Rumor: About Botterill’s Future Being in Doubt

[dudacek]

It's a little early but I feel pretty comfortable grading a few more Botterill decisions.

1) Simmonds for a 5th in order to help the team go on a run and maybe sell him on Buffalo next year. The team has yet to win a game, Simmonds has yet to have an impact and so far most of us are wondering why we would want to sign him for next year. Fail

2) Keeping UFA Vesey in the hopes he can help us down the stretch and perhaps re-sign him. Vesey was a healthy scratch the last game. We paid a 3rd for a player who will end up giving us about 10 goals as essentially a placeholder in another meaningless season. Whether he walks, or we re-sign him, fail.

3) Trading for Michael Frolik and holding on to him past the deadline. Frolik has yet to score on a goalie, can't stay in the lineup, has failed to help elevate our PK out of dead last in the entire NHL and will not/should not be offered a contract this summer. He cost us Marco Scandella, who Montreal flipped 6 weeks later for a 2nd and a 4th. To add injury to insult, his salary puts us over the cap this year, meaning we will be penalized on next year's cap. Terrible fail.

4) Keeping Larry and Zemgus at the deadline in the hopes that they can help us make a playoff run and perhaps consider re-signing in the summer. No playoff run, just another March collapse that should convince this pair of UFAs that it is time to stop beating their heads against a wall and go somewhere they can win. Fail.

For those keeping score, the above effectively adds up to sacrificing: a 2nd, a 3rd, a 4th, a 5th, and the potential trade returns of Larry and Z — let's just call it almost an entire draft — for the net return of another wasted season and a few million less to play with on next year's cap.

That's not asset management. It's simply embarrassing.

[Doohickie]

On 3/4/2020 at 7:14 PM, darksabre said:

But I like Krueger. 

Why? He hasn't shown us anything. 

[Doohickie]

On 3/4/2020 at 8:01 PM, dudacek said:

There is some value in stability. Just fix what needs to be fixed.

So keep the good players. Ditch the coach and GM.

[triumph_communes]

3 hours ago, dudacek said:

It's a little early but I feel pretty comfortable grading a few more Botterill decisions.

1) Simmonds for a 5th in order to help the team go on a run and maybe sell him on Buffalo next year. The team has yet to win a game, Simmonds has yet to have an impact and so far most of us are wondering why we would want to sign him for next year. Fail

2) Keeping UFA Vesey in the hopes he can help us down the stretch and perhaps re-sign him. Vesey was a healthy scratch the last game. We paid a 3rd for a player who will end up giving us about 10 goals as essentially a placeholder in another meaningless season. Whether he walks, or we re-sign him, fail.

3) Trading for Michael Frolik and holding on to him past the deadline. Frolik has yet to score on a goalie, can't stay in the lineup, has failed to help elevate our PK out of dead last in the entire NHL and will not/should not be offered a contract this summer. He cost us Marco Scandella, who Montreal flipped 6 weeks later for a 2nd and a 4th. To add injury to insult, his salary puts us over the cap this year, meaning we will be penalized on next year's cap. Terrible fail.

4) Keeping Larry and Zemgus at the deadline in the hopes that they can help us make a playoff run and perhaps consider re-signing in the summer. No playoff run, just another March collapse that should convince this pair of UFAs that it is time to stop beating their heads against a wall and go somewhere they can win. Fail.

For those keeping score, the above effectively adds up to sacrificing: a 2nd, a 3rd, a 4th, a 5th, and the potential trade returns of Larry and Z — let's just call it almost an entire draft — for the net return of another wasted season and a few million less to play with on next year's cap.

That's not asset management. It's simply embarrassing.

Ditching Larry and Girgensons is worth nothing less than a first. Last thing the team needs is to give either player a taste of another organization. May be able to trick them to stay

[darksabre]

4 hours ago, Doohickie said:

Why? He hasn't shown us anything. 

I think he's improved the team's consistency a bit. They've done a better job this season of stringing wins together. Their defensive play is also improved.

Unfortunately they're still streaky and that's mostly due to a lack of offensive talent.

Plus, Jack likes him.

Edited March 9, 2020 by darksabre

[PASabreFan]

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

It's a little early but I feel pretty comfortable grading a few more Botterill decisions.

1) Simmonds for a 5th in order to help the team go on a run and maybe sell him on Buffalo next year. The team has yet to win a game, Simmonds has yet to have an impact and so far most of us are wondering why we would want to sign him for next year. Fail

2) Keeping UFA Vesey in the hopes he can help us down the stretch and perhaps re-sign him. Vesey was a healthy scratch the last game. We paid a 3rd for a player who will end up giving us about 10 goals as essentially a placeholder in another meaningless season. Whether he walks, or we re-sign him, fail.

3) Trading for Michael Frolik and holding on to him past the deadline. Frolik has yet to score on a goalie, can't stay in the lineup, has failed to help elevate our PK out of dead last in the entire NHL and will not/should not be offered a contract this summer. He cost us Marco Scandella, who Montreal flipped 6 weeks later for a 2nd and a 4th. To add injury to insult, his salary puts us over the cap this year, meaning we will be penalized on next year's cap. Terrible fail.

4) Keeping Larry and Zemgus at the deadline in the hopes that they can help us make a playoff run and perhaps consider re-signing in the summer. No playoff run, just another March collapse that should convince this pair of UFAs that it is time to stop beating their heads against a wall and go somewhere they can win. Fail.

For those keeping score, the above effectively adds up to sacrificing: a 2nd, a 3rd, a 4th, a 5th, and the potential trade returns of Larry and Z — let's just call it almost an entire draft — for the net return of another wasted season and a few million less to play with on next year's cap.

That's not asset management. It's simply embarrassing.

Tell us how you really feel. Don't hold back.

[dudacek]

37 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Tell us how you really feel. Don't hold back.

Damn, one would hope that an esteemed literarian like yourself would recognize the post to be naught but a dispassionate elucidation of the efficacy of select recent Botterill moves. ?

Edited March 9, 2020 by dudacek

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, darksabre said:

I think he's improved the team's consistency a bit. They've done a better job this season of stringing wins together. Their defensive play is also improved.

Unfortunately they're still streaky and that's mostly due to a lack of offensive talent.

Plus, Jack likes him.

If they fire JBot, my feeling is that the new GM can decide which of his underlings he wants to keep and which he wants to replace.  If it means RFK is gone I'm okay with that; my general impression of him is not great.  But if the GM wants to keep him, so it goes.  The chemistry with Jack and the rest of the team may be a prime consideration there in terms of providing some level of stability.

But personally I think Krueger isn't a very good coach.

[Scottysabres]

Is he gone yet?

[darksabre]

23 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

If they fire JBot, my feeling is that the new GM can decide which of his underlings he wants to keep and which he wants to replace.  If it means RFK is gone I'm okay with that; my general impression of him is not great.  But if the GM wants to keep him, so it goes.  The chemistry with Jack and the rest of the team may be a prime consideration there in terms of providing some level of stability.

But personally I think Krueger isn't a very good coach.

There are certainly areas where I think he/his staff have underperformed. The power play needed to be this team's strength (given the roster) and that didn't happen, which certainly contributes to their position in the standings. His abuse of Colin Miller is another thing I haven't been happy with.

He wont be back if Botterill is fired, since that's not really how things work. But I think he's done an okay job.

Someone else could probably do just as well. Or better. Or worse. *shrug*

[dudacek]

I like Ralph and think he deserves better than to pay for the mistakes of his boss after just one season for the second time.

But if the GM has a vision and a coach who is a better fit, so be it.

[bunomatic]

8 hours ago, dudacek said:

Damn, one would hope that an esteemed literarian like yourself would recognize the post to be naught but a dispassionate elucidation of the efficacy of select recent Botterill moves. ?

 

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by bunomatic

[Pimlach]

20 hours ago, dudacek said:

It's a little early but I feel pretty comfortable grading a few more Botterill decisions.

1) Simmonds for a 5th in order to help the team go on a run and maybe sell him on Buffalo next year. The team has yet to win a game, Simmonds has yet to have an impact and so far most of us are wondering why we would want to sign him for next year. Fail

2) Keeping UFA Vesey in the hopes he can help us down the stretch and perhaps re-sign him. Vesey was a healthy scratch the last game. We paid a 3rd for a player who will end up giving us about 10 goals as essentially a placeholder in another meaningless season. Whether he walks, or we re-sign him, fail.

3) Trading for Michael Frolik and holding on to him past the deadline. Frolik has yet to score on a goalie, can't stay in the lineup, has failed to help elevate our PK out of dead last in the entire NHL and will not/should not be offered a contract this summer. He cost us Marco Scandella, who Montreal flipped 6 weeks later for a 2nd and a 4th. To add injury to insult, his salary puts us over the cap this year, meaning we will be penalized on next year's cap. Terrible fail.

4) Keeping Larry and Zemgus at the deadline in the hopes that they can help us make a playoff run and perhaps consider re-signing in the summer. No playoff run, just another March collapse that should convince this pair of UFAs that it is time to stop beating their heads against a wall and go somewhere they can win. Fail.

For those keeping score, the above effectively adds up to sacrificing: a 2nd, a 3rd, a 4th, a 5th, and the potential trade returns of Larry and Z — let's just call it almost an entire draft — for the net return of another wasted season and a few million less to play with on next year's cap.

That's not asset management. It's simply embarrassing.

Indeed. To be fair Kahun looks like a better player than Sheary and ERod.  
 

I liked the trading to win now mentality for a change. If we only had Linus and a strong #2.  Wins versus Avs and Vegas were needed. 
 

Frolik was a major whiff that was weeks in the making. Meanwhile Scandella has been very solid for the Blues.  
 

For next year, to change the attitude and look of this team we need to let most of the bottom 6 go - Frolik, Vessey, Sobotka, Okposso at a minimum  

We need bigger, stronger, and faster players. 
 

 

Edited March 10, 2020 by Pimlach

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

For next year, to change the attitude and look of this team we need to let most of the bottom 6 go - Frolik, Vessey, Sobotka, Okposso at a minimum  

Okie isn't going anywhere.  I don't lose Vesey for the sake of losing Vesey; he's turning into a decent player.  But I happily sacrifice him for an upgrade.

[matter2003]

23 hours ago, dudacek said:

It's a little early but I feel pretty comfortable grading a few more Botterill decisions.

1) Simmonds for a 5th in order to help the team go on a run and maybe sell him on Buffalo next year. The team has yet to win a game, Simmonds has yet to have an impact and so far most of us are wondering why we would want to sign him for next year. Fail

2) Keeping UFA Vesey in the hopes he can help us down the stretch and perhaps re-sign him. Vesey was a healthy scratch the last game. We paid a 3rd for a player who will end up giving us about 10 goals as essentially a placeholder in another meaningless season. Whether he walks, or we re-sign him, fail.

3) Trading for Michael Frolik and holding on to him past the deadline. Frolik has yet to score on a goalie, can't stay in the lineup, has failed to help elevate our PK out of dead last in the entire NHL and will not/should not be offered a contract this summer. He cost us Marco Scandella, who Montreal flipped 6 weeks later for a 2nd and a 4th. To add injury to insult, his salary puts us over the cap this year, meaning we will be penalized on next year's cap. Terrible fail.

4) Keeping Larry and Zemgus at the deadline in the hopes that they can help us make a playoff run and perhaps consider re-signing in the summer. No playoff run, just another March collapse that should convince this pair of UFAs that it is time to stop beating their heads against a wall and go somewhere they can win. Fail.

For those keeping score, the above effectively adds up to sacrificing: a 2nd, a 3rd, a 4th, a 5th, and the potential trade returns of Larry and Z — let's just call it almost an entire draft — for the net return of another wasted season and a few million less to play with on next year's cap.

That's not asset management. It's simply embarrassing.

Who cares about 5th and 6th round picks that we would have gotten for pending UFA's.  They amount to nothing in the NHL in 99% of cases...might as well be looking for a needle in the haystack with them. Tired of this team always running for the hills and dumping players.  Maybe a team that acts like it actually is trying to win will inspire some confidence ion the players for once that the organization is trying to actually win games and not just accumulate meaningless mid late round picks.

[Curt]

2 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

Who cares about 5th and 6th round picks that we would have gotten for pending UFA's.  They amount to nothing in the NHL in 99% of cases...might as well be looking for a needle in the haystack with them. Tired of this team always running for the hills and dumping players.  Maybe a team that acts like it actually is trying to win will inspire some confidence ion the players for once that the organization is trying to actually win games and not just accumulate meaningless mid late round picks.

That’s a nice thought, but after making moves to inspire confidence they proceeded to lose 6 straight anyway, so.........

[matter2003]

26 minutes ago, Curt said:

That’s a nice thought, but after making moves to inspire confidence they proceeded to lose 6 straight anyway, so.........

Didn't help that it coincided with Eichel being hurt and his longest point drought as a professional player...

[nfreeman]

From Chad at DBTB today:

 

Quote

 

As I tweeted last week, my understanding from conversations I’ve had is that it’s more likely than not that we will see a change at general manager at the end of the season.

Nothing has been 100% decided to this point, but internal expectations have not been met and it’s likely it’ll result in a change at the top of the hockey department.

 

https://www.diebytheblade.com/2020/3/10/21172017/mailbag-part-1-buffalo-sabres-management-jason-botterill-ralph-krueger-kim-pegula

 

[matter2003]

 

On 3/9/2020 at 10:19 AM, dudacek said:

It's a little early but I feel pretty comfortable grading a few more Botterill decisions.

1) Simmonds for a 5th in order to help the team go on a run and maybe sell him on Buffalo next year. The team has yet to win a game, Simmonds has yet to have an impact and so far most of us are wondering why we would want to sign him for next year. Fail

2) Keeping UFA Vesey in the hopes he can help us down the stretch and perhaps re-sign him. Vesey was a healthy scratch the last game. We paid a 3rd for a player who will end up giving us about 10 goals as essentially a placeholder in another meaningless season. Whether he walks, or we re-sign him, fail.

3) Trading for Michael Frolik and holding on to him past the deadline. Frolik has yet to score on a goalie, can't stay in the lineup, has failed to help elevate our PK out of dead last in the entire NHL and will not/should not be offered a contract this summer. He cost us Marco Scandella, who Montreal flipped 6 weeks later for a 2nd and a 4th. To add injury to insult, his salary puts us over the cap this year, meaning we will be penalized on next year's cap. Terrible fail.

4) Keeping Larry and Zemgus at the deadline in the hopes that they can help us make a playoff run and perhaps consider re-signing in the summer. No playoff run, just another March collapse that should convince this pair of UFAs that it is time to stop beating their heads against a wall and go somewhere they can win. Fail.

For those keeping score, the above effectively adds up to sacrificing: a 2nd, a 3rd, a 4th, a 5th, and the potential trade returns of Larry and Z — let's just call it almost an entire draft — for the net return of another wasted season and a few million less to play with on next year's cap.

That's not asset management. It's simply embarrassing.

Convenient you left out the Kahun trade which is showing signs of potentially being a very good one for him...

[Randall Flagg]

1 minute ago, matter2003 said:

 

Convenient you left out the Kahun trade which is showing signs of potentially being a very good one for him...

An additional solid move on top of a mountain of incompetence does not lessen the worry that the mountain of incompetence provides. 

[matter2003]

2 minutes ago, Randall Flagg said:

An additional solid move on top of a mountain of incompetence does not lessen the worry that the mountain of incompetence provides. 

I am not as down on some of the moves as others I guess...I thought Jokiharju for Nylander should have gotten him arrested for grand larceny.

Edited March 10, 2020 by matter2003

[Randall Flagg]

2 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

I am not as down on some of the moves as others I guess...I thought Jokiharju for Nylander should have gotten him arrested for grand larceny.

But the asset management laid out in order by dudacek is all connected, and paints a scary picture. Other moves are irrelevant to the worries that series of moves inspires. I love plenty of Jason's moves, including the Eichel contract, Skinner trade, Kahun trade, Joki trade, and Miller trade (and the move that brought Scandella here). Still, the series of moves pertaining to cap space and asset management laid out by dudacek is unforgivable.

[triumph_communes]

1 minute ago, Randall Flagg said:

But the asset management laid out in order by dudacek is all connected, and paints a scary picture. Other moves are irrelevant to the worries that series of moves inspires. I love plenty of Jason's moves, including the Eichel contract, Skinner trade, Kahun trade, Joki trade, and Miller trade (and the move that brought Scandella here). Still, the series of moves pertaining to cap space and asset management laid out by dudacek is unforgivable.

The trades you mentioned, plus Montour, are all the trades Botterill has done to improve the team.

The other trades for cap dumps is what he did just to fill the void in the roster with marginal NHL players as opposed to non-NHL players that were available via FA.  There simply weren't any players in FA over the last few seasons that didn't take hometown discounts or didn't sign absurd contracts that would have us in a bad cap situation starting next season.  Find me replacement UFA players who signed elsewhere over the last three seasons and construct me a better roster than we had.   All of his 'bad cap' moves end this season.  Blame Murray for emptying the cupboards, not Botterill for not working voodoo magic via trades.  I get it, ya'll hate the ROR trade, but the rest of Botterill's work is a smart, long-term plan I think ya'll just don't have the patience for.  Building from the back-end out and filling up the prospect pools first.  Oh, and we have our firsts for every year going forward.

[nucci]

6 minutes ago, triumph_communes said:

The trades you mentioned, plus Montour, are all the trades Botterill has done to improve the team.

The other trades for cap dumps is what he did just to fill the void in the roster with marginal NHL players as opposed to non-NHL players that were available via FA.  There simply weren't any players in FA over the last few seasons that didn't take hometown discounts or didn't sign absurd contracts that would have us in a bad cap situation starting next season.  Find me replacement UFA players who signed elsewhere over the last three seasons and construct me a better roster than we had.   All of his 'bad cap' moves end this season.  Blame Murray for emptying the cupboards, not Botterill for not working voodoo magic via trades.  I get it, ya'll hate the ROR trade, but the rest of Botterill's work is a smart, long-term plan I think ya'll just don't have the patience for.  Building from the back-end out and filling up the prospect pools first.  Oh, and we have our firsts for every year going forward.

don't say we don't have patience, ya'll...we've been putting up with this crap for years...your constant defense of Botterill is interesting.....still a bottom team...he should have improved this team by now with the time he has had

[Billznut]

1 minute ago, nucci said:

don't say we don't have patience, ya'll...we've been putting up with this crap for years...your constant defense of Botterill is interesting.....still a bottom team...he should have improved this team by now with the time he has had

Exactly. Fans needing patience and the ill conceived theory that Sabres fans not being “good” fans has anything to do with the current state of this sorry franchise the past 9 years are two topics that get brought up just a little too often around here. Fans have every right to be pissed off and question EVERY single thing this franchise, ownership and management does.