Losing Culture

[darksabre]

Okay, the video is terrible. You guys are right, he could have gotten there. 

[SwampD]

Okay, the video is terrible. You guys are right, he could have gotten there. 

I was with you as well, until I saw the video. He stopped skating on the other side of their blueline. Awful.

 

 

 

Well, I guess I can't listen to WGR today. I just put it on and the very first caller said that with an 8-8 or 9-7 season we won't go anywhere and that they really need to commit to being bad in order to get good.  :blink:

 

This fan base is so broken. It might be beyond repair at this point.

[WildCard]

I was with you as well, until I saw the video. He stopped skating on the other side of their blueline. Awful.

 

 

 

Well, I guess I can't listen to WGR today. I just put it on and the very first caller said that with an 8-8 or 9-7 season we won't go anywhere and that they really need to commit to being bad in order to get good.  :blink:

 

This fan base is so broken. It might be beyond repair at this point.

I turned it on yesterday and some hammered dude starting dropping f bombs on there. That was a wild ride

[darksabre]

I was with you as well, until I saw the video. He stopped skating on the other side of their blueline. Awful.

 

 

 

Well, I guess I can't listen to WGR today. I just put it on and the very first caller said that with an 8-8 or 9-7 season we won't go anywhere and that they really need to commit to being bad in order to get good.  :blink:

 

This fan base is so broken. It might be beyond repair at this point.

I mean, I think I get what Jack was doing there, which is expecting his D to make a play on a quick shot from Williams. Williams dipsy-doodling was a little surprising to me but I think that's because Beulieu kinda blew that coverage. Eichel is in the right spot if the idea is that he's supposed to trust his defenders and goalie to handle the initial opportunity and then he can drop in and help them cover up any second chances. But that never happened. 

[WildCard]

I mean, I think I get what Jack was doing there, which is expecting his D to make a play on a quick shot from Williams. Williams dipsy-doodling was a little surprising to me but I think that's because Beulieu kinda blew that coverage. Eichel is in the right spot if the idea is that he's supposed to trust his defenders and goalie to handle the initial opportunity and then he can drop in and help them cover up any second chances. But that never happened. 

I've never once seen any NHL player other than Ovechkin do what Jack does in that video. 

[darksabre]

Perhaps Williams never makes that move if he sees Jack bearing down on him out of the corner of his eye... 

[That Aud Smell]

I mean, I think I get what Jack was doing there, which is expecting his D to make a play on a quick shot from Williams. Williams dipsy-doodling was a little surprising to me but I think that's because Beulieu kinda blew that coverage. Eichel is in the right spot if the idea is that he's supposed to trust his defenders and goalie to handle the initial opportunity and then he can drop in and help them cover up any second chances. But that never happened. 

 

It seemed surprising to Eichel as well. To my eye, Williams does that there because he can sense that he has the time and space to do it. And the reason he had that time and space was because Eichel had let up on the play before he reached his own blueline.

Perhaps Williams never makes that move if he sees Jack bearing down on him out of the corner of his eye... 

 

Beat me to it.

I'd not considered prior to today that Eichel might be at the heart of the team's identity problem.

 

It's concerning, but not overly so. I think he can learn what he needs to learn to take his play to the next level. I believe that.

[WildCard]

I think it's beyond overly concerning.

[darksabre]

It seemed surprising to Eichel as well. To my eye, Williams does that there because he can sense that he has the time and space to do it. And the reason he had that time and space was because Eichel had let up on the play before he reached his own blueline.

 

Beat me to it.

I'd not considered prior to today that Eichel might be at the heart of the team's identity problem.

 

It's concerning, but not overly so. I think he can learn what he needs to learn to take his play to the next level. I believe that.

I'm more worried that, as I've posited before, we lost two years of development under Bylsma. I think Jack desperately needs to be coached. But he has to buy in to what the coach is selling (as does the rest of the team). 

 

Good veteran influence might help too. I'd like to see Pommers stay on Jack's line because Pommers is more of a vet influence than Moulson or Gionta. Maybe still not enough though. This is the tough part about having a completely gutted team with no well respected veteran Sabres on it. There's no one there to say "I won on this team and this is how we do things around here". 

[That Aud Smell]

I think it's beyond overly concerning.

 

The fact that he signed the big contract tips things in that direction, but, based on everything I know and think I know, I'm gonna stand in the camp of "concerning, but not overly."

I'm more worried that, as I've posited before, we lost two years of development under Bylsma. I think Jack desperately needs to be coached. But he has to buy in to what the coach is selling (as does the rest of the team). 

 

Good veteran influence might help too. I'd like to see Pommers stay on Jack's line because Pommers is more of a vet influence than Moulson or Gionta. Maybe still not enough though. This is the tough part about having a completely gutted team with no well respected veteran Sabres on it. There's no one there to say "I won on this team and this is how we do things around here". 

 

Good points - esp. re Eichel needing to be coached at the NHL level.

 

With regard to the other point: There's a significant possibility that Pommers is a pud who is incapable of taking a strong mentoring hand with Eichel. Like Brian Gionta, but with less speed and a heavier shot.

[darksabre]

The fact that he signed the big contract tips things in that direction, but, based on everything I know and think I know, I'm gonna stand in the camp of "concerning, but not overly."

 

Good points - esp. re Eichel needing to be coached at the NHL level.

 

With regard to the other point: There's a significant possibility that Pommers is a pud who is incapable of taking a strong mentoring hand with Eichel. Like Brian Gionta, but with less speed and a heavier shot.

Right. Pommers may not be the guy the room needs either. We always criticized the guy back when he was part of the old core for his white bread demeanor. But at least he can still play. 

[Eleven]

I've never once seen any NHL player other than Ovechkin do what Jack does in that video. 

 

I've seen Crosby do it.

 

EDIT:  Here you go.

 

Edited November 20, 2017 by Eleven

[That Aud Smell]

I don't see that play as being comparable,

[Jacque Richard]

Terrible shooting team

[R_Dudley]

The GM was interviewed and he said it's largely because they are playing with no pressure. There is ZERO expectation of winning in the first season so the players aren't carrying any baggage.  They are supposed to not be good so every time they succeed it's just a bonus.  It's not expected.  Something similar to the response you'd have running a 9.85 100m dash compared the response Usain Bolt would have. 

 

 

Gabby has been fired from many jobs for players tuning him out.  Coaching isn't about a single message, it's about the right message at the right time.  Great coaches know how to alter the message. It's people management and as a manager it is highly unlikely that you will get a team that thinks 100% the way you do as the leader.  You have to know how to manage the personalities.  If you have a mix of personalities that are so diametrically opposed that you lose one group as a direct result of gaining another group then you have a bad culture.  You can't win that way.

 

Some players will never need the kick in the pants to be motivated. They are harder on themselves than you can ever be and having you harp on them incessantly will do nothing more than get them to tune you out.  Other players need the kick in the butt because even though they've been successful they have a tendency to not achieve 100% all the time and slack off when they can.

 

If the Sabres locker room situation isn't the problem then you have to look at what could be demotivating at a higher level.  It's hardly the fans.  Is it ownership?  Players have said that the Pegulas are great (even when they aren't in Buffalo anymore).  Is it lip service?  It might not be the ownership either.

 

Right now I think its group of players who are feeling a lot of pressure to succeed and players are all trying to do it in different ways.  You get 1 guy on the ice who tries to do something more than what they are asked to do and it's just as bad as getting 1 guy on the ice who can't do what he's asked to do.  I think the Sabres have a combination of both going on and as such they look completely out of sync and they don't look like a team.  Part of it is that they lack talent where needed and another part is that those who have talent are trying to be more than they are (Eichel included).  Eichel should not be concerned about the fans wanting him to shoot.  He should be concerned about the team winning.  But he hears that people want him to shoot more and now he's trying to do that, perhaps even shooting when he shouldn't.  That's the easy one to point out, but I think it's across the board.

Good post. I agree with everything you said. I do think a good coach can still have some of that old school mentality and help set the tone that can create a competing culture. 

 

You can make them practice hard and set an expectation for doing it right no favorites. Someone posted the penguins twitter of Herb Brooks practice skates.

 

The veterans or players that are already hard on them selves that way will understand it. Don't I recall in exhibition hearing we were making players do push ups or something like that for for missing the net? What about wind sprints for failing to execute properly a play or set up that your teaching. How about tape to tape passes on the move and a wind sprint or push ups for missing those in drills.  Those are standards of conduct you as a coach can set and enforce on everyone the same, some will grouse about it for sure but if everyone is subjected to doing even your stars then complain all you want but that's what it takes to be better as a team.

 

I am not sure what is happening with practices and coaching sessions. But as far as the media is concerned we have not been anything but focused on positives. That's fine for not calling them out in media. But when it comes to practice and coach time behind closed doors the truth is necessary. Don't want to have to hear it or deal with it then starting practicing as a team like you care. You know what I think will happen you will get better at it.          

[MattPie]

I might concede that the Leafs have had a "losing culture" since expansion, but they have something we don't. A winning tradition. 

 

Wait, what? The Leafs won 7 of their 13 cups 70+ years ago. In the last 70 years, they one a few in the late 40s/1951, then 4 in the 60s, and nothing since. That's not a winning team.

[WildCard]

There's a reason Babcock went to Toronto. It's undeniable they have a pride and prestige due to their history, no longer how long ago it happened.

 

Oddly enough, I'd argue it's greater than Colorado, NYIs, and a free other teams

[LTS]

So, you know last year I blasted Eichel for his laziness.  I have done it this year.  I watched the video and examined the evidence.  Here is what I see.

 

7:27 - penalty against Justin Williams (I incorrectly said Faulk before)

7:27 - Eichel on the ice

5:14 - Justin Williams scores

 

Eichel had been on the ice for over 2 minutes including the goal mouth scrum.  It's not like he was standing around.  He was at the left point on the 7:27 face-off.  He was around the goal mouth half-way through the penalty and he's on the other side of the ice at the face off dot when the pass out of the zone gets flipped by him.  When Williams gets the puck just past center ice (already turned up the ice) at 5:20 there are 6 seconds before he scores.

 

You guys all think Eichel is going to get back into the zone after a 2 minute shift?  Moreover, since it's not HIS defensive coverage he should go cover Beaulieu's man (Antipin is busting his butt and gets back into the play just as Williams shoots).  

 

As I said.. Eichel's coverage responsibility is the FRESH Hurricanes player crossing the blue-line when he crosses it.

 

Sorry, in this case I don't see him being lazy or out of position.

 

 

Good post. I agree with everything you said. I do think a good coach can still have some of that old school mentality and help set the tone that can create a competing culture. 

 

You can make them practice hard and set an expectation for doing it right no favorites. Someone posted the penguins twitter of Herb Brooks practice skates.

 

The veterans or players that are already hard on them selves that way will understand it. Don't I recall in exhibition hearing we were making players do push ups or something like that for for missing the net? What about wind sprints for failing to execute properly a play or set up that your teaching. How about tape to tape passes on the move and a wind sprint or push ups for missing those in drills.  Those are standards of conduct you as a coach can set and enforce on everyone the same, some will grouse about it for sure but if everyone is subjected to doing even your stars then complain all you want but that's what it takes to be better as a team.

 

I am not sure what is happening with practices and coaching sessions. But as far as the media is concerned we have not been anything but focused on positives. That's fine for not calling them out in media. But when it comes to practice and coach time behind closed doors the truth is necessary. Don't want to have to hear it or deal with it then starting practicing as a team like you care. You know what I think will happen you will get better at it.          

 

I do think Housley employs some old school tactics when necessary.  I don't know it, but I believe it.  The media portions I don't give much credence to because it's all a psychological game at that point.  If you have a team that's doubting itself and struggling perhaps the last thing you want as a coach is the media to be trying to tear apart the players more.  Hard to say really.

 

 

The twitter post was a Michigan Mile conditioning drill.  I never used it as an "again" drill and I don't know that it is being used there in the same way.  Maybe it is and I missed something?

 

https://www.hockeyshare.com/drills/drill.php?id=203170?hs_a_id=1010

 

I've implemented my fair share of "again" drills.  Those are usually the entire team skating at once and just going back and forth between the boards. 

[That Aud Smell]

Not for nothing: It’s for sure that Eichel was on the ice from 7:27 until 5:14?

[qwksndmonster]

I read the thread title as "Logan Couture" every time.

[GASabresIUFAN]

We don't have a losing culture, we just have an incomplete roster.  Jbot gets the right people in the losing culture changes over night.

 

I keep referring to 2005/6, but that team is a prime example of the right change.  DR brought in Briere and Drury for talent and leadership.  Allowed the kids to grow together on the farm (Vanek, Roy, Miller and Pommers) and then boom a losing team became a juggernaut that was only undone by 4 D injuries and later by DR/Quinn/Golisano's cheap roster management.  

 

However that team was made up primarily of our draft picks.  Vanek, Roy, Max, Tallinder, McKee, Miller, Kotalik, Goose, Kalinin, Pommers and Campbell were are drafted by Regier, Drury, Briere, Teppo, Lydman, Connolly, Hecht and Grier were all brought in to supplement what the pipeline wasn't producing, including leadership and toughness (Teppo, Drury and Grier).

 

If we can get this team to the point where we are turning over 4 capable lines, they'll becoming a winning team.  It's really that simple.  Now getting the right pieces in, that's another matter.

Edited November 20, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[rakish]

Not for nothing: It’s for sure that Eichel was on the ice from 7:27 until 5:14?

 

Yes, he was

 

http://www.nhl.com/scores/htmlreports/20172018/PL020297.HTM

[That Aud Smell]

Well. That’s ... something, anyway.

 

Still a terrible look.

[PASabreFan]

eichel williams.PNG

 

Does a losing culture maybe look a bit like this? I think it might.

 

(That's the face of the franchise with his stick across his legs, watching as Justin Williams toys with his goalie. Maybe he's also got issues in re my "category #1" above?)

Also, against doctor's orders, I read Harrington today (and learned there of Eichel's floating (missed it when I was there live)).

 

I was reminded that Harrington writes stuff like this:

 

Eichel has five goals in 20 games and is minus-9 for the season. He has one goal in his last 11 games and floated back into his zone to ghastly proportions on the opening goal here Saturday by Carolina's Justin Williams.

That's approaching Ovechkin Broken Controller territory. What's wrong with that blurb from Mike? To ghastly proportions? It's a beautiful turn of phrase. It's from a Tennyson poem, you hayseed.

[That Aud Smell]

That's approaching Ovechkin Broken Controller territory. What's wrong with that blurb from Mike? To ghastly proportions? It's a beautiful turn of phrase. It's from a Tennyson poem, you hayseed.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I suppose. It read as borderline jibberish to me. But thanks for showing up with a predictable defense of Harrington.

 

I know who Tennyson is — am unfamiliar with that phrase from him.