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OT: The New Religion Thread.

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I’m not going to speak on religion, cuz I’m pretty sure I’ve seen just as much harm as good from it. Probably more good,... maybe,... I hope.

I’ll just say this. Thursday night, December 26, I had a full blown conversation with my dad (in me “head”, me being in Jersey and him being in WNY) saying it was okay for him to go. He was gone the next day. Then Monday night, I was in my studio tinkering. It was late. There is always the usual din of life that everyone hears all the time. Well, late late, I remember hearing a moment where everything just stopped. It was remarkable enough to where I paused and just said, huh, that’s something, then maybe a knowing sigh. It was real and I felt it. I awoke to the call telling me my sister had passed.

I don’t need books and heroes and history and misinterpretations and me being right and someone else being wrong, to know that we are all connected on a much deeper level than any of us are most likely capable of understanding.

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14 minutes ago, SwampD said:

I’m not going to speak on religion, cuz I’m pretty sure I’ve seen just as much harm as good from it. Probably more good,... maybe,... I hope.

I’ll just say this. Thursday night, December 26, I had a full blown conversation with my dad (in me “head”, me being in Jersey and him being in WNY) saying it was okay for him to go. He was gone the next day. Then Monday night, I was in my studio tinkering. It was late. There is always the usual din of life that everyone hears all the time. Well, late late, I remember hearing a moment where everything just stopped. It was remarkable enough to where I paused and just said, huh, that’s something, then maybe a knowing sigh. It was real and I felt it. I awoke to the call telling me my sister had passed.

I don’t need books and heroes and history and misinterpretations and me being right and someone else being wrong, to know that we are all connected on a much deeper level than any of us are most likely capable of understanding.

I'm on the same page. Personally, I don't believe it's some sort of "magic" or "supernatural occurrence;" rather, I believe it's just the way our universe works, which happens to be way more complex than our limited human minds can ever fully grasp.

Edited by erickompositör72

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58 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

And the thread is resurrected.

I'm hoping that etiennep99 sees that I've responded to some of his stuff and sees where I'm coming from. ATST, how he's being discipled and who's teaching him can have plenty of bearing on his views.

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28 minutes ago, SwampD said:

I’m not going to speak on religion, cuz I’m pretty sure I’ve seen just as much harm as good from it. Probably more good,... maybe,... I hope.

I’ll just say this. Thursday night, December 26, I had a full blown conversation with my dad (in me “head”, me being in Jersey and him being in WNY) saying it was okay for him to go. He was gone the next day. Then Monday night, I was in my studio tinkering. It was late. There is always the usual din of life that everyone hears all the time. Well, late late, I remember hearing a moment where everything just stopped. It was remarkable enough to where I paused and just said, huh, that’s something, then maybe a knowing sigh. It was real and I felt it. I awoke to the call telling me my sister had passed.

I remember when a dear friend of mine (and fellow believer) told me how he recalled the night when he lost his wife of 43 years back in 2006 (5 years to the day after 9/11). She'd had a massive stroke and was struggling to breathe on a ventilator. He left the hospital for the night since he couldn't stay awake and drove home from Rochester to Pavilion. About 10.45 that night, he felt like a door was slammed shut. 15 minutes later, he got the call from the hospital. They asked for him. He replied, "I already know."

I can't begin to imagine how hard it was for him to deal with losing his wife. I only have maybe the slightest idea. I'll never forget him telling me, "It just hurts." But he made it clear to me that if it wasn't for his walk with Christ, he would have done what a seriously depressed neighbor did: literally his brains out.

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3 hours ago, SwampD said:

I’m not going to speak on religion, cuz I’m pretty sure I’ve seen just as much harm as good from it. Probably more good,... maybe,... I hope.

I’ll just say this. Thursday night, December 26, I had a full blown conversation with my dad (in me “head”, me being in Jersey and him being in WNY) saying it was okay for him to go. He was gone the next day. Then Monday night, I was in my studio tinkering. It was late. There is always the usual din of life that everyone hears all the time. Well, late late, I remember hearing a moment where everything just stopped. It was remarkable enough to where I paused and just said, huh, that’s something, then maybe a knowing sigh. It was real and I felt it. I awoke to the call telling me my sister had passed.

I don’t need books and heroes and history and misinterpretations and me being right and someone else being wrong, to know that we are all connected on a much deeper level than any of us are most likely capable of understanding.

Again, sorry for your losses.

But glad to see that in your own way you see there is a spirituality to life that science won't "solve" in our lifetimes. (Hope that didn't come across as condescending; it was not meant to be. Don't believe it was, but wanted to make sure it wasn't.)  There's room for both.

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This reply is especially for "Crosschecking".

1. I have no clue what ATST means.

2. My mentor is Jesus.

3. I draw inspiration from numerous other sources:


"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."
-Neil Peart

#5: “To do harm is to do yourself harm. To do an injustice is to do yourself an injustice. It degrades you…You can also commit injustice by doing nothing.”
--Marcus Aurelius


“The people in the liquor traffic,” said the speaker, “simply want us to do nothing. That’s all the devil wants of the son of God—to be let alone. That is all that the criminal wants of the law—to be let alone. The sin of doing nothing is the deadliest of all the seven sins. It has been said that for evil men to accomplish their purpose it is only necessary that good men should do nothing.”
-Rev. Charles F. Aked


"By western standards he [Jesus] was a penniless tramp, at best a high minded hobo.  Most of us...would have been embarrassed to have had him as a guest in our fashionable homes, just as our kids would embarrass us. And most of us would have been ashamed to acknowledge him as our friend,  mostly on this money matter.  Now the most educated and successful amoung us would given him free lectures on getting ahold of himself, settling down in a good job,  raising a family, and other free pointers on conforming and adjusting to the organization, to the society.  Perhaps some of us would have condescended to have gone so far as to offer our help to him in contacting certain  influential leaders such as Caiaphas the High Priest, or Pilate the Governor  with the hope that we might get a him a good job and possibly into the Rotary Club.  We would have especially urged him to give up his messianic  dellusions, not to ruin himself and his future by taking such positive stands on controversial social issues.

You don't think that we would have given him lectures along those lines? You bet your life we would."
--Clarence Jordan


"Who would be so foolish as to light a lamp and then cover it over? Now he says if men are not that foolish, then God is not that foolish. God has lit you up so that you might shine....Jesus said to the  religious people of his day, 'you all are like graves which appear not and men walk over unawares.'  Now, let me translate what he said for you.
He said you religious folks...  you guys have been dead and buried so long that there's not even a marker where you were buried and not even  any more fresh dirt...There was a time when at least you had the capacity to raise a stink, but you've even lost that. And you make as much impact on the world as a corpse that has been dead and buried so long that there's not even any fresh dirt left. I sometimes wonder if that isn't about how effective we Christians are in this society of ours. The work of the salt is to be salt, not to be morons. The work of the light is to shine. Not to hide itself."
--Clarence Jordan


Acts: 4:18-20
--------------
And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach 
in the name of Jesus.
19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right 
in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard."

--

 

Matt: 10:32-33

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."
 

 

As far as I'm concerned personally: I will fight against Nazism, Communism, Totalitarianism, and by extension Islam. So, no, when a muslim slanders Christianity on Easter, I will not fail  to take a stand.   It's too bad none of the other Christians on this board are too timid to take a stand: making _me_ the bad guy.

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55 minutes ago, etiennep99 said:

 

As far as I'm concerned personally: I will fight against Nazism, Communism, Totalitarianism, and by extension Islam. So, no, when a muslim slanders Christianity on Easter, I will not fail  to take a stand.   It's too bad none of the other Christians on this board are too timid to take a stand: making _me_ the bad guy.

That's because we are here to have a discussion. You came to preach.

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25 minutes ago, ubkev said:

That'll be the one that does it.

It is too bad that an Extremist has to ruin it for everybody.  All the rest of us were respectful of each other.  When one does not have an open mind there is no hope for reasonable discussion.  I have been called worse than terrorist, believe it, or not.

An extremist is one who attacks another follower (in this case a Christian and I have to say that over the years @Crosschecking and I have had our disagreements, unfortunaltely not all of them in the politest fashion, which I regret.  He and I have matured over the years and I have always viewed him as a good man and a true believer and a Brother ...) for nicely calling the extremist out a little bit, we know this thread is dead.

I implore @Eleven not to lock it, but to delete it.

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14 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

It is too bad that an Extremist has to ruin it for everybody.  All the rest of us were respectful of each other.  When one does not have an open mind there is no hope for reasonable discussion.  I have been called worse than terrorist, believe it, or not.

An extremist is one who attacks another follower (in this case a Christian and I have to say that over the years @Crosschecking and I have had our disagreements, unfortunaltely not all of them in the politest fashion, which I regret.  He and I have matured over the years and I have always viewed him as a good man and a true believer and a Brother ...) for nicely calling the extremist out a little bit, we know this thread is dead.

I implore @Eleven not to lock it, but to delete it.

Every way of man is right in his own eyes. 

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14 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

It is too bad that an Extremist has to ruin it for everybody.  All the rest of us were respectful of each other.  When one does not have an open mind there is no hope for reasonable discussion.  I have been called worse than terrorist, believe it, or not.

An extremist is one who attacks another follower (in this case a Christian and I have to say that over the years @Crosschecking and I have had our disagreements, unfortunaltely not all of them in the politest fashion, which I regret.  He and I have matured over the years and I have always viewed him as a good man and a true believer and a Brother ...) for nicely calling the extremist out a little bit, we know this thread is dead.

I implore @Eleven not to lock it, but to delete it.

No. One idiot shouldn't prevent others from being able to have respectful discussion. If people don't respond to him he'll go away. 

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Wh

1 hour ago, etiennep99 said:

This reply is especially for "Crosschecking".

1. I have no clue what ATST means.

2. My mentor is Jesus.

3. I draw inspiration from numerous other sources:


"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice."
-Neil Peart

#5: “To do harm is to do yourself harm. To do an injustice is to do yourself an injustice. It degrades you…You can also commit injustice by doing nothing.”
--Marcus Aurelius


“The people in the liquor traffic,” said the speaker, “simply want us to do nothing. That’s all the devil wants of the son of God—to be let alone. That is all that the criminal wants of the law—to be let alone. The sin of doing nothing is the deadliest of all the seven sins. It has been said that for evil men to accomplish their purpose it is only necessary that good men should do nothing.”
-Rev. Charles F. Aked


"By western standards he [Jesus] was a penniless tramp, at best a high minded hobo.  Most of us...would have been embarrassed to have had him as a guest in our fashionable homes, just as our kids would embarrass us. And most of us would have been ashamed to acknowledge him as our friend,  mostly on this money matter.  Now the most educated and successful amoung us would given him free lectures on getting ahold of himself, settling down in a good job,  raising a family, and other free pointers on conforming and adjusting to the organization, to the society.  Perhaps some of us would have condescended to have gone so far as to offer our help to him in contacting certain  influential leaders such as Caiaphas the High Priest, or Pilate the Governor  with the hope that we might get a him a good job and possibly into the Rotary Club.  We would have especially urged him to give up his messianic  dellusions, not to ruin himself and his future by taking such positive stands on controversial social issues.

You don't think that we would have given him lectures along those lines? You bet your life we would."
--Clarence Jordan


"Who would be so foolish as to light a lamp and then cover it over? Now he says if men are not that foolish, then God is not that foolish. God has lit you up so that you might shine....Jesus said to the  religious people of his day, 'you all are like graves which appear not and men walk over unawares.'  Now, let me translate what he said for you.
He said you religious folks...  you guys have been dead and buried so long that there's not even a marker where you were buried and not even  any more fresh dirt...There was a time when at least you had the capacity to raise a stink, but you've even lost that. And you make as much impact on the world as a corpse that has been dead and buried so long that there's not even any fresh dirt left. I sometimes wonder if that isn't about how effective we Christians are in this society of ours. The work of the salt is to be salt, not to be morons. The work of the light is to shine. Not to hide itself."
--Clarence Jordan


Acts: 4:18-20
--------------
And they called them, and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach 
in the name of Jesus.
19 But Peter and John answered and said unto them, Whether it be right 
in the sight of God to hearken unto you more than unto God, judge ye.
20 For we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard."

--

 

Matt: 10:32-33

"Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven."
 

 

As far as I'm concerned personally: I will fight against Nazism, Communism, Totalitarianism, and by extension Islam. So, no, when a muslim slanders Christianity on Easter, I will not fail  to take a stand.   It's too bad none of the other Christians on this board are too timid to take a stand: making _me_ the bad guy.

Hoo boy. That was a doozie to read! It makes me wonder if you've been influenced by controversial IFB preacher Steven Anderson out of the Phoenix metro area.

ATST means At The Same Time. FYI, we tend to use a lot of acronyms around here to shorten things up while getting the point across. Otherwise, it becomes TLDR. (Look that one up on Google)

I've heard of quite a few preachers in my time, but not the ones you quoted. (Charles Aked, Clarence Jordan) Mr. Aked sounds like he was greatly influenced by Billy Sunday from that quote.

But for you to say that people like me are too timid, that was both ignorant and insulting. You don't appear to have a clue what kind of people you're dealing with here. This is clearly a mixed group. Not everyone is going to agree with you. Trust me: I learned this the hard way. They know where I stand. They can all tell you this. As for being insulted, I frankly don't care if you apologize to me or not; but you owe it to the rest of the forum to apologize to them for being overbearing and obnoxious.

 

40 minutes ago, ubkev said:

That'll be the one that does it.  

I sure hope so.

15 minutes ago, SwampD said:

That's because we are here to have a discussion. You came to preach.

I couldn't agree more. This is SabreSpace, not Big Tent Revival.

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4 minutes ago, ubkev said:

Every way of man is right in his own eyes. 

This is essentially true, but very few are out there preaching that you better come with me, or else.  Most religions teach that the we are to respect the others' views andtreat them with respect.  The only ones who really do the hard selling are the Evangelical Christians, from my experience.

2 minutes ago, Hank said:

No. One idiot shouldn't prevent others from being able to have respectful discussion. If people don't respond to him he'll go away. 

I really wish this were the case, but I have my doubts, especially if I continue to participate in this discussion.  His hatred of Islam and, therefore, me knows no bounds.

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Damn, isn't humility one of the main teachings in many religions? Politics and religion are just topics that invoke some terrible responses, and therefore show an individuals true colors. I think we've seen a lack of humility, a boatload of arrogance, a touch of narcissism and a human that thinks they call the shots. 

Judgement time will come (if you believe in that kinda thing) 

 

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12 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

This is essentially true, but very few are out there preaching that you better come with me, or else.  Most religions teach that the we are to respect the others' views andtreat them with respect.  The only ones who really do the hard selling are the Evangelical Christians, from my experience.

I really wish this were the case, but I have my doubts, especially if I continue to participate in this discussion.  His hatred of Islam and, therefore, me knows no bounds.

The good news is you have people of all faiths (and “faithless”) defending and supporting you. When he attacks your beliefs, he attacks us all and I think that has so far been demonstrated. Deleting this thread will do nothing to change his beliefs. Not saying leaving it open will, but it has a greater chance than deleting it does. 

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18 minutes ago, Crosschecking said:

Wh

Hoo boy. That was a doozie to read! It makes me wonder if you've been influenced by controversial IFB preacher Steven Anderson out of the Phoenix metro area.

ATST means At The Same Time. FYI, we tend to use a lot of acronyms around here to shorten things up while getting the point across. Otherwise, it becomes TLDR. (Look that one up on Google)

I've heard of quite a few preachers in my time, but not the ones you quoted. (Charles Aked, Clarence Jordan) Mr. Aked sounds like he was greatly influenced by Billy Sunday from that quote.

But for you to say that people like me are too timid, that was both ignorant and insulting. You don't appear to have a clue what kind of people you're dealing with here. This is clearly a mixed group. Not everyone is going to agree with you. Trust me: I learned this the hard way. They know where I stand. They can all tell you this. As for being insulted, I frankly don't care if you apologize to me or not; but you owe it to the rest of the forum to apologize to them for being overbearing and obnoxious.

 

I sure hope so.

I couldn't agree more. This is SabreSpace, not Big Tent Revival.

Would you like fries with that?

Sorry if you were offended.  It was meant as a perfect reply to your condescending advice to get with the program and shut up.

Religious discussion isn't the stuff of milquetoast and tea.  It seems like I'm the one trying to discuss and the rest are throwing rocks.  I'm quoting Marcus Aurelius. Why isn't the Stoic quoting him?    You guys watch hockey players hit, slash, and fight. Many of you cheer it.  But if a person says something of substance, people get all offended.

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I guess this is what the ignore function was created for, right?

I hope this thread stays open. I'm really curious to learn more about everyone's perspective.

 

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Perhaps this option is just not possible to consider....

Just like there is an Oval Office Club thread, maybe there should be a Religion Talk Club thread. Why is there an Oval Office Club thread? Because people have strong opinions and express them to varying degrees. Well religion discussion is kinda in the same boat with many.

Just a thought ...

 

I am seeing all "sides" using words that can be taken wrong or "offensive" to varying degrees. And then claim they didn't mean to offend anyone. It's an interesting exercise in choice of words and the meaning behind them. There's a reason other forums don't allow politics or religion talk, or distinctly separate it from the main list of threads.

 

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5 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

Perhaps this option is just not possible to consider....

Just like there is an Oval Office Club thread, maybe there should be a Religion Talk Club thread. Why is there an Oval Office Club thread? Because people have strong opinions and express them to varying degrees. Well religion discussion is kinda in the same boat with many.

Just a thought ...

 

I am seeing all "sides" using words that can be taken wrong or "offensive" to varying degrees. And then claim they didn't mean to offend anyone. It's an interesting exercise in choice of words and the meaning behind them. There's a reason other forums don't allow politics or religion talk, or distinctly separate it from the main list of threads.

 

I was thinking the same thing. You beat me to it. 👍

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30 minutes ago, #freejame said:

The good news is you have people of all faiths (and “faithless”) defending and supporting you. When he attacks your beliefs, he attacks us all and I think that has so far been demonstrated. Deleting this thread will do nothing to change his beliefs. Not saying leaving it open will, but it has a greater chance than deleting it does. 

And I thank you all for that support.  I also agree that attacks by anyone on anyone are attacks on the whole.

The goal should not be to change his beliefs since we then are stooping to preaching.  The goal should be to engage in a dialogue that will lead to a more open attitude and a feeling of acceptance of other alternatives beliefs, not only in religion, but in everything.

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1 hour ago, etiennep99 said:

Would you like fries with that?

Sorry if you were offended.  It was meant as a perfect reply to your condescending advice to get with the program and shut up.

Religious discussion isn't the stuff of milquetoast and tea.  It seems like I'm the one trying to discuss and the rest are throwing rocks.  I'm quoting Marcus Aurelius. Why isn't the Stoic quoting him?    You guys watch hockey players hit, slash, and fight. Many of you cheer it.  But if a person says something of substance, people get all offended.

First of all, I had no intention of being condescending toward you. I apologize if it came across that way, but it was clearly not my intent. I've known these guys for quite some time. I have a clue what to expect from them. The purpose of this thread was to discuss aspects of different religions with mutual respect while maybe even agreeing to disagree and leaving things at that. Instead, you came in here and started thumping your Bible very hard on all of us. As I've said, I know exactly where you're coming from. Ask the admin, the mods, and the forum veterans. They can all tell you what kind of obnoxious PITA I was in the past.

I believe very strongly in being as balanced as possible. I wasn't always like that. I try to stay as informed as much as possible, so that way I know where the other side is coming from. Also, I don't see myself as being "Stoic". There are times where I will take a stand and fight - which is something you should know from Ecclesiastes 3. I have zero patience with false teachers who claim to be "Christian", and I have no qualms with calling them out. (The Pirate Christian Radio podcast does this as well.) In a nutshell, some fights are not worth picking.

Lest I forget, I accept your apology.

Edited by Crosschecking
addendum

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54 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

This is essentially true, but very few are out there preaching that you better come with me, or else.  Most religions teach that the we are to respect the others' views andtreat them with respect.  The only ones who really do the hard selling are the Evangelical Christians, from my experience.

I really wish this were the case, but I have my doubts, especially if I continue to participate in this discussion.  His hatred of Islam and, therefore, me knows no bounds.

1, if there's anything I've learned in recent years, it's that many evangelicals have zeal, passion, AND ignorance. I have no problem with being a witness for Christ. But, any mission field requires getting to know the culture - right down to nuances, customs, and courtesies (not to mention languages). Even our own backyard is no exception to this! This is why I have taken the time to get to know the Sikhs that have come into the trucking industry. They have a very fascinating culture and belief system. And, of course, they know a thing or two about Christianity and Christians in general.

As I just said in my reply to the other guy, I strive to be as balanced as possible. His posts on here bear a tragic resemblance to mowing everyone down with a machine gun.

2, please understand that not every Christian is overbearing like this. Here is a formal, moderated debate between a Christian textual critic scholar and a Muslim scholar:

 

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23 hours ago, etiennep99 said:

At first blush the comparison might seem harsh, but only to those who are ignorant of History.  Hitler killed millions.  Muslims have killed millions of Jews and Christians.

I quote the Quran:

And when the forbidden months have passed, kill the idolaters wherever you find them and take them prisoners, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakat, then leave their way free. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.
 

I can't believe that I am engaging you, but if you are going to quote the Qur'an you must also include the histrorical reference and the reason for the revelation.

At that time the Muslims were constantly being attacked, not by Chritians and Jews, but by the idolater Arabs of Arabia.  The Muslims had very good relationships with Christians and Jews.  They were *Brothers and Sisters* and *the people of The Book* as described in the Qur'an.  Up until this time the Muslims were taught by Muhammad (PBUH) to not fight back and to turn the other check, as revelated earlier in the Qur'an.  The ayat that you quote above is in reply to a direct request, from Muhammad (PBUH), for God to reveal what to do, as the Muslims were starting to ask for permission to fight back.  In answer to the prayer of Muhammad (PBUH) God revealed the ayat the you quoted above.  The basic meaning is yes you can fight back, but only of attacked and the attacker persists.  If they stop fighting you must stop and you must not over do it in fighting.

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9 minutes ago, Crosschecking said:

1, if there's anything I've learned in recent years, it's that many evangelicals have zeal, passion, AND ignorance. I have no problem with being a witness for Christ. But, any mission field requires getting to know the culture - right down to nuances, customs, and courtesies (not to mention languages). Even our own backyard is no exception to this! This is why I have taken the time to get to know the Sikhs that have come into the trucking industry. They have a very fascinating culture and belief system. And, of course, they know a thing or two about Christianity and Christians in general.

As I just said in my reply to the other guy, I strive to be as balanced as possible. His posts on here bear a tragic resemblance to mowing everyone down with a machine gun.

2, please understand that not every Christian is overbearing like this. Here is a formal, moderated debate between a Christian textual critic scholar and a Muslim scholar:

 

Thank you, my friend.  I have stated that you and I have a history here, some of which I am not proud of.  I do appologize for any narrowminded and heated discussion we have had in the past.  Both of us have grown since that time.  I do appreciate that there are very few Christians, or Muslims, or Jews or ... that preach that you better be one of us, or else.  Thank you for posting the video.

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17 minutes ago, New Scotland (NS) said:

Thank you, my friend.  I have stated that you and I have a history here, some of which I am not proud of.  I do appologize for any narrowminded and heated discussion we have had in the past.  Both of us have grown since that time.  I do appreciate that there are very few Christians, or Muslims, or Jews or ... that preach that you better be one of us, or else.  Thank you for posting the video.

I accept your apology, and I apologize for my un-Christlike conduct toward you in the past.

Having said that, he said that his only mentor is Jesus. That is only partly true. Whoever teaches us their theological interpretation will greatly influence us. Someone has to be discipling him somehow at this time. You and I are both being discipled by different men. The scary part is that I know exactly where he's coming from. I've been there. Even when I was first introduced to Calvinism a few years into my pilgrimage, I was ignorant, cocky, and went "guns-a-blazin' ". Needless to say, I turned a lot of people off because of my myopic arrogance.

If anything, theology can be a dangerous weapon when it's in the wrong hands.

Edited by Crosschecking
addendum
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