OT: The New Religion Thread.

[#freejame]

1 hour ago, etiennep99 said:

Would you like fries with that?

Sorry if you were offended.  It was meant as a perfect reply to your condescending advice to get with the program and shut up.

Religious discussion isn't the stuff of milquetoast and tea.  It seems like I'm the one trying to discuss and the rest are throwing rocks.  I'm quoting Marcus Aurelius. Why isn't the Stoic quoting him?    You guys watch hockey players hit, slash, and fight. Many of you cheer it.  But if a person says something of substance, people get all offended.

Because that’s not how stoicism works?

I live my life adhering to the principles of stoicism, and as I stoic, I have no need to spread the word or worry about your actions at all. That’s kind of the whole idea, ya know. I can recite plenty out of any number of my heavily highlights and annotated texts, but again, stoicism is for the individual, not for the masses. If you think you’re being smart by asking this, you do not understand stoicism. But that’s not a concern of mine, because I don’t let the actions of others affect me.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

On 4/12/2020 at 2:50 PM, Curt said:

This is out of line.  We are respectful of other people’s views here.

There is no reason that we can not wish each other a good holiday.  You don’t get to decide if it’s ok or not.

Also, you are saying things here that NS never ever said and throwing it under the umbrella of “Muslims believe”.

Thank you.  You have been doing a noble job of making this a good thread for good discussion.  I also thank you for defending me in these hateful attacks.

For full disclosure, I as a Muslim do not belive that Jesus (PBUH) was crucified.  The passage in the Qur'an that was quoted tells me that.  God has never allowed one of his messangers to be killed a horrible death.  In this case, I am told that He made it appear that Jesus (PBUH) was made to appear to be crucified, which we would all say would be a horrible death, but he was not and he was called back to heaven to be with God until the day of judgement.  Certainly not a hoax by the standard definition.

For further clarification ... I and every Muslim believe Jesus (PBUH) to be one of the kindest and greatest people to ever live.  One that should be emulated in every way.  We also believe that he is the Messiah (the choosen one) and will come back to earth in the last days.  The one small difference is that we do not believe he was / is divine, which is no different than our feelings of any other being on earth.  I belive that there is only one God, but that is what is right for me.  The rest of you can decide what is right for you, which would include any that don't believe in God at all, or question His existance.  One other thing, Allah is Arabic for God, which most of you know.  It is better than the word God, as in Arabic Allah is gender neutral.  Arabic speaking Christians and Jews refer to God as Allah, not just Muslims.  Allah is not the Muslim God and God the Christian God.  He is the same.  Many non Arabic speakers are starting to use the term Allah, as it is a better term when one understands the root and meaning of the word and the fact that it is gender neutral.

Salam / Peace

[MakeSabresGrr8Again]

2 hours ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

This is essentially true, but very few are out there preaching that you better come with me, or else.  Most religions teach that the we are to respect the others' views andtreat them with respect.  The only ones who really do the hard selling are the Evangelical Christians, from my experience.

I really wish this were the case, but I have my doubts, especially if I continue to participate in this discussion.  His hatred of Islam and, therefore, me knows no bounds.

@New Scotland (NS)...I don't really know you and I haven't been on these boards very long compared to alot of others but, I've always had a great deal of respect for you as a person. You've been gracious on all posts that I have read and even calmed me down a few times when I wandered into some pressing conversations. You were very kind in welcoming me to these boards and it was appreciated. My "spidey senses" tell me that you are of sound mind and strong faith and a man of conviction that knows whats wrong or right. That's all that should matter. 

I feel that whatever makes a person good to themselves and others is all that counts. Whether that be religion, a strong up-bringing, moral beliefs, etc and not just one day of the week/year.

Take care. Be safe. 

[etiennep99]

33 minutes ago, #freejame said:

Because that’s not how stoicism works?

I live my life adhering to the principles of stoicism, and as I stoic, I have no need to spread the word or worry about your actions at all. That’s kind of the whole idea, ya know. I can recite plenty out of any number of my heavily highlights and annotated texts, but again, stoicism is for the individual, not for the masses. If you think you’re being smart by asking this, you do not understand stoicism. But that’s not a concern of mine, because I don’t let the actions of others affect me.

Bravo. That's exactly what I was expecting to hear.  You've been sitting back taking the high road, so to speak.

So, let's talk Marcus Aurelius.  He tacitly allowed persecution of Christians to increase, until perhaps this happened, I quote Wikipedia.

The early Christian apologist, Justin Martyr, includes within his First Apology (written between 140 and 150 A.D.) a letter from Marcus Aurelius to the Roman senate (prior to his reign) describing a battlefield incident in which Marcus believed Christian prayer had saved his army from thirst when "water poured from heaven," after which, "immediately we recognized the presence of God." Marcus goes on to request the senate desist from earlier courses of Christian persecution by Rome.^[300]

 

Care to comment?  How does his do no violence to others mesh with his many wars and his earlier persecution of Christians?

[Sabres Fan in NS]

17 minutes ago, MakeSabresGrr8Again said:

@New Scotland (NS)...I don't really know you and I haven't been on these boards very long compared to alot of others but, I've always had a great deal of respect for you as a person. You've been gracious on all posts that I have read and even calmed me down a few times when I wandered into some pressing conversations. You were very kind in welcoming me to these boards and it was appreciated. My "spidey senses" tell me that you are of sound mind and strong faith and a man of conviction that knows whats wrong or right. That's all that should matter. 

I feel that whatever makes a person good to themselves and others is all that counts. Whether that be religion, a strong up-bringing, moral beliefs, etc and not just one day of the week/year.

Take care. Be safe. 

Thank you.  I do appreciate your kind words.  You are correct that being a good person in every respect is most important.  In fact, I will say it is the only thing of import.

[etiennep99]

33 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Thank you.  You have been doing a noble job of making this a good thread for good discussion.  I also thank you for defending me in these hateful attacks.

For full disclosure, I as a Muslim do not belive that Jesus (PBUH) was crucified.  The passage in the Qur'an that was quoted tells me that.  God has never allowed one of his messangers to be killed a horrible death.  In this case, I am told that He made it appear that Jesus (PBUH) was made to appear to be crucified, which we would all say would be a horrible death, but he was not and he was called back to heaven to be with God until the day of judgement.  Certainly not a hoax by the standard definition.

For further clarification ... I and every Muslim believe Jesus (PBUH) to be one of the kindest and greatest people to ever live.  One that should be emulated in every way.  We also believe that he is the Messiah (the choosen one) and will come back to earth in the last days.  The one small difference is that we do not believe he was / is divine, which is no different than our feelings of any other being on earth.  I belive that there is only one God, but that is what is right for me.  The rest of you can decide what is right for you, which would include any that don't believe in God at all, or question His existance.  One other thing, Allah is Arabic for God, which most of you know.  It is better than the word God, as in Arabic Allah is gender neutral.  Arabic speaking Christians and Jews refer to God as Allah, not just Muslims.  Allah is not the Muslim God and God the Christian God.  He is the same.  Many non Arabic speakers are starting to use the term Allah, as it is a better term when one understands the root and meaning of the word and the fact that it is gender neutral.

Salam / Peace

Shalom.   Here's a list of the 25 countries that persecute Christians the most.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/jul/27/where-in-the-world-is-it-worst-place-to-be-a-christian

 

North Korea, Somalia, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Sudan, Iran, Pakistan, Eritrea, Nigeria, the Maldives, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Yemen, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, CAR, Qatar, Kenya, Turkmenistand Ethiopia, Egypt, Djibouti, and Burma.  Do we notice a commonality here.  22 are Muslim.

I quote about Saudi Arabia: "... conversion from Islam is punishable by death. Church buildings are forbidden and so Christians meet in house churches, which are frequently raided. Christians may be arrested, imprisoned, tortured and deported for their faith."

How is that Shalom and love for your Christian and Jewish brothers?    ISIS isn't the aberration; they are the fundamentalist, true believers.

How's this? You can keep the Middle East, and the West can remain free?  

 

Edit: And for what it's worth, I've considered the US military intervention in the Middle East to mostly bad and often based on lies.  Missing Weapons of mass destruction, lies about Iraqis throwing babies out of incubators, duplicity in our dealings with Iraq and Iran, funding Bin Laden during the 1980's.  I could go on.   And, I've been attacked on this board numerous times, but I think 9/11 was a very complex situation whose official story smells to high heaven.  I've never been one of those "get the Ayatollah and all of those A-Rabs" person [knowing of course the Persians are mostly not Arabs.].

Edited April 13, 2020 by etiennep99
Added addendum.

[SwampD]

6 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

Shalom.   Here's a list of the 25 countries that persecute Christians the most.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/jul/27/where-in-the-world-is-it-worst-place-to-be-a-christian

 

North Korea, Somalia, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Sudan, Iran, Pakistan, Eritrea, Nigeria, the Maldives, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Yemen, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, CAR, Qatar, Kenya, Turkmenistand Ethiopia, Egypt, Djibouti, and Burma.  Do we notice a commonality here.  22 are Muslim.

I quote about Saudi Arabia: "... conversion from Islam is punishable by death. Church buildings are forbidden and so Christians meet in house churches, which are frequently raided. Christians may be arrested, imprisoned, tortured and deported for their faith."

How is that Shalom and love for your Christian and Jewish brothers?    ISIS isn't the aberration; they are the fundamentalist, true believers.

How's this? You can keep the Middle East, and the West can remain free?  

Hows this, you can go away, and SabreSpace gets to keep NS?

[etiennep99]

1 minute ago, SwampD said:

Hows this, you can go away, and SabreSpace gets to keep NS?

? You're a funny guy.  Hospitable, perhaps no so much.

 

Matthew 10

12 "And when ye come into an house, salute it."
13 "And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you."
14 "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet."
15 "Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."
 

[erickompositör72]

13 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

Shalom.   Here's a list of the 25 countries that persecute Christians the most.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/jul/27/where-in-the-world-is-it-worst-place-to-be-a-christian

 

North Korea, Somalia, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Sudan, Iran, Pakistan, Eritrea, Nigeria, the Maldives, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Yemen, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, CAR, Qatar, Kenya, Turkmenistand Ethiopia, Egypt, Djibouti, and Burma.  Do we notice a commonality here.  22 are Muslim.

I quote about Saudi Arabia: "... conversion from Islam is punishable by death. Church buildings are forbidden and so Christians meet in house churches, which are frequently raided. Christians may be arrested, imprisoned, tortured and deported for their faith."

How is that Shalom and love for your Christian and Jewish brothers?    ISIS isn't the aberration; they are the fundamentalist, true believers.

How's this? You can keep the Middle East, and the West can remain free?  

 

Edit: And for what it's worth, I've considered the US military intervention in the Middle East to mostly bad and often based on lies.  Missing Weapons of mass destruction, lies about Iraqis throwing babies out of incubators, duplicity in our dealings with Iraq and Iran, funding Bin Laden during the 1980's.  I could go on.   And, I've been attacked on this board numerous times, but I think 9/11 was a very complex situation whose official story smells to high heaven.  I've never been one of those "get the Ayatollah and all of those A-Rabs" person [knowing of course the Persians are mostly not Arabs.].

A theocracy is not the same as a religion

[Sabres Fan in NS]

10 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

Shalom.   Here's a list of the 25 countries that persecute Christians the most.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/ng-interactive/2015/jul/27/where-in-the-world-is-it-worst-place-to-be-a-christian

 

North Korea, Somalia, Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan, Sudan, Iran, Pakistan, Eritrea, Nigeria, the Maldives, Saudi Arabia, Libya, Yemen, Uzbekistan, Vietnam, CAR, Qatar, Kenya, Turkmenistand Ethiopia, Egypt, Djibouti, and Burma.  Do we notice a commonality here.  22 are Muslim.

I quote about Saudi Arabia: "... conversion from Islam is punishable by death. Church buildings are forbidden and so Christians meet in house churches, which are frequently raided. Christians may be arrested, imprisoned, tortured and deported for their faith."

How is that Shalom and love for your Christian and Jewish brothers?    ISIS isn't the aberration; they are the fundamentalist, true believers.

How's this? You can keep the Middle East, and the West can remain free?  

 

Edit: And for what it's worth, I've considered the US military intervention in the Middle East to mostly bad and often based on lies.  Missing Weapons of mass destruction, lies about Iraqis throwing babies out of incubators, duplicity in our dealings with Iraq and Iran, funding Bin Laden during the 1980's.  I could go on.   And, I've been attacked on this board numerous times, but I think 9/11 was a very complex situation whose official story smells to high heaven.  I've never been one of those "get the Ayatollah and all of those A-Rabs" person [knowing of course the Persians are mostly not Arabs.].

Shalom / Salam / Peace,

Please do not confuse what counties run by men (or women) do as official policy with the true teachings of Islam, or any other faith.  I have said here many times that the most UNISLAMIC counties are the ones who profess to be Islamic countries.  I refuse to call Arabia Saudi Arabia, as it is the most unIslamic country of them all and is in direct contradiction (a Kingdom) to the teachings of the Qur'an.  And it is not only supposed Muslim countries with horrible human rights records.

With a few thousand crazy followers compared to almost 2 billion followers of Islam on the planet ... ISIS is hardly the norm.  Why would countless Muslims, including people in leadership rolls, be appalled at their antics.  There will always be followers of crazy messages.  That does not make it the norm.

There are more Muslims in other parts of the world than in the Middle East.  More and more each day in the West.  We are helping to keep the West 'free' and safe, I will add in this scary and horrific time.

2 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Hows this, you can go away, and SabreSpace gets to keep NS?

This made me laugh.  Thanks, but you guys and gals may need to through in a draft pick, or two.

[SwampD]

10 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

? You're a funny guy.  Hospitable, perhaps no so much.

 

Matthew 10

12 "And when ye come into an house, salute it."
13 "And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you."
14 "And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet."
15 "Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city."
 

Hmmm,... words I don't care about.

Again, you are here to preach, not discuss.

10 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

A theocracy is not the same as a religion

And it's even funnier when you that that this country was started by certain Christians who were fleeing persecution from different kinds of Christians.

[erickompositör72]

4 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Hmmm,... words I don't care about.

Again, you are here to preach, not discuss.

And it's even funnier when you that that this country was started by certain Christians who were fleeing persecution from different kinds of Christians.

Yeah, he's preaching to all of us. I stated my beliefs, and he literally said he's here to tell me there is more for me to find, and that he was once lost (implying I'm lost)

[PromoTheRobot]

 

[Sabres Fan in NS]

4 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

Yeah, he's preaching to all of us. I stated my beliefs, and he literally said he's here to tell me there is more for me to find, and that he was once lost (implying I'm lost)

I always have hope, as without hope all is lost.

I am not very hopeful in this particular case.

I really do feel badly for him and feel that he may be in for a rude awakening at some point.  That said, I could be wrong.

4 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

 

*her name was Rio*

Fantastic!!

[etiennep99]

8 minutes ago, erickompositör72 said:

Yeah, he's preaching to all of us. I stated my beliefs, and he literally said he's here to tell me there is more for me to find, and that he was once lost (implying I'm lost)

I also said that you may go your way in peace.   

You had said that you sought and didn't find. I said that you must REALLY WANT TO FIND IT.   Just look at what is happening now.  Seemingly everyone, including the "Christians" are either attacking me or leaving me undefended.  Were you ever willing to sacrifice like that, to have people HATE you for your belief in Jesus?   I'm not condemning you nor judging you. I'm just saying, there's a cost to pay.

[FogBat]

44 minutes ago, SwampD said:

Hows this, you can go away, and SabreSpace gets to keep NS?

???!!! That was brilliant!

He doesn't know how to play his cards right. Plus, I don't think he knows how to dialogue and get to know the other side better without compromising his convictions.

Nothing against NS, but I'd have to say that I wasn't using my better judgment in the past when I let Islamophobia get the better of me - and that led me to reject getting to better know my neighbor. By this attitude, I violated the second greatest commandment: love your neighbor as yourself.

[etiennep99]

30 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Shalom / Salam / Peace,

Please do not confuse what counties run by men (or women) do as official policy with the true teachings of Islam, or any other faith.  I have said here many times that the most UNISLAMIC counties are the ones who profess to be Islamic countries.  I refuse to call Arabia Saudi Arabia, as it is the most unIslamic country of them all and is in direct contradiction (a Kingdom) to the teachings of the Qur'an.  And it is not only supposed Muslim countries with horrible human rights records.

With a few thousand crazy followers compared to almost 2 billion followers of Islam on the planet ... ISIS is hardly the norm.  Why would countless Muslims, including people in leadership rolls, be appalled at their antics.  There will always be followers of crazy messages.  That does not make it the norm.

There are more Muslims in other parts of the world than in the Middle East.  More and more each day in the West.  We are helping to keep the West 'free' and safe, I will add in this scary and horrific time.

This made me laugh.  Thanks, but you guys and gals may need to through in a draft pick, or two.

Thank you for being forthcoming above about your beliefs regarding the Passion of Christ.   You confirmed what I said, and exactly what people were attacking me for.

Indonesia and Malaysia haven't been exactly panaceas for Christians either.  But, OK, let's say that your interpretation of the Quran is different.  You are one against  MILLIONS to BILLIONS of people.    Do you also believe in the Hadith?  What about Abrogation? Because according to Abrogation, your interpretation would be wrong.   I'm sure that there could be those in the Middle East who would consider you an apostate.  I'm not trying to target you and your beliefs.  You don't have to reply.  But this seems more like a discussion now.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

10 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

Thank you for being forthcoming above about your beliefs regarding the Passion of Christ.   You confirmed what I said, and exactly what people were attacking me for.

Indonesia and Malaysia haven't been exactly panaceas for Christians either.  But, OK, let's say that your interpretation of the Quran is different.  You are one against  MILLIONS to BILLIONS of people.    Do you also believe in the Hadith?  What about Abrogation? Because according to Abrogation, your interpretation would be wrong.   I'm sure that there could be those in the Middle East who would consider you an apostate.  I'm not trying to target you and your beliefs.  You don't have to reply.  But this seems more like a discussion now.

I will not address your nonsense ...

That said, I do not follow the hadith, only because I am not certain as to their authenticity.  The Qur'an I do follow as best I can.  Forget the Middle East there are Muslims right here in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada that would view me as misguided, at best, and an apostate, at worst.

I will say that this is progress, but not by much.

[etiennep99]

2 hours ago, Crosschecking said:

I accept your apology, and I apologize for my un-Christlike conduct toward you in the past.

Having said that, he said that his only mentor is Jesus. That is only partly true. Whoever teaches us their theological interpretation will greatly influence us. Someone has to be discipling him somehow at this time. You and I are both being discipled by different men. The scary part is that I know exactly where he's coming from. I've been there. Even when I was first introduced to Calvinism a few years into my pilgrimage, I was ignorant, cocky, and went "guns-a-blazin' ". Needless to say, I turned a lot of people off because of my myopic arrogance.

If anything, theology can be a dangerous weapon when it's in the wrong hands.

This is in reply to Crosschecking, not meant for others per se.

I don't play games. I don't try to chum up to people under false pretences: "25 Ways to Win People".   I don't believe in manipulating people. I try to be as open, honest, and direct as possible.

You are making a grave error.  NO person is discipling me.  As best as I can tell, the churches around me are weak and preach only milk in Rock Concert Atmospheres.

  "However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth;".    You are worried about turning people off. I'm worried about Quenching the Holy Ghost. 

I believe in addition by subtraction: weed out the pretenders to find the real contenders.

Jesus said that people cannot serve two masters: you're either a child of God or a child of the dark one.  People, deep inside, they know which team they are on, or at least which team they are leaning towards.   Frankly the reaction of this board has only increased my faith. The Bible comes alive: when you speak the truth about Jesus, people take sides pretty quickly.  Frankly, the Bible says that I should rejoice when people mistreat me.   The Bible also talks about how all of Jesus' disciples abandoned him at the cross.   Crosschecking, I know that you're trying to be nice, but did you check your cross in with the luggage?  Because you've said nothing to support me save to say that I'm misguided: like my quotation from Clarence Jordan.   Perhaps a little, "Hey, that is what the Bible says. He isn't speaking smack.  It might not be my style, but I stand with him as my brother.  I agree that Jesus is the only answer."   That would be nice.  Christians are supposed to be baptised and make a PUBLIC declaration of their faith.

[FogBat]

7 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

I also said that you may go your way in peace.   

You had said that you sought and didn't find. I said that you must REALLY WANT TO FIND IT.   Just look at what is happening now.  Seemingly everyone, including the "Christians" are either attacking me or leaving me undefended.  Were you ever willing to sacrifice like that, to have people HATE you for your belief in Jesus?   I'm not condemning you nor judging you. I'm just saying, there's a cost to pay.

I've been a believer for 31 years. There have been a lot of growing pains on my part. At the same time, they have also been blessings to me in retrospect. After justification, it's all been sanctification. Eventually, it will be glorification.

Having said that, please listen to what I'm about to say. You're making this all about you, not Christ. These guys probably know more about Christianity than you do - and possibly more than me. The other issue that goes alongside is that you are insulting their intelligence. It's all over this thread. You need to get over yourself.

I'm not saying these things to throw you under the bus. Frankly, you've done that to yourself. I'm actually trying to help you to avoid getting more eggs thrown in your face.

[dudacek]

Curious, does anyone know in what nations do Muslims face the most persecution?

Separately, I find that one learns more talking to the subject of their discussion than relying what they’ve been told by others.

Thanks to @New Scotland (NS) and @etiennep99 for giving more insight into your personal thought processes about your faith.

Edited April 13, 2020 by dudacek

[etiennep99]

5 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

I will not address your nonsense ...

That said, I do not follow the hadith, only because I am not certain as to their authenticity.  The Qur'an I do follow as best I can.  Forget the Middle East there are Muslims right here in Halifax, Nova Scotia, Canada that would view me as misguided, at best, and an apostate, at worst.

I will say that this is progress, but not by much.

Agreed. This is progress.  You came out swinging like a traditional Muslim.  You have corrected me and shown me that I was wrong in that assumption.   I'm glad that you're able to think for yourself and to choose your own path.  I would hope that we could have peace between us.

 

@ Dudaceck:  Thanks.   China immediately comes to mind regarding their heavy-handed subjection and persecution of the Uyghurs.

[FogBat]

3 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Curious, does anyone know in what nations do Muslims face the most persecution?

Separately, I find that one learns more talking to the subject of their discussion than relying what they’ve been told by others.

Thanks to @New Scotland (NS) and @etiennep99 for giving more insight into your personal thought processes about your faith.

China and Myanmar, SFAIK.

[etiennep99]

1 minute ago, Crosschecking said:

China and Myanmar, SFAIK.

I like how you put your abbreviations in all-caps. Old-school and much clearer. ?

[Sabres Fan in NS]

2 minutes ago, Crosschecking said:

China and Myanmar, SFAIK.

Bosnia ... Kosovo ... Palestine ... the former Soviet Union ...