can partially develop in Junior but not “fully”?  My view is that he can fully develop going back to junior for another year (I’m not predicting he will or won’t, I’m only stating that he can). The evidence for this is a long list of NHL stars who played their 19 yr old season in Junior. There is not a single player you can point to who went back to junior for their 19 year old season who then failed to develop, “fully” or otherwise, specifically because they went back to junior.  

If you can’t accept the premise that playing against better competition is better for a player’s development, fine. I have nothing more to add to this conversation. 

[FrenchConnection44]

Main thing Savoie has to do is get stronger physically and tougher. Can’t coast and think because he is scoring that he’ll be fine. He has to hit the weights and work his ass off. If he gets stronger and faster he will be going in the right direction. But I too wish he were in Rochester. It’s absurd that he’s not able to. Agree with the “one exception” rule that they should try to implement. 

[Doohickie]

26 minutes ago, FrenchConnection44 said:

Agree with the “one exception” rule that they should try to implement. 

It won't go through and here's why:  Let's say the Wenatchee Wild had a good program, brings in great players and is very good at developing them.  Instead of reaping the benefits of their work their team would be picked clean of their NHL prospects and it would hurt the team.  That's the reason for the current rule on the whole league.  If there was some limited plundering allowed it could affect the best teams disproportionately.

[Weave]

16 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

It won't go through and here's why:  Let's say the Wenatchee Wild had a good program, brings in great players and is very good at developing them.  Instead of reaping the benefits of their work their team would be picked clean of their NHL prospects and it would hurt the team.  That's the reason for the current rule on the whole league.  If there was some limited plundering allowed it could affect the best teams disproportionately.

I’m not sure the logic, as provided here, works.  If every team had 1 jr age player in the CHL that warranted a spot in the AHL, there would be 32 players spread among 3 leagues that are affected. And a good team in ‘23 is frequently set up to be a rebuilding team in ‘24.

Where complications would arise is with CHL trades.  I would think trades involving higher end drafted players would have much more risk for teams that are trying to muscle up for a Memorial Cup run.  I don’t know how a CHL team could plan and chase a Memorial Cup if they can’t assume that the best players will be available.

 

And after typing all that out, maybe we are saying the same thing, lol.

[French Collection]

1 minute ago, Weave said:

I’m not sure the logic, as provided here, works.  If every team had 1 jr age player in the CHL that warranted a spot in the AHL, there would be 32 players spread among 3 leagues that are affected. And a good team in ‘23 is frequently set up to be a rebuilding team in ‘24.

Where complications would arise is with CHL trades.  I would think trades involving higher end drafted players would have much more risk for teams that are trying to muscle up for a Memorial Cup run.  I don’t know how a CHL team could plan and chase a Memorial Cup if they can’t assume that the best players will be available.

 

And after typing all that out, maybe we are saying the same thing, lol.

Most of the trades are around the deadline ( mid January) so these guys would already be in the AHL/NHL already.

[MattPie]

4 minutes ago, French Collection said:

Most of the trades are around the deadline ( mid January) so these guys would already be in the AHL/NHL already.

Do off-season trades commonly happen in the CHL? I could see a situation where a team only has 1-2 legit players in their last year for whatever reason and trades them away to get better picks at the end of the season.

[French Collection]

2 hours ago, MattPie said:

Do off-season trades commonly happen in the CHL? I could see a situation where a team only has 1-2 legit players in their last year for whatever reason and trades them away to get better picks at the end of the season.

Teams seem to go into a rebuild cycle every 3-5 years, you only have guys for 4 years.

Some teams like London are good every year, the Hunters find and attract talent. May not always be on the right side of rules.

Some more remote teams seem to be in perpetual rebuild. Poor management, Toronto kids don’t always want to go north, play the NCAA angle if drafted by certain teams.

There are offseason trades but teams sell off big time at the deadline if they’re not going deep. Almost every team makes the playoffs but they know who the powerhouses are.

[Pimlach]

19 hours ago, Archie Lee said:

You did say that “he can only develop playing stronger competition which he won’t in the WHL”. This is just wrong. If your opinion is that the best place for his development at this time is the AHL then that is fair, though subjective. There is zero evidence that a player like Savoie will have his development stunted by another year of Junior hockey. 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by Pimlach

[pastajoe]

 

[inkman]

2 minutes ago, pastajoe said:

 

Averaging more than a goal a game.   These rules suuuuuuuuck.  

[DarthEbriate]

22 minutes ago, inkman said:

Averaging more than a goal a game.   These rules suuuuuuuuck.  

Unless you're a Wenatchee fan with an inaugural season that could be pretty awesome.

[GASabresIUFAN]

The CHL dies without its star players. The rules are there to keep the league viable like it or not.  Should there be certain exceptions?  Of course, but if you take every player like Savoie and move them at 18 or 19 to the AHL it would destroy the CHL and also send many veteran AHLers out of hockey or to Europe. Many of these vets are important to the development of young AHLers. 

[French Collection]

He is making it impossible for Team Canada to ignore him for the WJHC. He wasn’t even invited to camp last year and that has probably put a truck sized chip on his shoulder.

The international challenge and having him compete with his peers will be great to watch. The exceptional 16 and 17 year olds make appearances but this is mainly a 19 year old tournament.

[Crusader1969]

I hope there will be a rule named after our boy.   He dominates the WHL so badly that they will allow NHL teams an exemption for a top 10 draft pick that has clearly outgrown the CHL in his draft +2 year and put said player in AHL. 

worst part of this is that Savoie already proved he is quite capable of playing in the AHL at a very high level 

[Crusader1969]

 

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The CHL dies without its star players. The rules are there to keep the league viable like it or not.  Should there be certain exceptions?  Of course, but if you take every player like Savoie and move them at 18 or 19 to the AHL it would destroy the CHL and also send many veteran AHLers out of hockey or to Europe. Many of these vets are important to the development of young AHLers. 

I don't agree.  The CHL will survive just as well without a guy like Savoie. 
is there an example of someone playing in the OHL in the same circumstance?   Top 10 pick and draft plus 2 year ? 

3 hours ago, DarthEbriate said:

Unless you're a Wenatchee fan with an inaugural season that could be pretty awesome.

It should be about the player not the team or the league 

[French Collection]

8 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

is there an example of someone playing in the OHL in the same circumstance?   Top 10 pick and draft plus 2 year ? 

No one is doing that in the OHL this year.

Quentin Musty D+1 first rounder, 28 points in 15 games, is almost as hot.

Shane Wright wasn’t putting up Savoie comparable numbers in the OHL last year after his return. It was his D+1 year as well.

[Crusader1969]

3 minutes ago, French Collection said:

No one is doing that in the OHL this year.

Quentin Musty D+1 first rounder, 28 points in 15 games, is almost as hot.

Shane Wright wasn’t putting up Savoie comparable numbers in the OHL last year after his return. It was his D+1 year as well.

Exactly. Shane Wright gets an exemption cause he is born a few days before Savoie? 

Hope he continues to make a mockery of the league! 

[French Collection]

3 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Exactly. Shane Wright gets an exemption cause he is born a few days before Savoie? 

Hope he continues to make a mockery of the league! 

My wife and son met him at a hotel last winter. He seemed to be sour about having a chat and taking a picture with minor hockey players.