Rumor: Sabres looking for help to run team

[Scottysabres]

Just now, SDS said:

See the New York Islanders 1986 to 2000.

I remember, unfortunately. I'm at a loss SDS. But, I like to think there is always brighter days ahead. The optimist in me just doesn't see it, at least not yet anyways. The sun will rise tomorrow, entertaining hockey games will be played tonight, so the hockey fanatic inside of me since my first retained childhood memories will enjoy the sport as always. Just disappointed the hometown team isn't a share of the recent fondness. Time heals all things as they say, and time is most likely needed in the case of the Sabres.

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, SDS said:

First, let me say nothing compares to the viciousness of the Buffalo fanbase after they turn on someone. 

Am I the only one that can look at many decisions of the past and just say, "that didn't work out" (like 1000s or other coaches and GM hires prior) and not go into hyperdrive?

I didn't like Dan Bylsma as coach. But was he THAT unreasonable of a choice? Tim Murray? Phil Housley? 

Objectively, they all failed spectacularly in their ultimate goal. Can it not be more that it didn't work out instead of the thick layer of gross incompetence that gets thrown around when everyone gets spun up?

Only when looking at one individual piece at a time. But a picture has been painted. Even if we discount the fact that some individual seasons were historically bad, the true historical significance of our ineptitude lies in its duration.

The gross incompetence stems from the fact it “didn’t go their way” 10 times in a row in a league where half the teams make the playoffs 

If there was some sort of figure that was present for and somehow linked that entire period of time...well if that person exists I wouldn’t give them the benefit of the doubt. It takes effort to break that kind of mathematical ground. 

Edited March 5, 2021 by Thorny

[Georgia Blizzard]

I think the difference between a rebuild strategy and a tank strategy, is that, in the former, the organization (top to bottom) maintains a passion to win.  In the tank strategy, losing became not only acceptable, but, encouraged by all except the coach and team.  In full disclosure, I was 100% on board and the fan that cheered failure.  That culture that we were all complicit in creating is destroying this franchise

[mjd1001]

I had no problem with 'the tank', I was all for it and I would be again. The reason it didn't work well was a series of factors:

-You got Eichel, not McDavid. Eichel is very good, but hes not generational..he's not even semi-generational. Just a very good all star.

-Reinhart is who you got with our other '2nd pick'.  Again, hes good, but probably less than you would hope from a 2nd overall pick.

-This is the big one...you missed on SO MANY other draft picks during the tank. As a reminder to everyone (including myself) there is a list of all the players the Sabres drafted in the first 3 rounds since Eichel/Reinhgart: Lemieux, Cornel, Karabacek, Johanson, Martin, Guhle, Nylander, Asplund, Pu, Fitzgerald, Mittlestadt, Davidson, Lukkonen, Laaksonen, Dahlin, Samuelson, Cozens, Johnson, Portillo.  You need to hit on MORE of those, especially the ones that are in their mid 20's by now.

-Draft part 2:  How did you do on the later round picks from those drafts?  Here is a list of ALL the  players who even played any games for the Sabres drafted in rounds 4-7 of all of those drafts (22 players drafted in late rounds, not even counting last year):   Olofsson,  Borgen. 2 guys. 

-Of course in terms of trades...I won't go over all of them but  the Sabres have, for the most part, made pretty bad trades and free agent signings.

So yeah, their current coaching staff doesn't look that good, but the Tank didn't fail because it was a bad idea in concept..it failed because of a little bad luck and a LOT of bad, terrible, awful decisions on talent (on ice)

[Marvin]

8 minutes ago, Georgia Blizzard said:

I think the difference between a rebuild strategy and a tank strategy, is that, in the former, the organization (top to bottom) maintains a passion to win.  In the tank strategy, losing became not only acceptable, but, encouraged by all except the coach and team.  In full disclosure, I was 100% on board and the fan that cheered failure.  That culture that we were all complicit in creating is destroying this franchise

Fact check: on 26 March 2015, I went to the "tank commander" game where Arizona beat Buffalo 4-3 in OT.  I cheered when (looking it up) Brian Gionta scored at 16:23 of the third people along with most of the fans.  I saw that some of us got crap thrown at us for cheering.  We were proudly cheered for the team to win and **** up the tank.  We were not complicit.  I, for one, always said that the position we are in now was always a possibility because it left far too little room for error.  And then this franchise went out of its way to bust past those limits.

[Sabre fan]

I think it is safe to say that tanking does in fact work as proven by Pittsburg and Toronto...the problem is they immediately got better again and we keep getting worse. For sure it hurt not getting McDavid but then Edmonton sucks with him so hard to know what would have happened had we won that lottery to get McDavid. Either way this team seriously needs a President before it makes ANY moves (including firing Ralphie). Let a new President make ALL the decisions as Toronto did. Rutherford and BB would be a great start!

[Kruppstahl]

3 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I had no problem with 'the tank', I was all for it and I would be again. The reason it didn't work well was a series of factors:

-You got Eichel, not McDavid. Eichel is very good, but hes not generational..he's not even semi-generational. Just a very good all star.

-Reinhart is who you got with our other '2nd pick'.  Again, hes good, but probably less than you would hope from a 2nd overall pick.

-This is the big one...you missed on SO MANY other draft picks during the tank. As a reminder to everyone (including myself) there is a list of all the players the Sabres drafted in the first 3 rounds since Eichel/Reinhgart: Lemieux, Cornel, Karabacek, Johanson, Martin, Guhle, Nylander, Asplund, Pu, Fitzgerald, Mittlestadt, Davidson, Lukkonen, Laaksonen, Dahlin, Samuelson, Cozens, Johnson, Portillo.  You need to hit on MORE of those, especially the ones that are in their mid 20's by now.

-Draft part 2:  How did you do on the later round picks from those drafts?  Here is a list of ALL the  players who even played any games for the Sabres drafted in rounds 4-7 of all of those drafts (22 players drafted in late rounds, not even counting last year):   Olofsson,  Borgen. 2 guys. 

-Of course in terms of trades...I won't go over all of them but  the Sabres have, for the most part, made pretty bad trades and free agent signings.

So yeah, their current coaching staff doesn't look that good, but the Tank didn't fail because it was a bad idea in concept..it failed because of a little bad luck and a LOT of bad, terrible, awful decisions on talent (on ice)

I agree with most of your points.

Don't forget, Reinhart should be Draisaitl!  That was a miss, as good as Reinhart is.

Jack is a mile away from McDavid.

Dahlin is way behind schedule; he is supposed to be looking like a superstar out there and he is a long way away from that.

We have missed on picks all over the place for many years.

Risto might be suggested as one of the more successful picks by some, and he's TERRIBLE.

GMTM screwed much of it up and set the rebuild back a period of years.

We had a Conn Smythe winner in the lineup and gave him away for, pretty much, nothing.

We've gone through a string of ***** coaches.

None of it has gone to plan.

 

 

 

 

[bunomatic]

Rehashing all the same arguments. Every single season. And you know what ? Nobody will sway anyone to change their stance. Agree to disagree and move on. It is what it is. We suck. 

[Radar]

6 minutes ago, Sabre fan said:

I think it is safe to say that tanking does in fact work as proven by Pittsburg and Toronto...the problem is they immediately got better again and we keep getting worse. For sure it hurt not getting McDavid but then Edmonton sucks with him so hard to know what would have happened had we won that lottery to get McDavid. Either way this team seriously needs a President before it makes ANY moves (including firing Ralphie). Let a new President make ALL the decisions as Toronto did. Rutherford and BB would be a great start!

Probably not going to happen as I think the Pegulas still think they know how to run the franchise. Most qualified candidates for being POHO won't want to just be a voice for owners. Hope I'm wrong but as times have gone by my doubts about our owners has increased and I think they still want to run things .

[Weave]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Glad you can separate the 2 things when it suits you

 

Separate what two things?  Tanks and rebuilds?  Meh.  Bourbon and whisky.  Travertine and stone tile.

Tank is a subset of rebuilds.  All tanks are rebuilds.  All rebuilds are not tanks.

Toronto didn't post tank rebuild better than us.  Toronto didn't tank.  They just rebuilt.  They kept a reasonable group behind.  We didn't. We did something nearly unprecedented. 

[mjd1001]

Just now, bunomatic said:

Rehashing all the same arguments. Every single season. And you know what ? Nobody will sway anyone to change their stance. Agree to disagree and move on. It is what it is. We suck. 

Well, that is what this message board is for...to give opinions.  As far as the same arguments? Well, there isn't much else to talk about with this team other than the same things over and over.

[Marvin]

1 minute ago, Radar said:

Probably not going to happen as I think the Pegulas still think they know how to run the franchise. Most qualified candidates for being POHO won't want to just be a voice for owners. Hope I'm wrong but as times have gone by my doubts about our owners has increased and I think they still want to run things .

I am hoping that someone they listen to will tell them this.

[bunomatic]

Just now, mjd1001 said:

Well, that is what this message board is for...to give opinions.  As far as the same arguments? Well, there isn't much else to talk about with this team other than the same things over and over.

Yeah you’re right. Problem is it creeps into every thread at some point. 

[Radar]

1 minute ago, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

I am hoping that someone they listen to will tell them this.

Question. Who would that be.

[Marvin]

1 minute ago, Radar said:

Question. Who would that be.

I hope the article in the Athletic maybe got someone they trust to call them and say, "that quote there?  That's me.  Here are some people you can ask for help."

[Weave]

15 minutes ago, Sabre fan said:

I think it is safe to say that tanking does in fact work as proven by Pittsburg and Toronto...the problem is they immediately got better again and we keep getting worse. For sure it hurt not getting McDavid but then Edmonton sucks with him so hard to know what would have happened had we won that lottery to get McDavid. Either way this team seriously needs a President before it makes ANY moves (including firing Ralphie). Let a new President make ALL the decisions as Toronto did. Rutherford and BB would be a great start!

Pittsburgh Mario?  Or Pittsburgh Crosby?

It took 5 seasons after Mario was drafted for P-burgh to make the playoffs in a league where more than half got in.  They didn't sniff playoffs until they aqcuired Paul Coffey and drafted Mark Recchi, two hall of famers.  And didn't win until they drafted Jagr 6 seasons after.  That's a hell of an act to try and follow.

And they never tanked for Crosby.  They were slated to draft at 5 and won the lottery.

Toronto didn't tank.  Period.

[msw2112]

I believe the lasting impact of the tank is overstated on this board.  It was what: 5, maybe 6 years ago?  Since that time, almost the entire roster has been overhauled.  The team has had multiple GMs and multiple coaches in that time period.  The real problems are bad drafting (too many examples to name), bad trades (ROR stands out the most), bad player development (mishandling of Middlestadt, for example), bad contract management (Okposo and Skinner stand out the most) and bad coaching (RK seems to be the worst - hard to imagine, as I thought Phil was pretty brutal).  Even if we hadn't tanked, but did all of these same things, we would the result be any different?

[Radar]

3 minutes ago, msw2112 said:

I believe the lasting impact of the tank is overstated on this board.  It was what: 5, maybe 6 years ago?  Since that time, almost the entire roster has been overhauled.  The team has had multiple GMs and multiple coaches in that time period.  The real problems are bad drafting (too many examples to name), bad trades (ROR stands out the most), bad player development (mishandling of Middlestadt, for example), bad contract management (Okposo and Skinner stand out the most) and bad coaching (RK seems to be the worst - hard to imagine, as I thought Phil was pretty brutal).  Even if we hadn't tanked, but did all of these same things, we would the result be any different?

I think you nailed it. The problem now is not related to the tank whether you were pro tank or anti tank. It's what's transpired post tank that's our problem. Poor management of assets and poor hiring. This organization needs pretty much an overhaul and that's top down not bottom up.

[Weave]

1 hour ago, msw2112 said:

I believe the lasting impact of the tank is overstated on this board.  It was what: 5, maybe 6 years ago?  Since that time, almost the entire roster has been overhauled.  The team has had multiple GMs and multiple coaches in that time period.  The real problems are bad drafting (too many examples to name), bad trades (ROR stands out the most), bad player development (mishandling of Middlestadt, for example), bad contract management (Okposo and Skinner stand out the most) and bad coaching (RK seems to be the worst - hard to imagine, as I thought Phil was pretty brutal).  Even if we hadn't tanked, but did all of these same things, we would the result be any different?

We'll never know, but by tanking and stripping the team of everything of value they created a situation where all of the draft, trade, and coaching decisions became must hit situations.  It was a plan with no room for error.  None.  We'll never know if not tanking would ahve worked out differently, but we do know it would have left us with more room for error because a foundation would still be present.

[DeleteThisAccount]

On 3/4/2021 at 4:45 PM, Marvin, Sabres Fan said:

Thank you very much, John.

I was wondering how you felt about what can fix this season, if anything.  I can't believe the talent they have performs so badly so routinely.

In fear of miracles, I don't know what can save this season.

Best hope is GMKA can proceed with trading over-priced assets for younger, under-priced assets, and go from there.

That said, no one I speak to envisions a short turnaround as Adams suggested might happen.

jw

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by john wawrow

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, john wawrow said:

In fear of miracles, I don't know what can save this season.

Best hope is GMKA can proceed with trading over-priced assets for younger, under-priced assets, and go from there.

That said, no one I speak to envisions a short turnaround as Adams suggested might happen.

jw

 

Thanks for all the responses, John.

You mentioned it’s not out of the range of possibility Eichel gets dealt..would you say that’s on the outskirts of that range? Or is it a very realistic possibility of moving Jack, and therefore something that’s factoring into these perceptions you are encountering suggesting it will not be a quick turnaround? 

[DeleteThisAccount]

On 3/6/2021 at 5:23 AM, Thorny said:

Thanks for all the responses, John.

You mentioned it’s not out of the range of possibility Eichel gets dealt..would you say that’s on the outskirts of that range? Or is it a very realistic possibility of moving Jack, and therefore something that’s factoring into these perceptions you are encountering suggesting it will not be a quick turnaround? 

I think it's a very distinct possibility it happens, more likely in the offseason, when moves like this are easier to make. And i do believe it's been on the table since October or so but the Sabres wanted to have one last crack at seeing if they can win.

jw

[DeleteThisAccount]

On 3/4/2021 at 3:02 PM, WildCard said:

So is this a rumor with some legs or none? Is there any chance we get a President of Hockey Ops? @john wawrow?

 

Again, this is topic makes little sense. They don't need another layer of management to prove how inept they can be. The Bills are doing pretty OK without a so-called president.

What the Sabres need is someone to have a vision and authority over all hockey decisions to see the vision through. That's never been the case under the Pegula's ownership. Ever.

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, john wawrow said:

I think it's a very distinct possibility it happens, more likely in the offseason, when moves like this are easier to make. And i do believe it's been on the table since October or so but the Sabres wanted to have one last crack at seeing if they can win.

jw

This is an eye-opener, wow. 

You have this thread on fire John, kudos and thank again 

Edited March 7, 2021 by Thorny

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

This is an eye-opener, wow. 

Sure fits with all the short-term contracts and the direction Adams took this summer.