Rumor: Sabres looking for help to run team

[SwampD]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

It was. It occurred after the Sabres made a heroic run to 8th place in 2013 even though they were bad after almost a decade of mediocre drafting. They decided that the current talent they had wasn't good enough (it wasn't) and they needed to reset to they sold off things and GMTM in 2014 and finished last for Reinhart. With the McDavid/Eichel draft coming the following year and long Darcy gone, TMGM continued the tank for the 2nd year to ensure one of the two. The problem was always and continues to be that after they tanked, they never fixed their drafting and under GMTM they ignored the defense, under GMJB they ignored the offense, and under all of them refused to hire an actual good coach with Dan Freaking Bylsma as probably the best of the bunch. The tank worked, the rebuild failed, multiple times due to chronic mismanagement of professional and draft assets. 

I know someone who desperately wants their position to be correct.

[GASabresIUFAN]

1 minute ago, LGR4GM said:

It was. It occurred after the Sabres made a heroic run to 8th place in 2013 even though they were bad after almost a decade of mediocre drafting. They decided that the current talent they had wasn't good enough (it wasn't) and they needed to reset to they sold off things and GMTM in 2014 and finished last for Reinhart. With the McDavid/Eichel draft coming the following year and long Darcy gone, TMGM continued the tank for the 2nd year to ensure one of the two. The problem was always and continues to be that after they tanked, they never fixed their drafting and under GMTM they ignored the defense, under GMJB they ignored the offense, and under all of them refused to hire an actual good coach with Dan Freaking Bylsma as probably the best of the bunch. The tank worked, the rebuild failed, multiple times due to chronic mismanagement of professional and draft assets. 

I would agree for the most part.  The decision to rebuild was the right one, the execution of the rebuild is where things went horribly wrong.

 

[WildCard]

So is this a rumor with some legs or none? Is there any chance we get a President of Hockey Ops? @john wawrow?

[PASabreFan]

7 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

It was. It occurred after the Sabres made a heroic run to 8th place in 2013 even though they were bad after almost a decade of mediocre drafting. They decided that the current talent they had wasn't good enough (it wasn't) and they needed to reset to they sold off things under DR before he was fired and GMTM in 2014 finished last for Reinhart. With the McDavid/Eichel draft coming the following year, TMGM continued the tank for the 2nd year to ensure one of the two. The problem was always and continues to be that after they tanked, they never fixed their drafting and under GMTM they ignored the defense, under GMJB they ignored the offense, and under all of them refused to hire an actual good coach with Dan Freaking Bylsma as probably the best of the bunch. The tank worked, the rebuild failed, multiple times due to chronic mismanagement of professional and draft assets. 

That seems like splitting hairs. Tanking is the original sin. There's no failed rebuild without it. Dad sold all of our worldly possessions to invest in Circuit City. I mean, he did a great job with the sale! He was all over Craigslist and eBay.

[WildCard]

1 minute ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I would agree for the most part.  The decision to rebuild was the right one, the execution of the rebuild is where things went horribly wrong.

That will always be the case

[LGR4GM]

Just now, SwampD said:

I know someone who desperately wants their position to be correct.

Yup it is me, I constantly bring up the tank and what happened and tell all of you it was the only way. I tell all of you who were against it that you are stupid and the tank was the best. 

We didn't have to tank, we could have fixed the drafting, sold the right assets, and just been kinda bad but the problem was by 2013, the damage was already done. 

Between 2006 and 2013, the Sabres have roughly 16 players that were drafted and actually mattered to an NHL team for a decent period of time. Out of those, 6 were traded before establishing themselves as NHL players. Another 3 were traded in or around the tank. Out of those 16 players none are stars. Tyler Ennis is the only one who I would consider a stable top 6 player for any length of time although Foligno showed flashes. Risto, Myers, and to a lesser degree McNabb and McCabe are the only 4 defenders of note that actually played on the team and contributed. 

In reality we are talking about 1 decent forward, and 3 defenders over 8 years of drafting that were valuable or would become valuable. 

The Sabres problem is and continues to be their piss poor drafting which directly led to tanking in order to ensure we got the high end talent. 

2 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

I would agree for the most part.  The decision to rebuild was the right one, the execution of the rebuild is where things went horribly wrong.

 

Which has been my point. The tank fundamentally wasn't wrong, everything that occurred starting after though has been dumb. 

1 minute ago, PASabreFan said:

That seems like splitting hairs. Tanking is the original sin. There's no failed rebuild without it. Dad sold all of our worldly possessions to invest in Circuit City. I mean, he did a great job with the sale! He was all over Craigslist and eBay.

They were already a failed team and you are 100% wrong on the original sin. 100%. The original sin was the piss poor drafting of the Buffalo Sabres for an extended period of time and that honestly continues to this day. 

[SwampD]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Yup it is me, I constantly bring up the tank and what happened and tell all of you it was the only way. I tell all of you who were against it that you are stupid and the tank was the best. 

We didn't have to tank, we could have fixed the drafting, sold the right assets, and just been kinda bad but the problem was by 2013, the damage was already done. 

Between 2006 and 2013, the Sabres have roughly 16 players that were drafted and actually mattered to an NHL team for a decent period of time. Out of those, 6 were traded before establishing themselves as NHL players. Another 3 were traded in or around the tank. Out of those 16 players none are stars. Tyler Ennis is the only one who I would consider a stable top 6 player for any length of time although Foligno showed flashes. Risto, Myers, and to a lesser degree McNabb and McCabe are the only 4 defenders of note that actually played on the team and contributed. 

In reality we are talking about 1 decent forward, and 3 defenders over 8 years of drafting that were valuable or would become valuable. 

The Sabres problem is and continues to be their piss poor drafting which directly led to tanking in order to ensure we got the high end talent. 

Which has been my point. The tank fundamentally wasn't wrong, everything that occurred starting after though has been dumb. 

They were already a failed team and you are 100% wrong on the original sin. 100%. The original sin was the piss poor drafting of the Buffalo Sabres for an extended period of time and that honestly continues to this day. 

Who are you trying to convince, me or you?

[DeleteThisAccount]

1 hour ago, nfreeman said:

I realize there are limits on how much detail you can provide in this regard, but maybe one specific question is OK:  was GMTM instructed by the Pegulas to carry out the tank, or did he advise them to tank, which they then approved?

Let's see what story I put together in the coming weeks, which might answer some of your questions.

[PASabreFan]

I brought up his oldest children the other day (sorry, Laura, I didn't get to your mini-bio). I kind of doubt this is the move the Pegulas would make because of how suspect it would be viewed as. (And Brawndo offered an interesting bucket of ice water on the idea.) But it should be considered. They view the franchise as a generational family asset, after all.

[DeleteThisAccount]

1 hour ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Do you really expect an answer?  And what difference does it make?  No way the damn tank happens without the owner's approval.  It all just stinks to this day.

Fooled you. There might actually be an answer and it might make a difference.

[LGR4GM]

I will scream this into the void of this godforsaken forum until it is understood, the Sabres problems all come back to one thing, drafting. 

Nylander instead of Sergachev

Johnson instead of Robertson or Hoglander

Asplund instead of Kyrou or Debrincat

Davidson instead of Comtois

Quinn instead of Jarvis

I can go on but they are easy fixes using analytics and cohorts for drafting as opposed to whatever it is they have used for years. Until the Sabres fix their drafting, nothing else matters. 

 

[PASabreFan]

1 minute ago, john wawrow said:

Let's see what story I put together in the coming weeks, which might answer some of your questions.

WEEKS!? I told you I wanted something on my desk by 4 p.m.!

[SDS]

2 minutes ago, john wawrow said:

Let's see what story I put together in the coming weeks, which might answer some of your questions.

This is time sensitive. We are going to need a draft by 5pm.

1 minute ago, PASabreFan said:

WEEKS!? I told you I wanted something on my desk by 4 p.m.!

Should I just delete mine?

[Randall Flagg]

The decision to rebuild was the right one. The selloff of obscene amounts of assets, to put a disgrace to the game of hockey on the ice for 2 years, leaving holes so big that many haven't been filled yet even though in a vacuum all of the tank defenders loved many of them along the way, was the original sin. Tank is a nice shorthand for this process. 

the 2015-16 offseason added more talent to the Buffalo Sabres than almost any offseason by any NHL team ever, I'd bet. I bet it's in the top percentile. Kane, ROR, Lehner, Eichel, Bogosian, full time 20 goal Sam Reinhart. There are obviously flawed players in here. But netting that amount of talent is extaordinarily rare for one summer, and we still sucked, because we depleted our asset pool that bad. Even if you generously bump up the impact we got from draft picks along the way, we still wouldn't have fixed key problems for years. The tank flushed half of a decade out the window even if you had a top tier GM running things. Any GM skill ranging from decent to horrible was bound to turn the total sum of summer 2015 Sabres assets into 7+ years of rough hockey, without ridiculous strings of luck. This is because the NHL offseason, with regard to established players, is a zero sum game. You cannot be involved in all, most, half, or even a third of all relevant NHL moves in the offseason. Other teams will beat you, and you have to lose stuff to get stuff. You HAVE to add to the total pool of available talent with draft picks, if you don't want to lose anything, and NHL draft picks are complete dice rolls. So you're adding to the worst skeleton in NHL history with dice rolls. Cumulative probability tells me that the tank was destined to fail

[PASabreFan]

2 minutes ago, SDS said:

This is time sensitive. We are going to need a draft by 5pm.

Should I just delete mine?

I always figured you were my brother from another mother. Too much alike.

[Thorny]

33 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

This level of certitude seems over the top. No reporter can know this for sure.

If the Pegulas are considering another big change in the management of the team so soon after the last one, wouldn't it imply the new guys will be gone?

I think you're one GM off. It was Darcy who was there at the start of the tank. (See also: suffering, succotash.) In the spring of '13 he talked about rebuilding on WGR and said the extent of the rebuild would be Terry's decision. Murray didn't come in for almost a year, after LaLa and Battista!™ went to Ottawa.

A remarkably poignant line in Sabres history with a growing legend

21 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

That seems like splitting hairs. Tanking is the original sin. There's no failed rebuild without it. Dad sold all of our worldly possessions to invest in Circuit City. I mean, he did a great job with the sale! He was all over Craigslist and eBay.

I agree the tank can be viewed as the original sin of sorts, the original sin of what i always call our Unusual ineptitude. Sure, there were mistakes before that, but they were within the realm of normality. Recoverable. I think the tank was the initial instigating event of the path we are currently down.

That's not to say it had to BE this long, either. It could have been fixed many times over. But, yes, I'd venture we aren't near this far gone without it. 

The story also isn't completely written. If Eichel wins a Conn Smythe trophy for Buffalo, the perception will change, if you think that makes it all worth it. 

Everyone here knows the answer to that, I suspect. Just seems so unlikely nowadays. 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Thorny

[Marvin]

27 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I think you're one GM off. It was Darcy who was there at the start of the tank. (See also: suffering, succotash.) In the spring of '13 he talked about rebuilding on WGR and said the extent of the rebuild would be Terry's decision. Murray didn't come in for almost a year, after LaLa and Battista!™ went to Ottawa.

I love you, PA.

 

[pi2000]

10 years too late, but I'll allow it

[SDS]

6 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

I always figured you were my brother from another mother. Too much alike.

I do enjoy a rousing episode of Murder, She Wrote. 

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

The decision to rebuild was the right one. The selloff of obscene amounts of assets, to put a disgrace to the game of hockey on the ice for 2 years, leaving holes so big that many haven't been filled yet even though in a vacuum all of the tank defenders loved many of them along the way, was the original sin. Tank is a nice shorthand for this process. 

the 2015-16 offseason added more talent to the Buffalo Sabres than almost any offseason by any NHL team ever, I'd bet. I bet it's in the top percentile. Kane, ROR, Lehner, Eichel, Bogosian, full time 20 goal Sam Reinhart. There are obviously flawed players in here. But netting that amount of talent is extaordinarily rare for one summer, and we still sucked, because we depleted our asset pool that bad. Even if you generously bump up the impact we got from draft picks along the way, we still wouldn't have fixed key problems for years. The tank flushed half of a decade out the window even if you had a top tier GM running things. Any GM skill ranging from decent to horrible was bound to turn the total sum of summer 2015 Sabres assets into 7+ years of rough hockey, without ridiculous strings of luck. This is because the NHL offseason, with regard to established players, is a zero sum game. You cannot be involved in all, most, half, or even a third of all relevant NHL moves in the offseason. Other teams will beat you, and you have to lose stuff to get stuff. You HAVE to add to the total pool of available talent with draft picks, if you don't want to lose anything, and NHL draft picks are complete dice rolls. So you're adding to the worst skeleton in NHL history with dice rolls. Cumulative probability tells me that the tank was destined to fail

Agree.

The rebuild immediately after was possible to pull off, and it failed, but the degree of difficulty was so high it was unlikely from conception we'd ever be able to pull it off successfully, for the reasons you laid out. 

[PASabreFan]

Listen, I lie awake and dream of threads like this. I went from 2:30 back to noon a bit ago. But, boiling it down, I am deflated. They want HELP running the team? I'm happy that the wording supports my meddling theory. But if the only outcome is that they hire whoever to come in and be hockey president, albeit a super president with possibly an ownership stake, what will it matter if Terry is still m------g?

[Marvin]

1 minute ago, SDS said:

I do enjoy a rousing episode of Murder, She Wrote. 

The only Murder, She Wrote I ever watched was the Magnum, p.i. cross-over.

[PASabreFan]

3 minutes ago, SDS said:

I do enjoy a rousing episode of Murder, She Wrote. 

Keep your butterscotches in your back right pocket?

[Thorny]

1 minute ago, PASabreFan said:

Listen, I lie awake and dream of threads like this. I went from 2:30 back to noon a bit ago. But, boiling it down, I am deflated. They want HELP running the team? I'm happy that the wording supports my meddling theory. But if the only outcome is that they hire whoever to come in and be hockey president, albeit a super president with possibly an ownership stake, what will it matter if Terry is still m------g?

That's what I was trying to get at earlier. 

As to the rest, they do say admitting you need help is the biggest thing

[SDS]

Just now, Thorny said:

Agree.

The rebuild immediately after was possible to pull off, and it failed, but the degree of difficulty was so high it was unlikely from conception we'd ever be able to pull it off successfully, for the reasons you laid out. 

The year we competed with Arizona for the bottom took out more than what was normally necessarily. More than teams like Toronto sacrificed.