4th Period: Buffalo looking for NHL-ready player + for Sam Reinhart

[MODO Hockey]

Just now, New Scotland (NS) said:

You have been away from SaberSpace for a while, eh?

What, you missed me?

[Derrico]

2 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

You have been away from SaberSpace for a while, eh?

You are on fire today my friend.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

1 minute ago, MODO Hockey said:

What, you missed me?

Yes, if you were gone.

It was a lame joke, since this guy has a habit of starting threads based on trash tweets, or other junk.

[MODO Hockey]

1 minute ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Yes, if you were gone.

It was a lame joke, since this guy has a habit of starting threads based on trash tweets, or other junk.

I know, same with me, was hoping you would get it, but i do realize that we dont talk much so i surely understand if you took it the wrong way.

I've been lurkin in the dark and have read alot and seen what others think aswell. Also did read the talk about the "ALLSTAR guy". 

 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

No worries @MODO Hockey 

[MODO Hockey]

1 minute ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

No worries @MODO Hockey 

[jad1]

15 hours ago, matter2003 said:

We need to get the "core" players that have been here and gone through all the losing out of here.  Regardless of how good they are.  They are jaded and are not going to ever be able to get past that to be successful here.  That's just how it is.  In any organization, the players who have only lost year after year after year just need to be shipped out.  They are lost, their mental ability to get past that is gone.  They are beat down, and only think negatively about their time here and as soon as something goes bad, they think "here we go again".  It kills their drive, their motivation, and we need to get rid of them before they poison the rest of the young team with their mindset.  

In essence, we need to move Eichel, Reinhart and Risto to save Dahlin, Cozens and the other young players that will form the backbone of this team as the "new core".

If this is the case then they might as well trade Mittlestadt, Jokiharju, and Dahlin now, because the Sabres won't be winning any time soon trading all-star caliber players for prospects, no matter how good those players might be.

To be fair to the new prospects, you'll need to give them a couple of seasons to mature into legit top 6 players.

That's at least two more losing seasons for the new core.  I wonder how frustrated those guys will be, losing season after season. 

 

[matter2003]

22 hours ago, jad1 said:

If this is the case then they might as well trade Mittlestadt, Jokiharju, and Dahlin now, because the Sabres won't be winning any time soon trading all-star caliber players for prospects, no matter how good those players might be.

To be fair to the new prospects, you'll need to give them a couple of seasons to mature into legit top 6 players.

That's at least two more losing seasons for the new core.  I wonder how frustrated those guys will be, losing season after season. 

 

 

There is no way this team should have been bottom of the NHL with Eichel and Reinhart.  There are teams completely devoid of superstars and even good players for the most part that outperformed this team on a yearly basis.  You don't understand the concept of getting the "wrong people off the bus" before getting the right ones on.  When you take over a situation like this, you have to ship off the disgruntled players who are not with the program and don't want to be here to allow the other players to be free of negativity.  Negativity kills success faster than anything.  They've had plenty of time to be part of the solution, what has that gotten us?  A bunch of last place finishes.

Edited July 21, 2021 by matter2003

[jad1]

13 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

 

There is no way this team should have been bottom of the NHL with Eichel and Reinhart.  There are teams completely devoid of superstars and even good players for the most part that outperformed this team on a yearly basis.  You don't understand the concept of getting the "wrong people off the bus" before getting the right ones on.  When you take over a situation like this, you have to ship off the disgruntled players who are not with the program and don't want to be here to allow the other players to be free of negativity.  Negativity kills success faster than anything.  They've had plenty of time to be part of the solution, what has that gotten us?  A bunch of last place finishes.

Negativity?  Funny, I thought terrible coaching killed success.  I thought terrible trades killed success.  I thought horrible free agent signings killed success.  I thought that crappy player development killed success. I thought bad goaltending killed success.

I never considered that the point-a- game, border-line MVP center was the reason for killing success!  I guess I was judging him by his performance on the ice instead by his performance in interviews. 🤔

So the only two productive players that were able rise above the total sh##show this franchise has been the last three seasons WERE the problem!  I admit I totally missed that.

Maybe you're right.  Maybe what this franchise needs is a couple of 20 year old prospects with a can-do attitude and a bunch of Cody Eakins!  

I just remember a couple of seasons ago when the team dressed 7 defensemen on a nightly basis, playing in front of blind goalie, with a 3rd line winger playing 2nd line center, under a coach who spent the previous 6 seasons in the EPL, while Jack was setting team records.  Who knew that he was REALLY the reason the team was losing.  I mean, c'mon Jack, why do you keep starting that blind goalie!

Seriously though, we've heard this before.  Kane was a negative influence.  O'Reilly was a negative influence.  Whatever the reason for trading those guys, it did nothing to fix the locker room.  Addition by subtraction in those cases did fix the culture and it didn't fix the result on the ice.  And neither of those things will be fixed when Eichel and Reinhart are traded.

Eichel and Reinhart are not the problem with this team, no matter how much we arm-chair psychologists criticize them for pouting and moping while scoring a combined 140 points in a season.

The problem is that this team has been completely mismanaged.  Instead of bringing competent, experienced veteren managers and coaches, Pegula has brought in a slew of inexperienced sociopaths and hucksters who couldn't figure out a way to build a winning organization around productive players like Eichel and Reinhart.

I apologize for the screed.  I don't like arguing with fellow Sabre fans.  And I hope I'm wrong and you're right, because more than anything I want our team to be relevant again.

It just feels like we've been down this road before ('these current guys are no good, bring in new guys') and it hasn't worked.  How can the organization fix the problem if they don't understand what the problem even is?  We've seen this all before, and it makes me cynical and I hate being cynical about my favorite team.

[Radar]

26 minutes ago, jad1 said:

Negativity?  Funny, I thought terrible coaching killed success.  I thought terrible trades killed success.  I thought horrible free agent signings killed success.  I thought that crappy player development killed success. I thought bad goaltending killed success.

I never considered that the point-a- game, border-line MVP center was the reason for killing success!  I guess I was judging him by his performance on the ice instead by his performance in interviews. 🤔

So the only two productive players that were able rise above the total sh##show this franchise has been the last three seasons WERE the problem!  I admit I totally missed that.

Maybe you're right.  Maybe what this franchise needs is a couple of 20 year old prospects with a can-do attitude and a bunch of Cody Eakins!  

I just remember a couple of seasons ago when the team dressed 7 defensemen on a nightly basis, playing in front of blind goalie, with a 3rd line winger playing 2nd line center, under a coach who spent the previous 6 seasons in the EPL, while Jack was setting team records.  Who knew that he was REALLY the reason the team was losing.  I mean, c'mon Jack, why do you keep starting that blind goalie!

Seriously though, we've heard this before.  Kane was a negative influence.  O'Reilly was a negative influence.  Whatever the reason for trading those guys, it did nothing to fix the locker room.  Addition by subtraction in those cases did fix the culture and it didn't fix the result on the ice.  And neither of those things will be fixed when Eichel and Reinhart are traded.

Eichel and Reinhart are not the problem with this team, no matter how much we arm-chair psychologists criticize them for pouting and moping while scoring a combined 140 points in a season.

The problem is that this team has been completely mismanaged.  Instead of bringing competent, experienced veteren managers and coaches, Pegula has brought in a slew of inexperienced sociopaths and hucksters who couldn't figure out a way to build a winning organization around productive players like Eichel and Reinhart.

I apologize for the screed.  I don't like arguing with fellow Sabre fans.  And I hope I'm wrong and you're right, because more than anything I want our team to be relevant again.

It just feels like we've been down this road before ('these current guys are no good, bring in new guys') and it hasn't worked.  How can the organization fix the problem if they don't understand what the problem even is?  We've seen this all before, and it makes me cynical and I hate being cynical about my favorite team.

I have to agree. We're trying to put the blame on a few players who least deserve it. This team has been poorly managed. Ownership has failed to provide that management. I don't think we need to even debate that. We may think someone's attitude is bad or they didn't say the right things or what we wanted to hear but the problem is players and it's not Eichel or Rinehart and it wasn't ROR. It's front offices chosen by the owners who couldn't put together a team around those players we're now ready to run out of town. Give me a break.

 

 

 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, matter2003 said:

 

There is no way this team should have been bottom of the NHL with Eichel and Reinhart.  There are teams completely devoid of superstars and even good players for the most part that outperformed this team on a yearly basis.  You don't understand the concept of getting the "wrong people off the bus" before getting the right ones on.  When you take over a situation like this, you have to ship off the disgruntled players who are not with the program and don't want to be here to allow the other players to be free of negativity.  Negativity kills success faster than anything.  They've had plenty of time to be part of the solution, what has that gotten us?  A bunch of last place finishes.

The Sabres have no talent. It isn't negativity, or want to be here, or toughness, or any of the other bull ***** we tell eachother. It is simply that the Sabres have not in the last decade assembled a team with enough talent. 

[dudacek]

I don’t think trading Eichel, Ristolainen and Reinhart is about blaming them for what ails the Sabres.

Jack is a top-10 NHL talent, Sam is a 1st-liner and Risto is a warrior, and each will help whomever is lucky enough to acquire them.

Trading them is about bringing optimism and belief back to the dressing room. No one blames the three for losing it after what they’ve been through, but letting them move on might be the most expedient way of allowing a rebirth to happen.

I can’t say whether the relationships are salvageable or not, from this distance they do not appear to be. But in order for the move to be successful, you have to be bringing the right assets in to replace them.

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by dudacek

[Thorny]

53 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I don’t think trading Eichel, Ristolainen and Reinhart is about blaming them for what ails the Sabres.

Jack is a top-10 NHL talent, Sam is a 1st-liner and Risto is a warrior, and each will help whomever is lucky enough to acquire them.

Trading them is about bringing optimism and belief back to the dressing room. No one blames the three for losing it after what they’ve been through, but letting them move on might be the most expedient way of allowing a rebirth to happen.

I can’t say whether the relationships are salvageable or not, from this distance they do not appear to be. But in order for the move to be successful, you have to be bringing the right assets in to replace them.

 

So we are trading our two best players Jack Eichel and Sam Reinhart, and Rasmus Ristolainen, to bring optimism to the dressing room. And we thinking the optimism gained is enough to offset the considerable talent loss, which we'll need to recoup. 

Bold, it must be said. 

[LGR4GM]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

So we are trading our two best players Jack Eichel and Sam Reinhart, and Rasmus Ristolainen, to bring optimism to the dressing room. And we thinking the optimism gained is enough to offset the considerable talent loss, which we'll need to recoup. 

Bold, it must be said. 

[Thorny]

7 minutes ago, Thorny said:

So we are trading our two best players Jack Eichel and Sam Reinhart, and Rasmus Ristolainen, to bring optimism to the dressing room. And we thinking the optimism gained is enough to offset the considerable talent loss, which we'll need to recoup. 

Bold, it must be said. 

I should say this is poorly worded as you said it's not just about the optimism but also that the adds are the right ones. 

I guess what worries me is that KA from his dialogue thus far has me thinking the most likely scenario is he's fast-tracking the youth on this team to negativity through his apparent* non-desire to bring in win-now players. We've mostly heard it's just futures. I'm not convinced that "blinding light" from the youth remains quite so blinding over an 82 game season as compared to a short stretch once the playoffs are already out of reach against teams that likely weren't giving it their best. 

*It's an argument based on my perception for what kind of moves we are about to see as obviously we just don't know yet what the team is going to look like. 

[The Jokeman]

On 7/19/2021 at 6:56 PM, PromoTheRobot said:

I'll be really disappointed of Sam goes. I really thought they'd keep him around at least till trade deadline. He showed leadership in the last of half of the season. He'd be a great guy to have on a young team.

Sam has said he doesn't want to be part of another rebuild so if Sam's going it likely means Eichel is too. *Smh* I hate this management right now if all this happens.

[Radar]

1 minute ago, The Jokeman said:

Sam has said he doesn't want to be part of another rebuild so if Sam's going it likely means Eichel is too. *Smh* I hate this management right now if all this happens.

This should never have come to this. Ownership has up to now so mismanaged this franchise that we find ourselves here.

[Thorny]

The optimism you think KA is after (@dudacek) may indeed be enough to offset the talent gap brought on through the trade, but it's a volatile situation because if the talent falls short of necessary in those trades, it'll have a direct affect on the optimism portion of the equation as well. I don't think he can rely on that optimism as an avenue to success if he doesn't give them a chance to win-now. 

Does anyone really think last year's finishing team, minus it's best player in Reinhart, plus expected (?) growth from the youth is going to be enough to improve this team from what was a .375 points percentage under Granato to a level where there's some sort of positive atmosphere being fostered? We shouldn't forget for guys like Cozens and potentially Quinn, they are used to winning pre NHL, and guys like Dahlin who we are counting on to be our..checks notes...best player(!) it'd just be more of the same? 

I think most that think Jack has a bad attitude think he was molded by his experiences here, now at a point of no return, fewer think he was born this way. It's crucial we mold a positive experience for the players here and that means winning hockey games.

We need win now players. 

4 minutes ago, Let's Go B-Lo said:

Last summer when he brought in Taylor Hall on a 1 year deal, brought in Eric Staal, and brought in Cody Eakin, those weren't "win-now" sort of moves?  Granted they were all stupid, but they certainly weren't long term focused.

No I think he went for it last year. 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Thorny

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

I don’t think trading Eichel, Ristolainen and Reinhart is about blaming them for what ails the Sabres.

Jack is a top-10 NHL talent, Sam is a 1st-liner and Risto is a warrior, and each will help whomever is lucky enough to acquire them.

Trading them is about bringing optimism and belief back to the dressing room. No one blames the three for losing it after what they’ve been through, but letting them move on might be the most expedient way of allowing a rebirth to happen.

I can’t say whether the relationships are salvageable or not, from this distance they do not appear to be. But in order for the move to be successful, you have to be bringing the right assets in to replace them.

 

Two things.

1.  Which moves provide more optimism in the room: keeping Eichel & Reinhart, adding Danault, bringing back McCabe & Ullmark & bringing in another goalie that might beat Linusbout for the starter & either bringing back Ristolainen or trading him out for a young D & a pick to give cap room if they need it? 

Or

Trading away all of the "Big 3" for high draft picks and quality guys that are Cozens age leaving no shelter for Mittelstadt, Cozens, & the rest of the youth?

 

And 2.  Why should we BELIEVE the right return will come back for giving away the best player in all 3 trades?  (Hoping is great.  But we should have more than just hope.  How do we (and more importantly, how do the kids) actually honestly believe?

[Radar]

2 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Two things.

1.  Which moves provide more optimism in the room: keeping Eichel & Reinhart, adding Danault, bringing back McCabe & Ullmark & bringing in another goalie that might beat Linusbout for the starter & either bringing back Ristolainen or trading him out for a young D & a pick to give cap room if they need it? 

Or

Trading away all of the "Big 3" for high draft picks and quality guys that are Cozens age leaving no shelter for Mittelstadt, Cozens, & the rest of the youth?

 

And 2.  Why should we BELIEVE the right return will come back for giving away the best player in all 3 trades?  (Hoping is great.  But we should have more than just hope.  How do we (and more importantly, how do the kids) actually honestly believe?

I'm for #1

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

I should say this is poorly worded as you said it's not just about the optimism but also that the adds are the right ones. 

I guess what worries me is that KA from his dialogue thus far has me thinking the most likely scenario is he's fast-tracking the youth on this team to negativity through his apparent* non-desire to bring in win-now players. We've mostly heard it's just futures. I'm not convinced that "blinding light" from the youth remains quite so blinding over an 82 game season as compared to a short stretch once the playoffs are already out of reach against teams that likely weren't giving it their best. 

*It's an argument based on my perception for what kind of moves we are about to see as obviously we just don't know yet what the team is going to look like. 

I think this is the most likely result.

Best case scenario (and I think it’s possible) is Ottawa last year, where they were fun, sometimes competitive, and some of the kids showed they might be something.

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

The optimism you think KA is after (@dudacek) may indeed be enough to offset the talent gap brought on through the trade, but it's a volatile situation because if the talent falls short of necessary in those trades, it'll have a direct affect on the optimism portion of the equation as well. I don't think he can rely on that optimism as an avenue to success if he doesn't give them a chance to win-now. 

Does anyone really think last year's finishing team, minus it's best player in Reinhart, plus expected (?) growth from the youth is going to be enough to improve this team from what was a .375 points percentage under Granato to a level where there's some sort of positive atmosphere being fostered? We shouldn't forget for guys like Cozens and potentially Quinn, they are used to winning pre NHL, and guys like Dahlin who we are counting on to be our..checks notes...best player(!) it'd just be more of the same? 

I think most that think Jack has a bad attitude think he was molded by his experiences here, now at a point of no return, fewer think he was born this way. It's crucial we mold a positive experience for the players here and that means winning hockey games.

We need win now players. 

No I think he went for it last year. 

I think you may be among those who have scoffed when I said this earlier (and I don’t blame you) but there is a path forward here through cap space. Can a few more Alex Killorns and a few less Evander Kane’s under Don Granato work where Brian Gionta and Josh Gorges under Dan Bylsma failed? We’ve got no reason to believe the Sabres can get the right supports, or even that they will try, but it’s really the only path if they dump the big three for futures. It certainly won’t work without a goalie.

50 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Two things.

1.  Which moves provide more optimism in the room: keeping Eichel & Reinhart, adding Danault, bringing back McCabe & Ullmark & bringing in another goalie that might beat Linusbout for the starter & either bringing back Ristolainen or trading him out for a young D & a pick to give cap room if they need it? 

Or

Trading away all of the "Big 3" for high draft picks and quality guys that are Cozens age leaving no shelter for Mittelstadt, Cozens, & the rest of the youth?

 

And 2.  Why should we BELIEVE the right return will come back for giving away the best player in all 3 trades?  (Hoping is great.  But we should have more than just hope.  How do we (and more importantly, how do the kids) actually honestly believe?

See above.

I didn’t say it was the right path, only that it’s the path they’ve chosen.

In terms of belief, Im not in @Weave territory yet, but hope is all I got right now.

Hope that this summer Adams gives me some reason to believe.

[Weave]

23 minutes ago, dudacek said:

I think this is the most likely result.

Best case scenario (and I think it’s possible) is Ottawa last year, where they were fun, sometimes competitive, and some of the kids showed they might be something.

I think you may be among those who have scoffed when I said this earlier (and I don’t blame you) but there is a path forward here through cap space. Can a few more Alex Killorns and a few less Evander Kane’s under Don Granato work where Brian Gionta and Josh Gorges under Dan Bylsma failed? We’ve got no reason to believe the Sabres can get the right supports, or even that they will try, but it’s really the only path if they dump the big three for futures. It certainly won’t work without a goalie.

See above.

I didn’t say it was the right path, only that it’s the path they’ve chosen.

In terms of belief, Im not in @Weave territory yet, but hope is all I got right now.

Hope that this summer Adams gives me some reason to believe.

Not sure what territory I’m in right now, lol.  What is the current read on me?

[Doohickie]

On 7/20/2021 at 2:28 PM, MODO Hockey said:

What, you missed me?

I did.

[matter2003]

20 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

The Sabres have no talent. It isn't negativity, or want to be here, or toughness, or any of the other bull ***** we tell eachother. It is simply that the Sabres have not in the last decade assembled a team with enough talent. 

I don't buy that.  So Vegas took a bunch of players that nobody wanted and suddenly all those players became talented?  There is far more mental aspect to all of sports than people want to admit.  Talent always seems to perform best when the environment allows it.

[Marvin]

35 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

I don't buy that.  So Vegas took a bunch of players that nobody wanted and suddenly all those players became talented?  There is far more mental aspect to all of sports than people want to admit.  Talent always seems to perform best when the environment allows it.

I do.  Starting with 2013-4, we have iced a team where at least 1 line which got routinely caved in and at least 1 defencive pairing which could not cover a song at karaoke let alone opposing players.  The environment did not help, but the lack of talent was apparent -- XGMTM signed barely NHL-quality defencemen; XGMJB could not find NHL-quality forwards.

This year, if we were not losing Eichel and Reinhart, we would be in the first year since 2012-3 where we would have iced 4 clear NHL-quality lines and 3 clear NHL-quality defence pairs -- albeit not necessarily high end for either.  And BOOM -- there it goes