Jost, Krebs and the Bottom 6 Problem!

[Curt]

2 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Say there is no “4th line” in their future 

just roll 4 solid skilled lines.  
 

is there anything wrong with a future Centre spine of 

Thompson
Cozens
Mittlestadt
Kulich

????

you then have plug them in with

Tuch Greenway

JJP. Quinn

Rosen.  Savoie

Benson.      xx

the last winger would be someone in the Greenway / Tuch mold 

big , Fast, veteran who doesn’t  mind throwing their weight around and is defensively responsible    But has more offensive upside than Girgs 

krebs, Girgs and Jost can battle to be the 13th forward if they are still around 

In my opinion, this isn’t really feasible at a high level.  You kind of need a lock down defensive line that you can send out for a key shift in the defensive zone, or to take extra shifts when protecting a lead.  It doesn’t need to be numbered a 4th line, but you need one that can fill the role.  I don’t see anything’s like that listed above.

Also, it’s generally not maintainable from a financial standpoint.

[inkman]

2 hours ago, inkman said:

Nor do I think he’s in the organ-eye-zation (sorry Kozak truthers) 

 

2 hours ago, Huckleberry said:

Kozak ?

 

[Weave]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

In my opinion, this isn’t really feasible at a high level.  You kind of need a lock down defensive line that you can send out for a key shift in the defensive zone, or to take extra shifts when protecting a lead.  It doesn’t need to be numbered a 4th line, but you need one that can fill the role.  I don’t see anything’s like that listed above.

Also, it’s generally not maintainable from a financial standpoint.

Its also not realistic to have 8 wingers that can play that game at a level to make it work.

[Crusader1969]

1 hour ago, Curt said:

In my opinion, this isn’t really feasible at a high level.  You kind of need a lock down defensive line that you can send out for a key shift in the defensive zone, or to take extra shifts when protecting a lead.  It doesn’t need to be numbered a 4th line, but you need one that can fill the role.  I don’t see anything’s like that listed above.

Also, it’s generally not maintainable from a financial standpoint.

Their top penalty killers seem to be Thompson and Greenway.   Plus I think they need to add 1 more winger who can play the defensive/ checking role but can provide more offence than say girgensons.  
I’ll have to look this up but who was the 4th line on the 2005 Sabres ?

[Skibum]

5 minutes ago, Crusader1969 said:

Their top penalty killers seem to be Thompson and Greenway.   Plus I think they need to add 1 more winger who can play the defensive/ checking role but can provide more offence than say girgensons.  
I’ll have to look this up but who was the 4th line on the 2005 Sabres ?

Mair-Grier-Gaustad? With a sprinkling of Pyatt, Peters, and... the legendary Jiri Novotny?

[dudacek]

30 minutes ago, Skibum said:

Mair-Grier-Gaustad? With a sprinkling of Pyatt, Peters, and... the legendary Jiri Novotny?

 

Grier played with Drury most of the time, against tough opponents

The "4th line" was Gaustad and a cast of thousands. Some of the guys you said, for sure, but that team had 11 "top six" forwards: Hecht Dumont Briere Afinogenov Roy Vanek Drury Grier Connoly Kotalik Pominville.

Briere Connolly and Hecht missed a lot games.

Edited October 31, 2023 by dudacek

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

The biggest issue with Krebs vs Mitts and TNT is time.  When Mitts and TNT were coming up the organization was in development mode. Now the team is in playoff mode and everyone is expected to contribute.

I'm not going to make a conclusive judgment just yet on Krebs. If it gets to the point where he is hurting the team, then of course he should be replaced. Last year, when he played with Okposo and Girgs he contributed to making it a good defensive line. He does have good vision and can set up his line mates. As you well know, there have been a number of players prematurely targeted as lost causes. He's still very young and hopefully there is an upside to tap into. There are a number of young prospects waiting in the wings. They are close to being ready but not there yet. Let's exhibit more patience with him. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Let's exhibit more patience with him. 

It's really not a question of patience.  It's really a question of possibly better players pushing him out the door as they develop.  At some point, one of the guys is just going to pass him by.  

[JohnC]

20 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

It's really not a question of patience.  It's really a question of possibly better players pushing him out the door as they develop.  At some point, one of the guys is just going to pass him by.  

I'm not disagreeing with you that there will come a time when he is likely to be supplanted. I don't think it is now. I prefer seeing the youngsters get a lot of playing time in Rochester before moving up the ranks. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by JohnC

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, Curt said:

In my opinion, this isn’t really feasible at a high level.  You kind of need a lock down defensive line that you can send out for a key shift in the defensive zone, or to take extra shifts when protecting a lead.  It doesn’t need to be numbered a 4th line, but you need one that can fill the role.  I don’t see anything’s like that listed above.

Also, it’s generally not maintainable from a financial standpoint.

 

Right on 

[Curt]

2 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

Their top penalty killers seem to be Thompson and Greenway.   Plus I think they need to add 1 more winger who can play the defensive/ checking role but can provide more offence than say girgensons.  
I’ll have to look this up but who was the 4th line on the 2005 Sabres ?

I’m not talking about the penalty kill though……..

2005 4C was Gaustad.  The wingers were not that consistent.  None of the lines were particularly consistent.  Ruff shifted guys a lot.  They also had Drury who would do a lot of that heavy lifting defensively.

[Archie Lee]

Worst case scenario with Krebs is he is a versatile bottom six forward who can kill a penalty, win a draw, get under the other teams skin. If those are the things he can do in the NHL, then he will probably be better at them when he is 25-26 than  he is at 22. No need to lose patience or be disappointed yet.  No reason he can’t be our Casey Cizikas. 

Edited October 31, 2023 by Archie Lee

[kas23]

4 hours ago, klos1963 said:

He hasn't earned better wingers. Which productive center do you take those good wingers from?

Lots of talk about Mitts in this thread. People seem to remember him at the age of 22 and him playing like trash. But, let’s recall not just a year ago, Mitts was still playing like hot trash. His wingers were Jost and VO.
 

He got real wingers near the end of the season and has been playing lights out since. Wingers matter. Not going to argue about not taking wingers away from CM or TT, but let’s not write off Krebs while his wingers are KO and Girgs. 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, kas23 said:

Lots of talk about Mitts in this thread. People seem to remember him at the age of 22 and him playing like trash. But, let’s recall not just a year ago, Mitts was still playing like hot trash. His wingers were Jost and VO.
 

He got real wingers near the end of the season and has been playing lights out since. Wingers matter. Not going to argue about not taking wingers away from CM or TT, but let’s not write off Krebs while his wingers are KO and Girgs. 

Actually, when Jost 1st showed up, he tended to get the C shifts on that line and that really gave Mittelstadt an opportunity to not have to try to do everything for his line (which, while the 2nd winger changed a fair amount over the 1st weeks of the season was primarily him, Olofsson, and Asplund).  Mitts was winning puck battles when those 2 were his linemates, but he then had nowhere to go with the puck and lost it along the boards fairly consistently.   When Jost got onto that line, Mitts started to pick up significantly as he now had someone to pass to.

Mitts was playing well before Thompson got injured and Granato swapped the 2 to give Thompson the chance to have less responsibility on the 2nd line's W.  Which is why Granato was comfortable with making that move.

 

[French Collection]

35 minutes ago, Archie Lee said:

Worst case scenario with Krebs is he is a versatile bottom six forward who can kill a penalty, win a draw, get under the other teams skin. If those are the things he can do in the NHL, then he will probably be better at them when he is 25-26 than  he is at 22. No need to lose patience or be disappointed yet.  No reason he can’t be our Casey Cizikas. 

This is where he can find a niche on the team. If he embraces the 4C role and works hard to be the best at that role, none of the upcoming prospects will move him out of that spot. Benson, Savoie, Kulich, Rosen, Östlund, Wahlberg may all battle for top 9 roles and may not be suited for the 4th line. This is where Rousek or Cederqvist can carve out a role as well if the other prospects are not defensively competent enough for the 4th line.

I can see an energy 4th line more than pure shutdown style. An offensive minded rookie could get ice time with Krebs and Rousek/Girgs once KO retires. This would be similar to Krebs’ own apprenticeship. The rookie either outshines the 4th line role, embraces it or moves on.

Perhaps none of Savoie, Kulich, Östlund or Wahlberg are suited to play 4C.

[Mango]

3 hours ago, Skibum said:

Mair-Grier-Gaustad? With a sprinkling of Pyatt, Peters, and... the legendary Jiri Novotny?

Andrew Peters, man was he a frustrating player. He was big with little other skill so was just sort of dubbed an enforcer. But he sucked at that too. Every memory I have of a Peters fight he lost. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

8 minutes ago, French Collection said:

Perhaps none of Savoie, Kulich, Östlund or Wahlberg are suited to play 4C.

This is a very fair question.  It may depend on how DG plans to deploy the 4th line. Is it going to be a traditional physical checking line or just another speedy scoring line. 

With Z, KO, VO and Jost all UFAs after this season (Mitts & Krebs are RFAs), KA will have a great deal of leeway to decide how many of these kids really get a shot next year.  That could easily work in Krebs' favor.  

8 of the top 9 for next year are probably written in stone (TNT, Skinner, Tuch, Quinn, Cozens, JJP, Mitts and Greenway).  That doesn't leave much room for more than one of the top 4 kids (Savoie, Benson, Kulich and Rosen) or Krebs.

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

This is a very fair question.  It may depend on how DG plans to deploy the 4th line. Is it going to be a traditional physical checking line or just another speedy scoring line. 

With Z, KO, VO and Jost all UFAs after this season (Mitts & Krebs are RFAs), KA will have a great deal of leeway to decide how many of these kids really get a shot next year.  That could easily work in Krebs' favor.  

8 of the top 9 for next year are probably written in stone (TNT, Skinner, Tuch, Quinn, Cozens, JJP, Mitts and Greenway).  That doesn't leave much room for more than one of the top 4 kids (Savoie, Benson, Kulich and Rosen) or Krebs.

I think all four UFAs you mentioned are gone next year, and all four kids are on the team. It's not what I want, but I think it's what happens. 

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, Curt said:

In my opinion, this isn’t really feasible at a high level.  You kind of need a lock down defensive line that you can send out for a key shift in the defensive zone, or to take extra shifts when protecting a lead.  It doesn’t need to be numbered a 4th line, but you need one that can fill the role.  I don’t see anything’s like that listed above.

Also, it’s generally not maintainable from a financial standpoint.

It is definitely not feasible to have 4 skill lines. The cap doesn't allow it. At the moment we're actually over paying the fourth line for what they bring. I wanted them to start building a proper 4th line this year but they stayed the course so it'll have to wait I guess. I actually do see Krebs as that 4th line center but it'll be on a cheap contract. Curtis Lazar cheap. 

[Doohickie]

10 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

It's really not a question of patience.  It's really a question of possibly better players pushing him out the door as they develop.  At some point, one of the guys is just going to pass him by.  

But by then, are Olofsson, Okposo & Girgs off the team?  Are those the spots that the new guys take?  It's probably gonna take 4 guys moving up to bump him off the team altogether.

[Doohickie]

8 hours ago, Hank said:

I think all four UFAs you mentioned are gone next year, and all four kids are on the team. It's not what I want, but I think it's what happens. 

I think they retain one of Jost or Girgs.

[GASabresIUFAN]

58 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

But by then, are Olofsson, Okposo & Girgs off the team?  Are those the spots that the new guys take?  It's probably gonna take 4 guys moving up to bump him off the team altogether.

The issue with that is how do you integrate 4 rookies forwards (a 25% forward turnover) on a team expected to compete for a Cup? Do you create a 4th line of rookies? Do you sprinkle one on each of the 4 lines?  If management views these guys as top 9 players which returning vets do you drop to the 4th line?  

I’m not saying this won’t happen, but that would take the NHL’s youngest team and make it significantly younger.  

I can see KA bringing in 2 of the kids.  The two will be Kulich and Rosen.  IMHO they will be the two most ready to play in the NHL.  

I know Savoie and Benson might have the most upside.  However, I am still of the opinion that both return to Juniors at some point this season and both start next year in Rochester.  This is likely a minority point of view, especially given how the Sabres have handled both players recently.  I think KA will want to delay part of the next waves arrival and allow these two to get stronger.  

 

[inkman]

8 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

It is definitely not feasible to have 4 skill lines. The cap doesn't allow it. At the moment we're actually over paying the fourth line for what they bring. I wanted them to start building a proper 4th line this year but they stayed the course so it'll have to wait I guess. I actually do see Krebs as that 4th line center but it'll be on a cheap contract. Curtis Lazar cheap. 

I’ve come full circle on Girgs and Okie manning the 4th line.  Would I like it if they hit a little more and fought occasionally?  Of course but in today’s NHL, it may be a detriment.  They unfortunately don’t have a lot of replacements in the pipeline.  This is when GMKA needs to work his magic and bring in some Goodrow, Lafferty, Jeanout types to give the bottom of the roster that playoff jam they’ll need. 

[Pimlach]

5 minutes ago, inkman said:

I’ve come full circle on Girgs and Okie manning the 4th line.  Would I like it if they hit a little more and fought occasionally?  Of course but in today’s NHL, it may be a detriment.  They unfortunately don’t have a lot of replacements in the pipeline.  This is when GMKA needs to work his magic and bring in some Goodrow, Lafferty, Jeanout types to give the bottom of the roster that playoff jam they’ll need. 

Girgs was in a fight already this season, almost two.  Okposo had half the Avs after him for the “push” to Mekar who basically lost an edge due to his own carelessness.  

[Doohickie]

3 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Okposo had half the Avs after him for the “push” to Mekar who basically lost an edge due to his own carelessness.  

Makar said that the fall was his fault in the postgame interview.