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Eleven

OT: The New Religion Thread.

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We had a religion thread.  It was not controversial.  I can't seem to find it.

It seems that a lot of people want to talk religion right now, which isn't unexpected given the events of our times.

This is your safe space.

Please be respectful of people of all faiths, of people of no faith, and of different sects of faiths (screwy protestants /s).

I know that religion sometimes, unfortunately, intersects with politics.  This isn't the place for that.  The politics club is.  This is for discussing religion, whether you are religious, faithful, or neither.  

Edited by Eleven

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Blind faith is such a tough concept to grasp..... I've been to churches/temples/monestaries etc of all walks of faith. I have a respect for almost all of them (extremists of each faith being the ones I can't respect) 

Being a man of "science" makes it even more challenging, I know of many non believers that have converted to one specific religion. 

Has anyone here been a devout follower of one sect and then made a large change into another religion completely? 

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9 minutes ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

Blind faith

Just my experience:  For most people who are faithful and/or religious (the difference to me is that faithful believe and religious actually go to services other than on holidays), faith isn't blind.  

Edited by Eleven

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1 hour ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

Blind faith is such a tough concept to grasp..... I've been to churches/temples/monestaries etc of all walks of faith. I have a respect for almost all of them (extremists of each faith being the ones I can't respect) 

Being a man of "science" makes it even more challenging, I know of many non believers that have converted to one specific religion. 

Has anyone here been a devout follower of one sect and then made a large change into another religion completely? 

Unfortunately, I have experienced 'blind faith' when I was starting to question some of the 'modern' (since the concept of Jesus being devine being adapted) teachings of Christianity.  The most common answer I got to my most pressing and reasonable questions always was ... 'that is were faith comes in'.  To me that is not really an answer to a tough question.  Those answers helped propel me on my journey to where I am today.  I think that most here know, but just to be clear I am a Muslim convert / revert.

Blind faith (not the awesome band mind you) is what helps many down the road to extremism.  And thank you for pointing out that extremists exist in every faith community, but in very small numbers, of course, which is very fortunate for the rest of us.

56 minutes ago, Eleven said:

Just my experience:  For most people who are faithful and/or religious (the difference to me is that faithful believe and religious actually go to services other than on holidays), faith isn't blind.  

This I tend to agree with, except when you start to ask the really hard questions, at least that has been my experience.  

Also, one very notable exception is my own family who took us all to Roman Catholic Mass every Sunday, but all it really ended up being was a place to stop to wait until the Sunday Brunch places opened up.  I am not ashamed of my background, or heritage, but I am ashamed of my family.

And thanks @Eleven for starting this thread.

Edited by New Scotland (NS)

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I was catholic because of my mother. But by the time I got into my teens I turned away from religion in general. Now I consider myself an agnostic. I have a fascination with all religions. Mostly in the stories and the evolution of the faiths.

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I believe there is a God, I pray to him although not as often as I should. I don't believe in any religion. To me it's all man made BS. I don't think that Being gives a flying manure if we eat meat on Fridays, fast during some time frame or obey any other man made BS rule. We are either believers, good people and love our fellow man or we don't. I don't think he's for any side during a war and is saddened by poverty, hunger and racism in a world of plenty. He'll judge over that not because we ate a hamburger during Lent or didn't eat chocolate during this time. Unfortunately I've become very jaded over religions aristocracy. That in a nutshell is where I stand on things.

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I believe there may be a higher power/all-inclusive energy force that we may all be connected to, and somehow able to tap into, etc., and could possibly reconnect to after our lives (however, without any perception thereof, in a "human" sense)

However, I believe, if we had the mental capacity, it would all be explainable in a scientific way.

Given the fact that our universe is so beyond our comprehension, and that there is so much we can never have the mental capacity to understand, therein lies whatever force I believe in. And I believe the universe is beautiful, and pain and suffering were just a necessary part of evolution.

 

I can't, however, believe in any "supernatural" forces/gods/spirits. I was raised Catholic, btw.

 

I believe there is a natural flow and tendency to how the universe is unfolding, and "good" is trying to tune into that, and "bad" is resisting that

 

For anyone who made it this far: does this sound vaguely like any established religion/philosophy? I'm very curious to read what people smarter than me have written about this way of thinking.

Edited by erickompositör72

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To me, there is plenty of room in one's life for both science and religion (or spirituality for those that are opposed to "religion.")  Though in large degree they are opposites, they aren't (at least shouldn't be) adversarial - they're complimentary.

Those that only know 1 half of that are missing out IMHO.

Science answers the how, the what, the when, and the where, but only superficially ever gets to the why.  Religion (faith, spirituality, however you name it) gets to the why.  Though it seems to give each of us a different answer to that. And as our understanding of the world improves our understanding of that why evolves.  (Kind of like how what we're taught about biology in second grade is different than that in high school is different than that at higher levels.)  As we grow, so does our ability to understand.  Spiritually, pretty much still that 2nd grader, though have tried to advance.  Maybe someday.  (Too friggin' tired to do much more than babble incoherently about this.  Back when we were younger; still babbled about topics like this but it seemed so much more coherent.  Probably was.)

And, for those who are of a Christian faith - wishing you a blessed Holy Saturday.  Those who aren't - have a good Saturday nonetheless.

🍺

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1 hour ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

the concept of Jesus being devine being adapted

Adapted?!

6 minutes ago, Taro T said:

To me, there is plenty of room in one's life for both science and religion (or spirituality for those that are opposed to "religion.")  Though in large degree they are opposites, they aren't (at least shouldn't be) adversarial - they're complimentary.

Those that only know 1 half of that are missing out IMHO.

Science answers the how, the what, the when, and the where, but only superficially ever gets to the why.  Religion (faith, spirituality, however you name it) gets to the why.  Though it seems to give each of us a different answer to that. And as our understanding of the world improves our understanding of that why evolves.  (Kind of like how what we're taught about biology in second grade is different than that in high school is different than that at higher levels.)  As we grow, so does our ability to understand.  Spiritually, pretty much still that 2nd grader, though have tried to advance.  Maybe someday.  (Too friggin' tired to do much more than babble incoherently about this.  Back when we were younger; still babbled about topics like this but it seemed so much more coherent.  Probably was.)

And, for those who are of a Christian faith - wishing you a blessed Holy Saturday.  Those who aren't - have a good Saturday nonetheless.

🍺

This is why I'm happy that my religion embraces, rather than rejects, science.  I actually learned about evolution in religion class before I learned about it in biology class.

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1 minute ago, Eleven said:

Adapted?!

This is why I'm happy that my religion embraces, rather than rejects, science.  I actually learned about evolution in religion class before I learned about it in biology class.

Really have a hard time comprehending why they're always cast as antagonistic.  There are questions science won't answer in my lifetime and probably not ever.  People need both sides IMHO.

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4 minutes ago, Taro T said:

why they're always cast as antagonistic

It sells papers.

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1 hour ago, Eleven said:

Adapted?!

This is why I'm happy that my religion embraces, rather than rejects, science.  I actually learned about evolution in religion class before I learned about it in biology class.

Yes.  Adapted.  The original Christians were devout Jews and did not ever consider Jesus (PBUH) as *God*, or *Son of God*.  Jesus (PBUH) never made such a claim.  The Trinity idea and the notion of Jesus (PBUH) being divine came considerable time after his death.  Very few Christians have not accepted that notion, but there are still some around.  The largest sect is in Eygpt, I believe.

I did not know that you are a Muslim.  To my knowledge, Islam is the only religion to accept and embrace science.  In fact, the two are very closely related.  The Qur'an is full of scientific facts that basically prove it's authenticity in that no human in the time of Muhammad (PBUH) had any idea about what was relayed in the Qur'an.

Edited by New Scotland (NS)
I really need to proof read everything before hitting post ...

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1 hour ago, jsb said:

I believe there is a God, I pray to him although not as often as I should. I don't believe in any religion. To me it's all man made BS. I don't think that Being gives a flying manure if we eat meat on Fridays, fast during some time frame or obey any other man made BS rule. We are either believers, good people and love our fellow man or we don't. I don't think he's for any side during a war and is saddened by poverty, hunger and racism in a world of plenty. He'll judge over that not because we ate a hamburger during Lent or didn't eat chocolate during this time. Unfortunately I've become very jaded over religions aristocracy. That in a nutshell is where I stand on things.

I tend to agree that many things done by people as part of their faith are not really part of the teachings, especially in Christianity.  That said, many of the Jewish traditions and strong beliefs (no pork ...) are in the Torah, which are the teachings of Moses (PBUH), which is believed to be delivered to Moses (PBUH) by God, not only by Jews, but by Muslims, as well.  The Qur'an commands Muslims fast during the holy month of Ramadan, with clearly outlined exemptions which are far reaching.

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44 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Yes.  Adapted.  The original Christians were devout Jews and did not ever consider Jesus (PBUH) as *God*, or *Son of God*.  Jesus (PBUH) never made such a claim.  The Trinity idea and the notion of Jesus (PBUH) being divine came considerable time after his death.  Very few Christians have not accepted that notion, but there are still some around.  The largest sect is in Eygpt, I believe.

The early history of christianity forming into a religion and political power is fascinating.

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Let's see if I remember this right. Church school and Catholic school religion class was a long time ago. The way I remember it was that the council of Nicaea in the year 300 something that decided the Divinity of Jesus. Constantine exiled some radicals who were against Jesus as the son of God, laid down some rules, came up with the Creed and couldn't nail down a date for Easter. And if I remember correctly the pope didn't show.

Now I'm sure I pulled some of that out of my ass. But that's the gist of what I remember. 

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52 minutes ago, ubkev said:

Let's see if I remember this right. Church school and Catholic school religion class was a long time ago. The way I remember it was that the council of Nicaea in the year 300 something that decided the Divinity of Jesus. Constantine exiled some radicals who were against Jesus as the son of God, laid down some rules, came up with the Creed and couldn't nail down a date for Easter. And if I remember correctly the pope didn't show.

Now I'm sure I pulled some of that out of my ass. But that's the gist of what I remember. 

That's pretty much it.

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Brought up Catholic because it's was my parent's duty to do so (heard that many times).  Never believed or bought in but had to go to Church "while I was still living in their house'.  The day I moved out was the last day I went to Church.  I'm an Atheist.  But, all my siblings remain Catholic.  If believing in a particular religion gives you peace, gives your life meaning and makes you a better, more tolerant person, that's great for all of us.

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5 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Yes.  Adapted.  The original Christians were devout Jews and did not ever consider Jesus (PBUH) as *God*, or *Son of God*.  Jesus (PBUH) never made such a claim.  The Trinity idea and the notion of Jesus (PBUH) being divine came considerable time after his death.  Very few Christians have not accepted that notion, but there are still some around.  The largest sect is in Eygpt, I believe.

I did not know that you are a Muslim.  To my knowledge, Islam is the only religion to accept and embrace science.  In fact, the two are very closely related.  The Qur'an is full of scientific facts that basically prove it's authenticity in that no human in the time of Muhammad (PBUH) had any idea about what was relayed in the Qur'an.

On the Eve of Easter, I couldn't let this stand uncorrected:

That's a tired old, long disproven trope.   Most scholars, even sceptics, believe that Gospels depict true events and were written in the decades that followed Jesus' crucifixion.  So, Matthew, Mark, Luke, & John would all disagree.  No one can read the New Testament and be in doubt that Jesus claimed that he was divine.  Indeed: That's the WHOLE story, how the Jewish authorities were outraged by Jesus' teachings and claims of divine provenance: that's why they killed him!

  John 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

I quote:

--

Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.” So they picked up stones to throw at him, but Jesus hid himself and went out of the temple.

Jesus uses the title “I AM,” the name God uses for Himself when answering Moses in Exodus 3:14. The reaction of the Pharisees confirms this is precisely what Jesus was claiming because they tried to stone Him for blasphemy.

--

                                 

Jesus makes it entirely clear to those who are tuned in.   Furthermore, the Old Testament TaNaK also prophesied Jesus.  The Jews at the time just misunderstood the prophecies.

Christianity was founded by Jews:  Jesus, the 12 Disciples, and Paul.


It is Islam which has the historicity problems.  There are no references to Mohammed for decades.  The Mosques point in different directions for over 100 years as if they

didn't know to pray towards Petra, Jerusalem, or the new teeny tiny tent city of Mecca (which was on no maps of the time); Mecca  was home to the new power brokers after Uthman.

                           

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8 hours ago, Eleven said:

Just my experience:  For most people who are faithful and/or religious (the difference to me is that faithful believe and religious actually go to services other than on holidays), faith isn't blind.  

That's what people get wrong ALL THE TIME.   Faith isn't blind. That's why Jesus came in the flesh for all to see Him, his teachings, and his miracles.  

For Christians, 1st it was the empty tomb. 2nd it was seeing Jesus resurrected, 3rd it was seeing the miracles that the disciples worked in Jesus name.

True born-again Christians have the Holy Spirit (i.e. God!) dwelling IN them !   That's experience, having God live right inside of you!

So, yeah, the first step might be a leap of faith, but God reveals truth to his children (IFF you seek it until you find it!!)

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I spent the majority of my life as a catholic. I was baptized, confirmed, the whole deal. My first deployment was particularly trying. We had lost a lot of men and I was going through a particularly difficult breakup. One particular Sunday, I decided to attend mass with our Chaplin. Throughout my service I had always found great comfort in attending mass, and while it had been probably a year since I last went, I thought this might be what I need to help with what had ailed me.

There were only about five us of who attended. I’m not sure how that compared to a normal service, but I didn’t think it was too particular as the army isn’t exactly teeming with Catholics. I remember it was myself and a group of five special forces officers, all of whom were serving along side me in ops positions at the time. One of the officers, a captain, found himself called on to a team that Tuesday due to an injury. That Wednesday, he was shot in the head in a green on blue attack. 

From that day forward, I have never considered myself a follower in Christ. It just did not make any sense to me. I could not wrap my mind around the fact that here was a man, truly one of America’s finest warriors and leaders, who spent his Sunday morning attending mass, and was greeted with a bullet rather than a return home to his family. 

I found myself struggling even more so after this incident. I had several panic attacks and I had lost a certain sense of comfort and direction. I did not know how to reconcile this incident with my beliefs. I truly loved the Catholic Church and it’s teachings and traditions, but I struggled to believe in its teachings. After a second deployment, an honorable discharge, and several psychedelic experiences, I found myself turned on to the teaching of Marcus Aurelius and stoicism. I credit his book, Mediations, as well as several other stoic texts for changing my life. While stoicism certainly isn’t religion, I found that it’s practices and principles lead me to living a similar, or not greater, existence than that what was offer by the church. I have found great fulfillment in stoic texts and I feel like I am in a better place now than the church could ever offer me.

I still struggle with my faith and it is near impossible for me to attend a church service without my mind wandering towards loss and unfairness and undo suffering. The last several I have attended I have walked out of if not in tears than with my eyes swelled. Part of me deeply misses the church, but the majority can only think of the deep unfairness that I feel I witnessed. Someday I hope to find a more solid footing in my beliefs, as I know that last thing the dead would have wished for is a loss of faith. As for now, I live my life based on the principles of Marcus Aurelius and am more deeply happy and satisfied than I ever have been. Yet there is a part of me that long for the Catholic Church and that is something that will someday need to be dealt with.  
  

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Still reeling from the realization that the substance of religion/theology goes (light years) beyond my old dorm-room, Four-Horsemen-brand atheism's projections, which I began noticing a year or so ago. Especially its place for people who have experienced how dark life can get, and its role in evolutionary psychology of the human being and its society/civilization. (Again, I'm still in the stage of being stunned by the existence of monstrous depth I was unaware of, not that I have any sort of grasp or ability to explain or understand these things, which I don't) 

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2 hours ago, #freejame said:

From that day forward, I have never considered myself a follower in Christ. It just did not make any sense to me. I could not wrap my mind around the fact that here was a man, truly one of America’s finest warriors and leaders, who spent his Sunday morning attending mass, and was greeted with a bullet rather than a return home to his family

God called home my Sara, and still I believe.  

Edited by Eleven
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3 hours ago, Eleven said:

God called home my Sara, and still I believe.  

I never had issues reconciling loss and religion before that happened. It was just one of those things. I turned to God in a time of need and I felt like it was thrown in my face. If anything, it showed me that there was a higher power and it did not care what I believe and what I practiced. 
 

I have a very difficult time calling myself an atheist, I don’t think that’s what I am at all. But I don’t think I will ever believe in religion again. I think what’s going on is far different than anything that can be found in a text and I don’t believe that if there is a God, it would be petty enough to spite a good person just because they don’t believe in religion. I am still searching for what I believe to be at the center of things, I hope someday to figure it out. 

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Well, so much for being civil.   I will not address the post above that was in reply to mine, except to say that I respectfully disagree with all of it.  It is accepted widely by most Christians that the Gospels have been altered to meet a narrative.  Also, down through the ages Prophets fortold of future Prophets.  Moses (PBUH) fortold of Jesus (PBUH) and Jesus (PBUH) fortold of Muhammad (PBUH) and many others.

Nice try @Eleven, I am a bit surprised it lasted as long as it did.

I wish everyone who is celebrating the day in any way a very Blessed Easter.

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