Granato’s Player Rotation Philosophy

[JohnC]

Just now, GASabresIUFAN said:

Yes most team's depth would be tested, but that isn't an excuse to not try to improve the situation.  Teams move 4th and 5th rd picks for depth NHLers all the time.  Remember the Scandella for a 4th trade?  The Bear trade was for a 5th rd pick I believe.  Those picks have about a 15% chance of playing in the NHL 3-5 from when drafted.  Your not exactly giving up much on an asset.  Also that asset can be recovered at the trade deadline if necessary.  

My understanding is that Lybushkin and Joki should be back soon. (If anyone has any updated information on the timeline for their return I would appreciate it.) If the injuries were more long term like in the Samuelsson return timeframe, I could understand the need to go out and acquire a middling replacement. But I don't see that situation here.

I'm not criticizing you for your impatience for replacements. That actually reflects a good sign that our expectations for this team have increased. If the season was further along I could see more players available to consider on the market. But it's still early in the season. Most teams are trying to figure out which players are in their future plans and which are not. Maybe in a few weeks something will materialize but I don't see it happening right now, especially when the hope is for a couple of the injured players to return soon. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Ultimately there is a time for patience and a time of impatience.  I'm sure KA is going to watch very closely over the next week to see how his patch work D group holds up against good teams.  If it gets crushed than he really needs to do something.  I do agree Bush will be back soonish, but I'm not sure about Joki.  Even when Joki returns, I doubt he'll be at 100%.  Facial injuries are bound to make someone a little more hesitant to block shots for example.  

Ultimately I don't want him to piss away another season in the name of development. 

.... and now back to the topic.

One of the issues facing DG is having a large number of similarly talented players.  Certainly Tnt is establishing himself as the best offensive foward so far, but after him we have Tuch, Skinner, Mitts, Cozens, JJP, Krebs, KO, VO, and Quinn who all have the talent to put up 20+ goals and 50-60+ points.  I can see why he continues to tinker to try to find linemates with chemistry and to find away to both develop and maximize the talents of Krebs and the 2 hot rookie forwards.  I don't envy him the task, especially when even more veteran guys like Mitts, Cozens and VO aren't consistent night in and night out.   

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by GASabresIUFAN

[LGR4GM]

22 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Ultimately there is a time for patience and a time of impatience.  I'm sure KA is going to watch very closely over the next week to see how his patch work D group holds up against good teams.  If it gets crushed than he really needs to do something.  I do agree Bush will be back soonish, but I'm not sure about Joki.  Even when Joki returns, I doubt he'll be at 100%.  Facial injuries are bound to make someone a little more hesitant to block shots for example.  

Ultimately I don't want him to piss away another season in the name of development. 

.... and now back to the topic.

One of the issues facing DG is having a large number of similarly talented players.  Certainly Tnt is establishing himself as the best offensive foward so far, but after him we have Tuch, Skinner, Mitts, Cozens, JJP, Krebs, KO, VO, and Quinn who all have the talent to put up 20+ goals and 50-60+ points.  I can see why he continues to tinker to try to find linemates with chemistry and to find away to both develop and maximize the talents of Krebs and the 2 hot rookie forwards.  I don't envy him the task, especially when even more veteran guys like Mitts, Cozens and VO aren't consistent night in and night out.   

 

The problem at this time of year is finding a trade partner. 

[triumph_communes]

KA isn’t going to find shutdown defenseman this time of year. If anyone needs to make adjustments it’s the coach. He’s chosen to not play his best defensive forwards during these injuries. That’s about as much as we can assess without being in the room

[dudacek]

So one of Quinn/Krebs/Asplund/Peterka/Hinostroza is so significantly less effective than the others that a rotation is going to cost the team points in the standings?

Not buying it.

Also not buying the concept that whoever "played the worst in the last game" is the one who should be be sitting out.

Never mind how that is impossible to quantify (for exhibit A, I give you the reviews of Krebs' game versus Detroit), it's also completely myopic.

I am very happy our team chooses to focus on the big picture.

And this is coming from a fan who never wants to see Asplund in the press box.

[Doohickie]

44 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Even when Joki returns, I doubt he'll be at 100%.  Facial injuries are bound to make someone a little more hesitant to block shots for example.  

I think Joki is actually close.  And it depends on the injury and how it fits with the helmet but I'm pretty sure he'll be wearing a full mask when he first gets back so I expect that he'll pretty quickly be back at 100% effectiveness.

[Brawndo]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

The problem at this time of year is finding a trade partner. 

The other problem is acquisition cost. 
Sure I’ll trade you a second pairing D Man, for Your First or Savoie. 

I believe they were also looking at by Mid December all three injured defenseman should be back and at that point who sits out? 

[DarthEbriate]

33 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

The other problem is acquisition cost. 
Sure I’ll trade you a second pairing D Man, for Your First or Savoie. 

I believe they were also looking at by Mid December all three injured defenseman should be back and at that point who sits out? 

If you acquire a veteran who can be a top 4 level guy, then sit Bryson and Fitz. Carry 8 and rotate those two in as needed for rest days and recovery from blocked shots, etc. They're both showing to be solid NHL depth at this point.

[Brawndo]

7 minutes ago, DarthEbriate said:

If you acquire a veteran who can be a top 4 level guy, then sit Bryson and Fitz. Carry 8 and rotate those two in as needed for rest days and recovery from blocked shots, etc. They're both showing to be solid NHL depth at this point.

What’s the acquisition cost at this point in the season? 
 

 

[Taro T]

11 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

At the seasons end if we ended up two points out of the playoffs, we already have evidence to point back to games where we had defense injuries (out of coaches control) but then also decided to bench Asplund. I know Granato is setting himself up with management to be blameless in that situation, but will the players themselves think of it that way?  Or will he lose the team over the summer because none of his arbitrary were learning nonsense matters as they’re sitting on their couch watching the playoffs.

You honestly think Asplund in the lineup gets the team past Moe-ray-all?  The Sabres problem that game was nobody except Skinner was getting caught dead near all the loose pucks Montembealt was dropping in front of the crease.  Standing in front of the goalie is not Asplund's game.  Really doubt that was THE difference and also expect the players themselves took ownership of that loss.

Heck, Granato blamed the loss on the Sabres not being aggressive enough.  Which sounds about right.  Asplund over Krebs or Hinostroza doesn't appreciably change that IMHO.  YMMV.

2 hours ago, triumph_communes said:

KA isn’t going to find shutdown defenseman this time of year. If anyone needs to make adjustments it’s the coach. He’s chosen to not play his best defensive forwards during these injuries. That’s about as much as we can assess without being in the room

Girgensons & Okposo were benched?  When?

[DarthEbriate]

59 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

What’s the acquisition cost at this point in the season? 

Still high because it's payment for an entire season and no GM is out of it yet and they're not yet ready to go for futures. You could maybe find a cap-tight team to free up some space so they can make additional depth moves later in the season. Everything else will be for the bottom-pair guys (Bear), or you're looking for a big time trade --- but again, very few teams are looking for the F futures we can provide this early in season, and if they're already tanking then having a single mid-level vet defenseman already in their lineup isn't going to win games anyway.

I would kick the tires on a 4th for Arber Xhekaj for the name alone. Edit: 5th/6th. He was undrafted and just made it to the league.

Edited November 2, 2022 by DarthEbriate

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Brawndo said:

The other problem is acquisition cost. 
Sure I’ll trade you a second pairing D Man, for Your First or Savoie. 

I believe they were also looking at by Mid December all three injured defenseman should be back and at that point who sits out? 

Do you have any insights into the timeline for when Lybuskin and Joki will return? 

[Captain Caveman]

21 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

We are playing one proven NHL D right now in Dahlin.  One!  

And 3 others are out injured?  The guys who are playing are borderline NHL / AHL guys, which is kind of what you expect when you're playing your 7th man and 2 call ups.  Anybody more accomplished is going to push out the young guys from needed playing time, they're not going to be able to stash solid NHL defensemen in the AHL.

[matter2003]

Granato clearly has the pulse of this team. Whatever he is doing just let him keep doing it and don't worry about it.

[PerreaultForever]

I kind of think maybe the "rotation" is over. Line up we saw tonight is the line up unless somebody gets hurt or starts to struggle mightily. Vinnie will be the one sitting. 

[Doohickie]

6 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I kind of think maybe the "rotation" is over. Line up we saw tonight is the line up unless somebody gets hurt or starts to struggle mightily. Vinnie will be the one sitting. 

Or if someone needs a maintenance day.

[matter2003]

On 11/2/2022 at 9:05 AM, JohnC said:

My understanding is that Lybushkin and Joki should be back soon. (If anyone has any updated information on the timeline for their return I would appreciate it.) If the injuries were more long term like in the Samuelsson return timeframe, I could understand the need to go out and acquire a middling replacement. But I don't see that situation here.

I'm not criticizing you for your impatience for replacements. That actually reflects a good sign that our expectations for this team have increased. If the season was further along I could see more players available to consider on the market. But it's still early in the season. Most teams are trying to figure out which players are in their future plans and which are not. Maybe in a few weeks something will materialize but I don't see it happening right now, especially when the hope is for a couple of the injured players to return soon. 

From the one site that has dates on expected returns, Lyibushkin is expected back Friday and Joker next Tuesday.

Samuelsson Nov 30th.

 

How accurate that is, I am not sure but I guess we will find out.

Edited November 3, 2022 by matter2003

[JohnC]

11 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I kind of think maybe the "rotation" is over. Line up we saw tonight is the line up unless somebody gets hurt or starts to struggle mightily. Vinnie will be the one sitting. 

I think otherwise. I see the rotation continuing. Vinnie won't be lost in the shuffle but that doesn't mean that he won't be in the shuffle. We shall see. 

[Thorny]

In order to win in the playoffs, you generally (not always) need first to gain valuable playoff experience, even if that’s playoff losses. 

The mark is still making the playoffs, don’t really care about the Darcy like “it’s about winning cups” garbage. @PASabreFan is right. 

“We care about winning once we are in” is absolutely hubris coming from a team that hasn’t made the playoffs, hasn’t had a winning record in over a decade.

Start by making it. The end. 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Thorny

[Thorny]

On 11/1/2022 at 10:30 PM, GASabresIUFAN said:

I'm with you on this.  At some point you have to go for it.  

In the next few years we'll be integrating Levi, Savoie, Kulich, Rosen and Östlund among others.  He can make the same development comment for years to come.  At some point the brain trust will have to say development is great but we need to win now and starting adding guys to make that happen especially on defense.  

Honestly, I think we are almost at that point.  The offense is clicking and coming from all lines.  We have 4 players tied for the team lead with 6 goals apiece and 5 guys tied for the team lead for assists with 6 (yes Dahlin and TNT are in both catagories).  The goaltending is solid so far.  Only the D depth is truly absent to be successful this season. I still feel KA needs to support the team and add another NHL D.

The point definitely comes sooner than people think. Speaking from witnessing the team where I live: The Jets in 2017-2018, making the conference finals, that was their “ahead of schedule year” for that core, that was until it became the pinnacle year for that core. It was all downhill from there. 

[Thorny]

On 11/2/2022 at 5:14 AM, PASabreFan said:

See also security: job.

 

You sound like me 

Aka you’re killing it in this thread 

 

 

😉

[Thorny]

On 11/2/2022 at 10:29 AM, Brawndo said:

The other problem is acquisition cost. 
Sure I’ll trade you a second pairing D Man, for Your First or Savoie. 

I believe they were also looking at by Mid December all three injured defenseman should be back and at that point who sits out? 

Whoever is injured at that point can sit out 

no issue 

They’ve had no issue sitting Asplund, one of our best F, I think we can afford to sit Bryson or Fitz or whoever 

There may not be good value to be had in a trade, not saying he needs to make one. But “oh damn we’ll have one too many 6th d men assuming everyone is miraculously healthy” is a terrible reason for not making a deal 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Thorny

[SwampD]

18 hours ago, Thorny said:

In order to win in the playoffs, you generally (not always) need first to gain valuable playoff experience, even if that’s playoff losses. 

The mark is still making the playoffs, don’t really care about the Darcy like “it’s about winning cups” garbage. @PASabreFan is right. 

“We care about winning once we are in” is absolutely hubris coming from a team that hasn’t made the playoffs, hasn’t had a winning record in over a decade.

Start by making it. The end. 

While the playoffs would be amazing, I just want to see the team finally beat Bylsma's high mark of 81 points for the season.

I threw up a little bit in my mouth when I typed that.

[Thorny]

On 11/1/2022 at 8:02 PM, PASabreFan said:

Darcy said the same thing in 2013.

It's always in the wake of a loss like yesterday that I shudder at those types of comments. If they truly are focused more on building for playoff wins right now than regulation wins, it's scary.