Risto said it's time for him to go?

[TrueBlueGED]

21 minutes ago, Taro T said:

I'd expect Murray would've given more to make sure that deal happened.  Can't prove it; but fully believe it.

He also may have just extended Kane and not had the money to add Skinner in the first place. 

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, Randall Flagg said:

Though I give GMJB full credit for the Skinner acquisition and re-signing, it is worth noting that Skinner's choosing his location dramatically reduced the return Carolina was likely to get. He more or less asked to come here

I think any Buffalo GM in 2018, of any competence level, would have made roughly the same trade

But it was the right move and he did it so he gets the GM points 

He was also a pending UFA, so in terms of trade value, he officially only acquired one season of Skinner. It's still a very good trade as his time here aided in the recruitment process, but it's not like the contract itself is stellar, and it may have been available even without the original trade. 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Thorny

[dudacek]

30 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I agree with all of this, except that I kinda think TP is inclined to be pretty patient as long as he sees improvement.  We might be ready to break out the torches and pitchforks if they finish, say, 9-10 points out of the playoffs, but I think if they get to 88-89 points (a 12-13 point improvement), don't look like they are running for the bus in March, the players aren't in open revolt/demanding to be traded and the organization overall looks well constructed, then TP will lean towards stability and away from putting JB on the hot seat.  This is the tack he seems to be taking with the Bills and I think it's the image he wants to project.

I agree this is likely where Pegula is, and likely where I will be as well.

For the Pegulas, I think there is a large streak of “class act” that they want their organization to embody. Jason seems to have done a good job at transforming the organization from Murray’s mess at that level, which will give him a ton of breathing space.

For me, more than anything else I need to see progress from a majority of Dahlin, Thompson, Mittelstadt, Nylander, Pilut, Olofsson, Asplund, Smith, Borgen, Samuelsson and - to a lesser extent - Ristolainen, Reinhart and Eichel as evidence all his talk of development is more than just talk.

I also want signs that, as a whole, Scandella, Skinner, Hutton, Montour, Sheary (and any bodies he adds this summer) are actually worth the investment he has made in them.

I need my GM to acquire and develop good players.

[Thorny]

So what if they finish between 80-85? 

For me I fall in line with @TrueBlueGED's thinking. It's playoffs/playoff bubble or bust for me. 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Thorny

[WildCard]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

So what if they finish between 80-85? 

For me I fall in line with @TrueBlueGED's thinking. It's playoffs/playoff bubble or bust for me. 

So basically don't draft in the top 10 again?

[dudacek]

2 minutes ago, Thorny said:

So what if they finish between 80-85? 

Wouldn’t it depend on circumstance? If Jack blows out his knee in game 4 and Ralph still has them in the playoff race anyway at the deadline while Montour turns into an all-star and Tage puts up 20, I’m good with it.

They have to show evidence that Botterill is on the right path and part of that is more wins but I hesitate to put a number on it.

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, WildCard said:

So basically don't draft in the top 10 again?

I think a little better. The guy will have been a GM for three seasons. He'll have started with a 78 point team. If we are sitting at 80-85, I'd say that's not really much of a compelling argument for Botteril to stay. Like dudacek said, it's about results. An improvement of 1-3 wins total over the course of 3 full seasons is just not enough. He'll have accomplished nothing in 3 years. 

We need to get to 90 and playoff bubble. 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Thorny

[TrueBlueGED]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Wouldn’t it depend on circumstance? If Jack blows out his knee in game 4 and Ralph still has them in the playoff race anyway at the deadline while Montour turns into an all-star and Tage puts up 20, I’m good with it.

They have to show evidence that Botterill is on the right path and part of that is more wins but I hesitate to put a number on it.

There are always exceptions to be made in extraordinary circumstances. 

What about the flip side? What if we make the playoffs with what is clearly an Ottawa-like puck luck season? Obviously he wouldn't be fired after that result, but it would do nothing to make me confident in him. 

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, TrueBlueGED said:

There are always exceptions to be made in extraordinary circumstances. 

What about the flip side? What if we make the playoffs with what is clearly an Ottawa-like puck luck season? Obviously he wouldn't be fired after that result, but it would do nothing to make me confident in him. 

I will be filled with blind optimism.

Not because it would be warranted, but because at my age you get desperate.

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, TrueBlueGED said:

There are always exceptions to be made in extraordinary circumstances. 

What about the flip side? What if we make the playoffs with what is clearly an Ottawa-like puck luck season? Obviously he wouldn't be fired after that result, but it would do nothing to make me confident in him. 

They would need to be quite extraordinary, to me. We were pretty healthy last season and it didn't matter. I'm not really comfortable with that being an excuse. 

If it's later in the season and we are FIRMLY in a playoff spot and Jack goes down long-term, then maybe, ya. 

Edited June 26, 2019 by Thorny

[JohnRobertEichel]

Playoffs need to be the franchise's expectation for this coming season. At a certain point, you have to be concerned about the collective psychology of a team that manages to miss the playoffs for 5 straight seasons after the 2014-15 tank season. I'm looking specifically at the core of Eichel, Reinhart, Ristolainen, Girgensons, Larsson, McCabe, and Rodrigues. JBot preaches player development, but how much can players develop in an environment that has only known losing for this long?

[nfreeman]

OK, so assuming Bogo and Pilut are not ready for the start of the season, we have, to start the season:

Dahlin-Montour

Risto-Miller

McCabe-Scandella

Extra:  Hunwick, Nelson

Rochester:  Borgen

 

Once Bogo and Pilut return, then, IF the Sabres don't like any of the trade offers out there, we could see:

Dahlin-Montour

Risto-Miller

McCabe-Bogo

Extra:  Scandella, Nelson

Rochester:  Borgen, Pilut, Hunwick (no one is going to claim Hunwick so he will clear waivers)

 

If Pilut and/or Borgen forces his way into the top 6 and no one else gets hurt in the meantime, they will need to trade someone.  But if one of those 2 events doesn't occur, they can wait as long as they like.

I don't think anyone will take Bogo's or Hunwick's contract, or give them enough for McCabe to make trading him worthwhile, and I don't think JB will trade Risto unless someone like Ehlers or better is coming back -- which may or may not happen.

OTOH, I can see someone giving them a 4th-rounder or thereabouts for Scandy or Nelson.  So, if there is no compelling offer for Risto, and if a trade needs to be made to open a roster slot, I think it'll be one of those 2 who is moved.

[Taro T]

5 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

OK, so assuming Bogo and Pilut are not ready for the start of the season, we have, to start the season:

Dahlin-Montour

Risto-Miller

McCabe-Scandella

Extra:  Hunwick, Nelson

Rochester:  Borgen

 

Once Bogo and Pilut return, then, IF the Sabres don't like any of the trade offers out there, we could see:

Dahlin-Montour

Risto-Miller

McCabe-Bogo

Extra:  Scandella, Nelson

Rochester:  Borgen, Pilut, Hunwick (no one is going to claim Hunwick so he will clear waivers)

 

If Pilut and/or Borgen forces his way into the top 6 and no one else gets hurt in the meantime, they will need to trade someone.  But if one of those 2 events doesn't occur, they can wait as long as they like.

I don't think anyone will take Bogo's or Hunwick's contract, or give them enough for McCabe to make trading him worthwhile, and I don't think JB will trade Risto unless someone like Ehlers or better is coming back -- which may or may not happen.

OTOH, I can see someone giving them a 4th-rounder or thereabouts for Scandy or Nelson.  So, if there is no compelling offer for Risto, and if a trade needs to be made to open a roster slot, I think it'll be one of those 2 who is moved.

Why do you keep sliding Ristolainen to the left side?

 

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Why do you keep sliding Ristolainen to the left side?

 

This is a fair question, although I might take issue with the implication that this is a recurring thing.

I do think that those are the top 4 Dmen and are likely to play the 4 biggest roles, especially at the start of the season with McCabe coming back from another injury.  Also, I think McCabe-Risto is the most likely 2nd pair if they stick with L-R pairings, and that pairing hasn't been that great to date.

However, you could certainly be right and then maybe it would look like, to start:

Dahlin-Montour

McCabe-Risto

Scandella-Miller

Extra:  Hunwick, Nelson

Rochester:  Borgen

 

Then, once Bogo and Pilut return:

Dahlin-Montour

McCabe-Risto

Bogo-Miller

Extra:  Scandella, Nelson

Rochester:  Borgen, Pilut, Hunwick

 

I actually would be fine with no trades and getting a look at that lineup, as I'd like to see what RK can do with them, especially if the goalie whisperer can raise the level of play in net.  But if they can get a really good forward for Risto, I think they will do so.

[steveoath]

On 6/26/2019 at 8:32 PM, Thorny said:

I think a little better. The guy will have been a GM for three seasons. He'll have started with a 78 point team. If we are sitting at 80-85, I'd say that's not really much of a compelling argument for Botteril to stay. Like dudacek said, it's about results. An improvement of 1-3 wins total over the course of 3 full seasons is just not enough. He'll have accomplished nothing in 3 years. 

We need to get to 90 and playoff bubble. 

If Botterill is serious about a long term regeneration and being patient with prospects (and im assuming the Pegulas are on board with this slow burn approach) surely he gets more than 3 years?

[jad1]

12 minutes ago, steveoath said:

If Botterill is serious about a long term regeneration and being patient with prospects (and im assuming the Pegulas are on board with this slow burn approach) surely he gets more than 3 years?

How is Botterill patient with picks?  There's this narative that Botterill is playing some kind of long game, unique to NHL GMs, when in reality, he's not.

 He's traded 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th round picks for immediate roster help.  He probably should have played Mittelstadt a half-season in Rochester.  And Thompson, while not a Boterill draft pick was forced into the line up last season.

He's not playing a long game here, he's picking and choosing his spots (Nylander and Olofsson stay in Rochester, Mittlestadt and Thompson play on Buffalo) like every other NHL GM does. 

And this isn't a bad thing.  The Sabres core is getting more expensive with little to no team success.  The GM should be addressing this fact immediately, because dumping the core is way more expensive and time consuming than replacing the GM.

Judging Botterill should be no different than any other GM.  If the Sabres are still cellar dwellers at the end of his 3rd season, Botterill should be on the hot seat

[freester]

Mike Hoffman for Ristolainen, who says no?

[bobs0108]

2 minutes ago, freester said:

Mike Hoffman for Ristolainen, who says no?

I would but if Florida is getting rid of Hoffman they are doing it to clear salary for Panarin and Bob. 

[freester]

9 minutes ago, bobs0108 said:

I would but if Florida is getting rid of Hoffman they are doing it to clear salary for Panarin and Bob. 

Absolutely Florida has to clear cap room.  That’s the reason. 

[nfreeman]

I need to know whether the psycho fiancé is still in the picture.  

[bobs0108]

18 minutes ago, freester said:

Absolutely Florida has to clear cap room.  That’s the reason. 

Risto and Hoffman are the same cap hit so who are we taking as a dump or trading for a prospect 

[Derrico]

9 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

I need to know whether the psycho fiancé is still in the picture.  

Good call.  Forgot about that.

[Brawndo]

Why trade Risto for a player on an expiring contract? 

[freester]

14 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Why trade Risto for a player on an expiring contract? 

Agreed. I would rather have a 2nd line center. 

[PASabreFan]

Quote

There was plenty of chatter in Vancouver the Sabres were shopping Ristolainen hard and the reason, in fact, was that he indicated it was time to go after six mostly disappointing seasons.

https://buffalonews.com/2019/06/29/buffalo-sabres-nhl-rasmus-ristolainen/

Again, I know — it's probably being discussed in a thread for arguments for an against trading Risto, or will be soon. See my megathread TinyRant™ in the Cozens injury thread.