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OT: The New Religion Thread.

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1 minute ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Bosnia ... Kosovo ... Palestine ... the former Soviet Union ... 

Thanks. I forgot about those. I wouldn't want to be anywhere close to Chechnya!

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5 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

Agreed. This is progress.  You came out swinging like a traditional Muslim.  You have corrected me and shown me that I was wrong in that assumption.   I'm glad that you're able to think for yourself and to choose your own path.  I would hope that we could have peace between us.

 

@ Dudaceck:  Thanks.   China immediately comes to mind regarding their heavy-handed subjection and persecution of the Uyghurs.

Thanks.  I don't agree, obviously, with the first part, but will agree that we can have peace between us.  Islam and Christianity are religions of peace afterall.

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1 minute ago, Crosschecking said:

Thanks. I forgot about those. I wouldn't want to be anywhere close to Chechnya!

Unfortunately, the list is long of people doing terrible things to others.

I think that I have said my peace and @etiennep99 and I have a basic understanding to agree to disagree on this to try to mitigagte the arguing.

For now, I have said my peace and I think it is best if I stay out of this thread for a while.

Shalom / Salam / Peace

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46 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

I like how you put your abbreviations in all-caps. Old-school and much clearer. 🙂

At least we can agree on something. I was beginning to wonder if you had a particular animus against acronyms and abbreviations. Apparently not.

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1 hour ago, etiennep99 said:

I also said that you may go your way in peace.   

Whatever you said additionally does not change the impact of what I originally quoted.

Quote

You had said that you sought and didn't find. I said that you must REALLY WANT TO FIND IT.   Just look at what is happening now.  Seemingly everyone, including the "Christians" are either attacking me or leaving me undefended.  Were you ever willing to sacrifice like that, to have people HATE you for your belief in Jesus?   I'm not condemning you nor judging you. I'm just saying, there's a cost to pay.

Um, yes. You have no idea how much $#! I took for being a Christian. No idea.

 

EDIT: just adding, you assume way too much

Edited by erickompositör72
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3 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

Um, yes. You have no idea how much $#! I took for being a Christian. No idea.

I hear ya. I've come to the point that it's not about me at all. I realize that it comes with the territory, but that I also need to repay evil with good.

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9 minutes ago, Crosschecking said:

I hear ya. I've come to the point that it's not about me at all. I realize that it comes with the territory, but that I also need to repay evil with good.

It isn't really an issue anymore, since I'm not a Christian anymore (but do feel very inspired by the words of Jesus/the Gospels, not so much other parts of the new testament).

I just laugh when people just assume- I must not have "truly" believed, since I no longer believe.

 

EDIT: also wanted to add, I find your dialogues with @New Scotland (NS) in this thread incredibly heartening. Kudos 

Edited by erickompositör72
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2 hours ago, etiennep99 said:

Bravo. That's exactly what I was expecting to hear.  You've been sitting back taking the high road, so to speak.

So, let's talk Marcus Aurelius.  He tacitly allowed persecution of Christians to increase, until perhaps this happened, I quote Wikipedia.

The early Christian apologist, Justin Martyr, includes within his First Apology (written between 140 and 150 A.D.) a letter from Marcus Aurelius to the Roman senate (prior to his reign) describing a battlefield incident in which Marcus believed Christian prayer had saved his army from thirst when "water poured from heaven," after which, "immediately we recognized the presence of God." Marcus goes on to request the senate desist from earlier courses of Christian persecution by Rome.[300]

 

Care to comment?  How does his do no violence to others mesh with his many wars and his earlier persecution of Christians?

I’m not taking any high road, I am following my own path. I’m also not sure how I have been sitting back, I’ve made many posts in this thread since it started and believe that I have done a fair job of explaining my beliefs as well as my understanding of the beliefs of others. 

As for your bolded questions, I will do my best to answer them with historical accuracy. However, it’s important to remember that Marcus Aurelius was, first and foremost, fallible and secondly, no prophet or messiah or savior, simply a man. He never intended for Mediations to be anything more than a personal reflection and the fact that the masses are now lucky enough to have it is nothing short of good fortunate. Now, while I have a familiarity with Roman history (shout out to Mary Beard and Dan Carlin), the history of Rome has little to do with the practice of Stoicism so take the following with a grain of salt. 

My understanding of the wars undertaken by MA is that these were not wars that he sought of but rather wars which came to him. Rome was experiencing invasion from the North and the East, and something had to be done to protect the empire. MA did not seek war for fame or glory, but fought because it was his responsibility to do so as emperor. Additionally, violence is not fully incompatible with Stoicism. We all have responsibilities to ourselves, and depending on which philosopher speaks most to you, others closely around us. While Seneca might say letting anyone outside of your own mind and body affect you is wrong, Marcus Aurelius took a more encompassing approach and understood he has duties to uphold as a person. It’s also important to note that he did not set out to be emperor. Had he not taken on this position, his responsibilities would have been far different and likely would never have been in any wars himself.

As far as Christian persecution is concerned, I had not heard of this and did a simple google search. The results more or less indicate he played no role in the persecution of Christians, and while he could have done more to prevent Christian persecution, he acted numerous times in defense of the persecuted and did much to stop it. The singular source for MA and Christian persecution was written over 120 years after the alleged events and has very few who believe in its authenticity.

Again, while stoicism has its foundation in Ancient Rome, Ancient Rome has little to do with the philosophy (which is part of the beauty of it all).

 

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@etiennep99,

I have a question for you.  An authenitc question, as I really want to know.

I noticed that in one of your posts you used the greeting Shalom (Peace, for anyone not familiar with the term).  I will assume you know the common usage of the word and by whom traditionally.

Yesterday when I was speaking with my good friends in Toronto ... (a bit of history, as it is important for this discussion.  I have know these people for over 30 years.  They were Born Again Christians when we met and I thought that was great.  They respected that I was on a different path.  Our friendship has grown and has withstood their 10 years in Hong Kong and, more importantly, my path that lead me 10 years ago to say my shahada (testimony of faith) and officially and publicly proclaim that I am a Muslim.  There is a lesson there for many) ... to wish them a Blessed Easter they closed the call with Shalom.

I never had the chance to aske them, so I ask you ...

When and why did Born Again Christians start using Shalom as a greeting?

Edited by New Scotland (NS)

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16 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

@etiennep99,

I have a question for you.  An authenitc question, as I really want to know.

I noticed that in one of your posts you used the greeting Shalom (Peace, for anyone not familiar with the term).  I will assume you know the common usage of the word and by whom traditionally.

Yesterday when I was speaking with my good friends in Toronto ... (a bit of history, as it is important for this discussion.  I have know these people for over 30 years.  They were Born Again Christians when we met and I thought that was great.  They respected that I was on a different path.  Our friendship has grown and has withstood their 10 years in Hong Kong and, more importantly, my path that lead me 10 years ago to say my shahada (testimony of faith) and officially and publicly proclaim that I am a Muslim.  There is a lesson there for many) ... to wish them a Blessed Easter they closed the call with Shalom.

I never had the chance to aske them, so I ask you ...

When and why did Born Again Christians start using Shalom as a greeting?

I'm only speaking for me, and not for him. I don't think it's necessary nor essential to do this. However, this article might give you some insight.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Roots

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On 4/13/2020 at 5:18 PM, erickompositör72 said:

It isn't really an issue anymore, since I'm not a Christian anymore (but do feel very inspired by the words of Jesus/the Gospels, not so much other parts of the new testament).

I just laugh when people just assume- I must not have "truly" believed, since I no longer believe.

 

EDIT: also wanted to add, I find your dialogues with @New Scotland (NS) in this thread incredibly heartening. Kudos 

Thanks. I know we're not the only ones that can have a civil discussion. It just doesn't always appear that way, especially when many of us want to uphold our own narratives and keep our comfort spaces.

As I've grown, one of the things I've learned is just how tightly interwoven the whole canon of Scripture is. I've found many of the fulfilled OT prophecies to be absolutely fascinating. But I also strive to look for patterns of consistency.

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9 hours ago, Crosschecking said:

I'm only speaking for me, and not for him. I don't think it's necessary nor essential to do this. However, this article might give you some insight.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Roots

Thank you for posting.  Very interesting and informative.

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Of all the human energy that is spent thinking about religion, and attending religious events (events, for lack of a better word), and praying, and putting religious beliefs into practice ("doing good"), what percentage is taken up by "doing good"? My guess is a very small percentage. Meanwhile, those who focus on doing good and none of the other stuff will burn in hell forever, forced to watch Lucic, Hull and Leino's OT goal on an eternal loop.

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49 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Of all the human energy that is spent thinking about religion, and attending religious events (events, for lack of a better word), and praying, and putting religious beliefs into practice ("doing good"), what percentage is taken up by "doing good"? My guess is a very small percentage. Meanwhile, those who focus on doing good and none of the other stuff will burn in hell forever, forced to watch Lucic, Hull and Leino's OT goal on an eternal loop.

The better word is 'services.'

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50 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Of all the human energy that is spent thinking about religion, and attending religious events (events, for lack of a better word), and praying, and putting religious beliefs into practice ("doing good"), what percentage is taken up by "doing good"? My guess is a very small percentage. Meanwhile, those who focus on doing good and none of the other stuff will burn in hell forever, forced to watch Lucic, Hull and Leino's OT goal on an eternal loop.

To what I put in bold- ideally, I think these elements, when done correctly, are utilized to support one's own personal mental/emotional well-being. For many, it's difficult to "do good" if one is not in a healthy mental/emotional space.

Not saying it always works this way, but I believe this does legitimize it in a logical way.

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10 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

To what I put in bold- ideally, I think these elements, when done correctly, are utilized to support one's own personal mental/emotional well-being. For many, it's difficult to "do good" if one is not in a healthy mental/emotional space.

Not saying it always works this way, but I believe this does legitimize it in a logical way.

Almost everyone who's done it will tell you that doing good is its own form of therapy. Chicken and egg, I guess. Religion as a means to an end doesn't quite cut it for me. Walking and sometimes pretending I'm a runner always put me in a good place mentally. I wouldn't call it a religion. Randall can cite how people turn to religion in times of personal crises, and it helps. So does drinking, doing drugs and eating pastries (yes, all at the same time).

Edited by PASabreFan

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23 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Almost everyone who's done it will tell you that doing good is its own form of therapy. Chicken and egg, I guess. Religion as a means to an end doesn't quite cut it for me. Walking and sometimes pretending I'm a runner always put me in a good place mentally. I wouldn't call it a religion. Randall can cite how people turn to religion in times of personal crises, and it helps. So does drinking, doing drugs and eating pastries (yes, all at the same time).

As somebody who doesn't believe in religion, per se, I still do find I'm a more productive and *actualized* person when I am taking time to meditate and reflect. I also stop by a progressive Lutheran church every Sunday in a while, because I was involved with their music program for years. The sense of community they have is truly special and unique, albeit I haven't seen many Christian churches that have a true community feel on par with this church I speak of. Perhaps it's because it's one of few churches where LGBTQ+ are truly (and have historically been) embraced.

Edited by erickompositör72
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1 hour ago, erickompositör72 said:

As somebody who doesn't believe in religion, per se, I still do find I'm a more productive and *actualized* person when I am taking time to meditate and reflect. I also stop by a progressive Lutheran church every Sunday in a while, because I was involved with their music program for years. The sense of community they have is truly special and unique, albeit I haven't seen many Christian churches that have a true community feel on par with this church I speak of. Perhaps it's because it's one of few churches where LGBTQ+ are truly (and have historically been) embraced.

The bolded is a big issue in most every faith community that I know.  There is a United Church of Canada (very different than the US United Church) were we used to live in Bedford, NS, which is completely open and even has welcomed gay ministers.

The thing is that none of the scriptures actually condemn homosexuality.  It has grown out of peoples fears and has become part of many religion's teachings.  And please do not come at me with the Sodam and Gomorrah stuff, especially if you do not know what was the forbidden behavior outlined in The Bible and in The Qur'an.

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Just now, New Scotland (NS) said:

The bolded is a big issue in most every faith community that I know.  There is a United Church of Canada (very different than the US United Church) were we used to live in Bedford, NS, which is completely open and even has welcomed gay ministers.

The thing is that none of the scriptures actually condemn homosexuality.  It has grown out of peoples fears and has become part of many religion's teachings.  And please do not come at me with the Sodam and Gomorrah stuff, especially if you do not know what was the forbidden behavior outlined in The Bible and in The Qur'an.

Indeed. The pastor at the church I speak of is happy to use scripture to back up his stance on homosexuality and back up his practice of same-sex marriages at the church. Just make sure you brush up on your Greek if you want to debate him; he'll be quoting the scriptures in the original language 😉

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7 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

The bolded is a big issue in most every faith community that I know.  There is a United Church of Canada (very different than the US United Church) were we used to live in Bedford, NS, which is completely open and even has welcomed gay ministers.

The thing is that none of the scriptures actually condemn homosexuality.  It has grown out of peoples fears and has become part of many religion's teachings.  And please do not come at me with the Sodam and Gomorrah stuff, especially if you do not know what was the forbidden behavior outlined in The Bible and in The Qur'an.

This would be great clickbait. You won't believe what behavior was REALLY forbidden in the Bible! Click here to find out!

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12 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Thank you for posting.  Very interesting and informative.

YW. What is really bizarre out of that whole mix is the Sacred Name Movement. I see nothing in the Scriptures to justify it whatsoever.

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9 hours ago, erickompositör72 said:

Indeed. The pastor at the church I speak of is happy to use scripture to back up his stance on homosexuality and back up his practice of same-sex marriages at the church. Just make sure you brush up on your Greek if you want to debate him; he'll be quoting the scriptures in the original language 😉

In other words, he's really inside hockey on this one. The average layman wouldn't stand a chance in having an argument with him. However, in a formal moderated debate, he would be put to the test.

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On 4/15/2020 at 3:27 PM, PASabreFan said:

This would be great clickbait. You won't believe what behavior was REALLY forbidden in the Bible! Click here to find out!

The link won't redirect. Am I missing something here?

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5 hours ago, Crosschecking said:

The link won't redirect. Am I missing something here?

Proof that PA was right, lol.

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