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PerreaultForever

Can Samson play 2C?

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This is a thought I was having last night so I was wondering what people say about it. Reinhart was originally drafted as a center if I remember correctly, played a few games there to start, floundered, was sent back and then became the winger he is now. So he couldn't play center back then but can he now that'd be my question?

If he can, maybe we can get around this whole 2C issue. Opens up the possibility of looking at a number of different players for the wings or center and not just a hunt for that one elusive guy who is hard to get.

So you put Skinner back with Jack as the previous year and maybe you can get away with adding Cozens to that unit even as a rookie since Jack draws all the attention. That's your top unit.

2nd line is centered by Sam. Not sure who with but that's where the trade/FA options come in. You get wingers to complement his style. Maybe Kahun, maybe 2 new bodies that fit.

3rd line is a line I wanted to see last year and still want to see. A Swedish Connection. Oloffson, Asplund, Johanson.  Johanson a great playmaker, Oloffson a sniper, Asplund speedy 2 way player, they can communicate in Swedish if they like and be fairly dominant in a 3rd line role (which is where Johanson belongs).

4th line same as this year if we can sign them, if not, I guess it's whatever PK, grit and effort guys we can find.

I don't see Mitts or Tage as good enough and if they are all we have we wont' be any better.

Just a thought. 

 

Edited by PerreaultForever

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Not that I dislike Sam in any particular way, but much like every other player on this team, he seemingly becomes next to useless when not playing with Jack.

So at this point, no I don't see a 2C on this team. Unfortunately.

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3 coaches that needed centers have watched Sam play and said “he’s a RW”.

Nuff said.

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7 hours ago, Kristian said:

Not that I dislike Sam in any particular way, but much like every other player on this team, he seemingly becomes next to useless when not playing with Jack.

So at this point, no I don't see a 2C on this team. Unfortunately.

Sam actually can play away from Jack, he just can't really do it as a C.

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7 hours ago, Kristian said:

Not that I dislike Sam in any particular way, but much like every other player on this team, he seemingly becomes next to useless when not playing with Jack.

So at this point, no I don't see a 2C on this team. Unfortunately.

This has been disproved so often. Reinhart might produce slightly more with Eichel but he can absolutely do things without him. 

Chad DeDomincis did an entire article on it. 

https://www.expectedbuffalo.com/buffalo-sabres-myth-busting-sam-reinhart-cant-produce-without-jack-eichel/

 

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All evidence seems to say no, as much as I'd like it to be true. Valuable piece, maybe a great player to run the second powerplay unit, but it doesn't seem like 2C is in the cards.

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I like Reino a bunch. He's steady overall from year-to-year -- a half-seasony-streaky perhaps, but overall we can count on him for 20/30/50+ each season, and to score via deflection and make nifty seeing-eye passes to spring Eichel, and to be the only player on the ice to jump into the fray when Jack gets clobbered. He's a really solid sidekick and every movie team needs one of them in the lineup.

However, we're several seasons in and he's looking for an extension and he's never been a C with any success here in the NHL. Basically, if another team offers him a qualifying offer or trades for him and pays him 1/2C-level money, our initial reaction will be nervous laughter because that's what we did with Leino (although of course, Reino is better than Leino across the board, even at center).

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Sam Reinhart has played centre for an extended period twice: nine games as an 18-year-old on one of the worst teams in hockey history, and a similar stretch between Benoit Pouliot and Seth Griffith at 21 on a team that was nearly as bad.

He is a natural centre and the fact the Sabres never developed him into one is one of the more unsung failures of this era of ineptitude, but the window has closed. He is a winger now.

He probably still would be the 2nd best centre on this roster, but that’s more a commentary on the roster than his chances of being a solution.

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I would try him there with Skinner but I 100% do not believe the Sabres will. 

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No. He was tried there for quite some time and failed miserably.  Wing is where he belongs. He can't handle the extra responsibilities of a center.

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8 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

No. He was tried there for quite some time and failed miserably.  Wing is where he belongs. He can't handle the extra responsibilities of a center.

He wasn't. 

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Some WOWY with Jeff, Jack, and Sam.

Short version, in terms of CF%:

When the three of them are together, they are great.  Almost unstoppable.

Eichel benefits from having either Skinner or Reinhart (benefit is mutual).

When Reinhart or Skinner play without Eichel or eachother, they basically play as good as the rest of the team does without Eichel on the ice.  This is subpar and needs improvement.

When Reinhart and Skinner played together without Eichel, it was atrocious.  The sample size was smaller here, but it was still measurably bad.  I don't know what positions were played when this occurred.

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11 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

No. He was tried there for quite some time and failed miserably.  Wing is where he belongs. He can't handle the extra responsibilities of a center.

You’re certainly not alone in believing this, but the bolded is false.

Sam was never a centre in any circumstance where he had a reasonable chance to succeed.

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2 minutes ago, IKnowPhysics said:

Some WOWY with Jeff, Jack, and Sam.

Short version, in terms of CF%:

When the three of them are together, they are great.  Almost unstoppable.

Eichel benefits from having either Skinner or Reinhart (benefit is mutual).

When Reinhart or Skinner play without Eichel or eachother, they basically play as good as the rest of the team does without Eichel on the ice.  This is subpar and needs improvement.

When Reinhart and Skinner played together without Eichel, it was atrocious.  The sample size was smaller here, but it was still measurably bad.  I don't know what positions were played when this occurred.

22 minutes. I think you need 100 minutes to extrapolate out if I remember what the stats guys say. 

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Is the question can Sam Reinhart take the 2C role or is it can he reliably drive offensive production on a line away from Jack Eichel?

I honestly don't care if he can play C.  These days positions are largely relative. Players are aligned to cover areas of the ice based on strategy and skill.  The belief that the C has to be up and down the middle of the ice is outdated. 

To that end, I think Reinhart can drive his own line.  The Sabres however lack the depth to make a second line meaningful and taking him off the top line will weaken it.  So I think the natural inclination is to go get more talent to shore up that second line.  Potentially a player that can set up Jeff Skinner. 🙂

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10 minutes ago, IKnowPhysics said:

Some WOWY with Jeff, Jack, and Sam.

Short version, in terms of CF%:

When the three of them are together, they are great.  Almost unstoppable.

Eichel benefits from having either Skinner or Reinhart (benefit is mutual).

When Reinhart or Skinner play without Eichel or eachother, they basically play as good as the rest of the team does without Eichel on the ice.  This is subpar and needs improvement.

When Reinhart and Skinner played together without Eichel, it was atrocious.  The sample size was smaller here, but it was still measurably bad.  I don't know what positions were played when this occurred.

When Eichel plays without Jack or Skinner he is worse than when Reinhart or Skinner play solo just looking at Corsi. This is a problem I always have when using WOWY. Good players obviously play better with other good players so expecting them to play better with bad players is not logical. 

Jack solo: 44.33cf% 104.40 TOI

Sam solo: 48.25cf% 84.04 TOI

Jeff solo: 48.26cf% 668.46 TOI

Edited by LGR4GM

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16 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

He wasn't. 

And he didn't fail either.

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From those stats it looks to me like

Skinner should be paired with Jack and Samson should run the 2nd line from the RW slot.

If this works, it probably lessens are need to get a star 2C for now.

Skinner Jack Kahun

VO  2C Reinhart

 

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19 minutes ago, dudacek said:

You’re certainly not alone in believing this, but the bolded is false.

Sam was never a centre in any circumstance where he had a reasonable chance to succeed.

In game situations he's had small opportunities to prove himself.  However, he's been in camp with three head coaches on teams that needed centers, in years where the coaches have said they would be evaluating him at center, and at the end of camp Sam was in RW.  He's had his chances to be an NHL center.  He's shown people that evaluate him behind the scenes that he is more valuable at RW.

 

Edited by Weave
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12 minutes ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

From those stats it looks to me like

Skinner should be paired with Jack and Samson should run the 2nd line from the RW slot.

If this works, it probably lessens are need to get a star 2C for now.

Skinner Jack Kahun

VO  2C Reinhart

 

Something a good portion of this board BITCHED about the entire season. 

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1 minute ago, Weave said:

In game situations he's had small opportunities to prove himself.  However, he's been in camp with three head coaches on teams that needed centers, in years where the coaches have said they would be evaluating him at center, and at the end of camp Sam was in RW.  He's had his chances to prove he's a good NHL center.  He's shown people that evaluate him behind the scenes that he is more valuable at RW.

 

I think what you are remembering is the lead up to the two stints I describe.

Other than his first camp, I don’t remember any training camp or exhibition games where Sam got a serious look at centre. He flipped back and forth during Housley’s first camp, prior to the Griffith/Pouliot run.

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6 minutes ago, Weave said:

In game situations he's had small opportunities to prove himself.  However, he's been in camp with three head coaches on teams that needed centers, in years where the coaches have said they would be evaluating him at center, and at the end of camp Sam was in RW.  He's had his chances to be an NHL center.  He's shown people that evaluate him behind the scenes that he is more valuable at RW.

 

Of course he is more valuable at RW. Name another RW on the team. Okposo, end of list. 

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59 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Sam Reinhart has played centre for an extended period twice: nine games as an 18-year-old on one of the worst teams in hockey history, and a similar stretch between Benoit Pouliot and Seth Griffith at 21 on a team that was nearly as bad.

He is a natural centre and the fact the Sabres never developed him into one is one of the more unsung failures of this era of ineptitude, but the window has closed. He is a winger now.

He probably still would be the 2nd best centre on this roster, but that’s more a commentary on the roster than his chances of being a solution.

Sam is a natural center in the lower ranks of hockey because of his exceptional hockey IQ. But in the NHL his skating limitations associated with speed do not allow him to succeed as a top two line center. As a center he just couldn't make that qualitative leap into this league. He still has great instincts/intelligence that can be utilized as a winger. And that is where he is at. I simply do not blame the organization for him not overcoming his limitations. In this case he is what he is. And he is being used where he should be used.  

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4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Sam is a natural center in the lower ranks of hockey because of his exceptional hockey IQ. But in the NHL his skating limitations associated with speed do not allow him to succeed as a top two line center. As a center he just couldn't make that qualitative leap into this league. He still has great instincts/intelligence that can be utilized as a winger. And that is where he is at. I simply do not blame the organization for him not overcoming his limitations. In this case he is what he is. And he is being used where he should be used.  

Right. Because all good centres are burners.

Joe Thornton, Henrik Sedin, those guys definitely needed to be moved to wing after sucking as young centres.

Edited by dudacek
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