GDT: Flames @ Sabres, Oct. 19, 2023 - 7pm EDT, MSG 📺 WGR 📻

[inkman]

32 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I know you dunked em in scotch after many a Sabre loss in the early days. Dodo always rolled her eyes.

I’ll never understand the Oreos and milk thing.  Then again I think milk is absolutely disgusting.  

[Ross Rhea]

10 hours ago, Randall Flagg said:

If our goaltending room was in better shape the question I'd be asking based on what I've seen so far is "should we send Levi down? Is that best for his development?"

The conversation is instead forced along the lines of "how often can we get away with starting this kid without completely wearing him out? it appears that 4 games in a row is the line we have to toe" 

Levi may be the best of just an average group, that's not good enough, sick of seeing the Sabres consistently outgoaltended by tomato cans. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Ross Rhea

[CallawaySabres]

I like what the Sabres are doing here. Fly under the radar, drop to the bottom of the conference again, and then....BOOM! Right when the rest of the NHL thinks we are the same old Sabres after a 2-8 start, we come rising out of the ashes like a phoenix.

[Randall Flagg]

vs NYI tomorrow and vs MTL after that. Need 4/4 points, simple

[SwampD]

Man, they played some dumb hockey last night.

WTF was with the cross ice passes at our own blue line through traffic!? Don said it best, they tried to pass their way to the net. Someone’s gotta just ***** skate!

Tage needs to get his “arrogance” back. Stop passing and start shooting.

[sabremike]

21 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

vs NYI tomorrow and vs MTL after that. Need 4/4 points, simple

We are getting Varlamov instead of Sorokin and they are playing tonight vs NJ.

NO ***** EXCUSES

[Pimlach]

10 minutes ago, sabremike said:

We are getting Varlamov instead of Sorokin and they are playing tonight vs NJ.

NO ***** EXCUSES

<sigh>  Varlamov would be the #1 on our team.  

 

[sabremike]

3 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

<sigh>  Varlamov would be the #1 on our team.  

 

Sean Burke could come out of retirement tomorrow and be #1 on our team.

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, Mango said:

To this point I think we have enough Ryan Johnson’s, Dahlins, and Powers. We need a blue chip guy who digs his skates in and stands hard at the blue line. 
 

Simialryl, we have enough Thompson’s, Cozens, Skinners, who can’t or won’t play both ways. The entire pipeline is chock full of those guys. It’s not a coincidence that Mitts/Greenway are standing out. 
 

The team lacks balance in approach and in personnel. Somebody mentioned that Greenway is looking better than Meier right now. Looks like the right decision. But honestly this team could us both Greenway and Meier.
 

We’re just not tough enough in both directions. If we can provide high level support in both directions watch life get easier for Skinner, Cozens, Thompson. 

I think Cozens is a two way player.  Slow start this season but I would not say he can't or won't play both ways.  Similarly, Tage and Skinner can play both ways, the coach and the system must demand more from everyone.  

People complain that the team is not big.  This year they are top five in both average height and weight. 

People complain they aren't tough - some of that comes from being an experienced veteran of which we have only a few. 

This is a slow start because we are not getting production from the top players.   Everyone forgets that the rest of the league is no longer surprised by the Sabres.  Team focus on Thompson and Dahlin, that means others have to perform and pick up their game.  

Did Adams do enough in the offseason?   

-  Levi is a 21 year old rookie that was anointed the #1 goalie with 7 games of pro experience - what other GMs do that? 

-  We essentially replaced Quinn with an 18 year old 170 pound rookie and it is pretty sad to see that on most nights the kid has been one of the hardest workers on the ice

-  EJ is helping but Clifton's mistakes loom large without the Boston team there to help.  Joker is still the same.  Bryson is our 7.  

Does this sound like enough? 

Ok, this is a slow start, we spent the preseason looking at players.   It si time for them to wake up and work harder.   Lets hope they can right the ship and avoid the losing streaks that we are all to accustomed to seeing.  

Edited October 20, 2023 by Pimlach

[PASabreFan]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

But I got us a goalie right away, and I brought in veterans to show the way, and I would never put out a team that got pushed around either.  
 

Oreos are my favorite.   Oreos and Glenn Livett 

After you dunked one or two or eight, Dodo would take your hat off and stroke what was left of your hair and tell you to not stay up so late.

That woman was a saint.

[Pimlach]

1 minute ago, PASabreFan said:

After you dunked one or two or eight, Dodo would take your hat off and stroke what was left of your hair and tell you to not stay up so late.

That woman was a saint.

Just trying to coax a few more goals out of Dickie Duff, Donny Marshall, and Phil Goyette.  

[...]

1 hour ago, Ross Rhea said:

Levi may be the best of just an average group, that's not good enough, sick of seeing the Sabres consistently outgoaltended by tomato cans. 

Levi played fine under the circumstances last night. I recognize he made some gaffs but that's because he shouldn't have played 4/4 games; he needed to have at least one of those off. Other than the gaffs he looks like he can keep us in games which is more than can be said about the other two.

[Pimlach]

19 minutes ago, ... said:

Levi played fine under the circumstances last night. I recognize he made some gaffs but that's because he shouldn't have played 4/4 games; he needed to have at least one of those off. Other than the gaffs he looks like he can keep us in games which is more than can be said about the other two.

He played his worst game and yet he kept us in the game.  I counted 6 huge saves.  If he rests the 5th game he is averaging 80% of the games, or 65 of the 82 - obviously not even close to a sustainable pace. 

Obvious to some anyway.    

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

I think Cozens is a two way player.  Slow start this season but I would not say he can't or won't play both ways.  Similarly, Tage and Skinner can play both ways, the coach and the system must demand more from everyone.  

People complain that the team is not big.  This year they are top five in both average height and weight. 

People complain they aren't tough - some of that comes from being an experienced veteran of which we have only a few. 

This is a slow start because we are not getting production from the top players.   Everyone forgets that the rest of the league is no longer surprised by the Sabres.  Team focus on Thompson and Dahlin, that means others have to perform and pick up their game.  

Did Adams do enough in the offseason?   

-  Levi is a 21 year old rookie that was anointed the #1 goalie with 7 games of pro experience - what other GMs do that? 

-  We essentially replaced Quinn with an 18 year old 170 pound rookie and it is pretty sad to see that on most nights the kid has been one of the hardest workers on the ice

-  EJ is helping but Clifton's mistakes loom large without the Boston team there to help.  Joker is still the same.  Bryson is our 7.  

Does this sound like enough? 

Ok, this is a slow start, we spent the preseason looking at players.   It si time for them to wake up and work harder.   Lets hope they can right the ship and avoid the losing streaks that we are all to accustomed to seeing.  

I am high on Thompson the goal scorer. I do not like Tage Thompsons 200 foot game. But I can agree that historically Cozens has been a bit better in both directions. Both have played better with a power forward on their line.

Part of the top 6 not producing is the top 6 giving up too many chances in their own end. I don't think it is as simple as separating their games in the offensive and defensive zone. We have been among the worst 5v5 teams 4 games in. That is not just a lack of scoring, although it would certainly help. 

I think we need another power forward to slot into the top 6. 

In regards to personnel/Adams, I totally agree. There are other issues on the roster that aren't helping. And it isn't just one offseason. Of course there were certain options that weren't available this season. But this roster is a conglomeration of not addressing defense and goaltending for 4 years. 

I am having a hard time understanding the plan as I start to put together the specific nuts and bolts. I keep hearing "we are young and we need to mature" on repeat. But like....where do all these guys go, and what is their value? I think you have to keep Mitts. So who replaces Girgenson, Jost, Krebs, Okposo next year?  Or Greenway in 2025? We don't have anybody in the pipeline. We have better offensive weapons, but these guys fill a different role. What happens in 2025 with Quinn and JJP. This seems to be the easiest swap for some of the prospects. But if we are allowing these two to stumble in the name of progression, and we don't extend (we will), then what's the point of allowing them to stumble? What's the point in protecting the prospects if they never make the NHL roster? 
 

[Mango]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

There in lies the rub.  Levi is by far the best of the 3 goalies. Could he have benefited from a month or two in the AHL?  Sure. Of course. 

Are we going with UPL and Comrie?  If yes, we are bottom feeders again. 

Are we trying to win and make the playoffs?   That answer should be “yes”.  
 

How many off seasons wasted by not bringing in a NHL goalie?  Oh, but Adams brought Tokarski back again, that’s right. 

I think that if Levi is the generational goalie that the Sabres seem to think he is, you protect his development at all costs. For a regime that has been so long term focused, this one is very desperate and short sighted. 

We save all of this cap space for "the future". And take a weird moral high ground in not "overpaying Ullmark". I just don't get it. WTF are we using the money we saved for now? Ullmark/Comrie last year and this year. Ullmark/Levi for 2024-25. Levin/??? 26. That feels responsible and still a very quick progression for a goaltender in the NHL. 

We didn't use the $6M last year and we aren't using the $6M this year. So if we aren't adding anything with it, we aren't saving it either. 

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, Mango said:

I think that if Levi is the generational goalie that the Sabres seem to think he is, you protect his development at all costs. For a regime that has been so long term focused, this one is very desperate and short sighted. 

We save all of this cap space for "the future". And take a weird moral high ground in not "overpaying Ullmark". I just don't get it. WTF are we using the money we saved for now? Ullmark/Comrie last year and this year. Ullmark/Levi for 2024-25. Levin/??? 26. That feels responsible and still a very quick progression for a goaltender in the NHL. 

We didn't use the $6M last year and we aren't using the $6M this year. So if we aren't adding anything with it, we aren't saving it either. 

In Ullmark's case I think it was more his demands coupled with his injury frequency.

[Gatorman0519]

4 hours ago, Crusader1969 said:

they are all ready playoff contenders. You want to pretend last year didnt happen? and we are 4 games into this season. Its not like every other team they are competing with are all 4-0 either.

What happened last year? We scored a lot of goals and gave up even more.  Did not make the playoffs. 4 games in we don't score a lot of goals and still get scored on a lot.  Unless this team suddenly finds a serious defensive game and get decent goaltending, we go nowhere again. What we can't do is start out like 3-6-1 and then have to run the table the last part of the season when we finally start playing good. 

[Thorny]

The issue supposedly being Ullmark’s “demands” is merely a smokescreen for the real issue, which was our failure to meet said demands

a miscalculation of the net (result, and the position). Prioritization of a tree before the forest 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Thorny

[Mango]

16 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

In Ullmark's case I think it was more his demands coupled with his injury frequency.

I don't disagree. 

But my point is what is that $6M providing to us right now? Would you rather have $6M in cap space or another capable, even often injured goalie on the roster? Even if you pay Ullmark $6M for 35 games. For $6M we could get 35 decent games from an NHL starter and given us the freedom to allow Levi to mature a bit in Rochester, maybe get 20 games this year, before thrusting him into 40, 50, 60 NHL games out of the gate. 

 

[JKorab54]

4 hours ago, SwampD said:

Man, they played some dumb hockey last night.

WTF was with the cross ice passes at our own blue line through traffic!? Don said it best, they tried to pass their way to the net. Someone’s gotta just ***** skate!

Tage needs to get his “arrogance” back. Stop passing and start shooting.

There were long stretches in the second period in particular the game was hard to watch. Dumb passes, no rhythm, no energy, sloppy puck handling,  overall disjointed play. They were not even close to what they looked like at the end of last year. How can the same group looked like they regressed that much?

[thewookie1]

22 minutes ago, Mango said:

I don't disagree. 

But my point is what is that $6M providing to us right now? Would you rather have $6M in cap space or another capable, even often injured goalie on the roster? Even if you pay Ullmark $6M for 35 games. For $6M we could get 35 decent games from an NHL starter and given us the freedom to allow Levi to mature a bit in Rochester, maybe get 20 games this year, before thrusting him into 40, 50, 60 NHL games out of the gate. 

 

In hindsight I'd certainly agree but at the time I firmly understood why we let him walk. Ullmark was an often injured goalie who was ok to good most games but ran into issues every year. Not exactly a great choice for a 5x6mil contract. Adams misinterpreted Ullmark's desires and then tried and failed multiple times to replace his level of play with other goalies. Not entirely due to negligence but still a failure overall.

Let's quickly run through a few goaltending seasons

18-19 Hutton 48 GS, Ullmark 34 GS  (Hutton was actually better statistically)

19-20 Ullmark 34 GS, Hutton 30 GS, Johansson 5 GS  (Ullmark was the better goalie by a serious margin however missed time again)

20-21 Ullmark 20 GS, Hutton 12 GS, Tokarski 10 GS, Johansson 6 GS, UPL 4 GS, Houser 4 GS (Ullmark was very good again but failed to even be available for half of a 56 game season) 

21-22 Anderson 31 GS, Tokarski 28 GS, Dell 9 GS, UPL 9 GS, Subban 3 GS, Houser 2 GS (Injuries plagued almost the entire goaltending unit

22-23 UPL 32 GS, Anderson 24 GS, Comrie 19 GS, Levi 7 GS (Turns out UPLs great appearance in the previous season was a mirage aside from a month of high end play) 

23-24 Levi 4 GS, UPL 0 GS, Comrie 0 GS (So far Levi looks average)

 

Ullmark as a starter maxed out at 34 starts for the Sabres which he did twice. Always put up great stats but got hurt with high frequency. In Boston he has thus far started 39 and 48 games which easily tops his previous highs.

 

[Crusader1969]

1 hour ago, Gatorman0519 said:

What happened last year? We scored a lot of goals and gave up even more.  Did not make the playoffs. 4 games in we don't score a lot of goals and still get scored on a lot.  Unless this team suddenly finds a serious defensive game and get decent goaltending, we go nowhere again. What we can't do is start out like 3-6-1 and then have to run the table the last part of the season when we finally start playing good. 

when you miss the playoffs by a point , im sure thats considered a playoff contender.

Not disputing that things haven't improved so far this season but its still WAYYYY early 

[sabremike]

34 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

In hindsight I'd certainly agree but at the time I firmly understood why we let him walk. Ullmark was an often injured goalie who was ok to good most games but ran into issues every year. Not exactly a great choice for a 5x6mil contract. Adams misinterpreted Ullmark's desires and then tried and failed multiple times to replace his level of play with other goalies. Not entirely due to negligence but still a failure overall.

Let's quickly run through a few goaltending seasons

18-19 Hutton 48 GS, Ullmark 34 GS  (Hutton was actually better statistically)

19-20 Ullmark 34 GS, Hutton 30 GS, Johansson 5 GS  (Ullmark was the better goalie by a serious margin however missed time again)

20-21 Ullmark 20 GS, Hutton 12 GS, Tokarski 10 GS, Johansson 6 GS, UPL 4 GS, Houser 4 GS (Ullmark was very good again but failed to even be available for half of a 56 game season) 

21-22 Anderson 31 GS, Tokarski 28 GS, Dell 9 GS, UPL 9 GS, Subban 3 GS, Houser 2 GS (Injuries plagued almost the entire goaltending unit

22-23 UPL 32 GS, Anderson 24 GS, Comrie 19 GS, Levi 7 GS (Turns out UPLs great appearance in the previous season was a mirage aside from a month of high end play) 

23-24 Levi 4 GS, UPL 0 GS, Comrie 0 GS (So far Levi looks average)

 

Ullmark as a starter maxed out at 34 starts for the Sabres which he did twice. Always put up great stats but got hurt with high frequency. In Boston he has thus far started 39 and 48 games which easily tops his previous highs.

 

An organization that's been a contender for decades thought he was worth the money. The organization that is currently on a historic run of failure felt he was not. How it turned out was entirely predictable to anyone with common sense. Or to put it another way:

Joe Sakic says "Do that."

Mike Milbury says "Don't do that".

Whose advise are you taking?

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, sabremike said:

An organization that's been a contender for decades thought he was worth the money. The organization that is currently on a historic run of failure felt he was not. How it turned out was entirely predictable to anyone with common sense. Or to put it another way:

Joe Sakic says "Do that."

Mike Milbury says "Don't do that".

Whose advise are you taking?

Boston isn’t exactly a great example of perfect management. They swing and miss just like anyone else and are likely in trouble next year in regards to Swayman.

 

[sabremike]

20 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Boston isn’t exactly a great example of perfect management. They swing and miss just like anyone else and are likely in trouble next year in regards to Swayman.

 

Obviously their management has been awful which is why they have been one of the top teams in the league for decades.