Do We Scout Enough In WNY?

[GASabresIUFAN]

I was watching Alex Iafallo play for LA the other day and I was wondering why we didn't make a play for the Eden NY native.  As we have learned this season (and last). you can't have enough depth in your system.  In recent years we have signed college FAs like Smith and Nelson while making offers to Vesey and Caggiula.  It seems that Iafallo, a 6'0" center with a very similar college career to Caggiula, didn't even get a look from Jbot this past summer despite our lack of any pro level center prospects and Jbot's affection for college players.

 

This lead me to wonder again if we scout enough locally. It's a question I've wondered about ever since DR drafted a Swedish D in the first round when local kid and son of Sabres legend Mike Foligno, Nick Foligno, was still on the board in 2006.  WNY has produced it's share of excellent NHLers.  Kane, obviously tops the list, but Orpik, Dustin Brown, Callahan, the Gionta Brothers, the Foligno boys, Stempniak, Eric Cole, Tim Connolly, and Marchant are all from Buffalo to Syracuse, yet none of these players, except Marcus Foligno was ever drafted by the Sabres.  With so much good local youth hockey from Erie PA (the OHL Otters) to South Ontario and WNY you'd think the local team would uncover a local gem or two, but that has never happened.

 

Admittedly we have had local kids on and off over the years such as Kaleta, Connolly, Tim Kennedy, Rory Fitzpatrick and Nichols boys Peter Ciavaglia and Scott Thomas.  Connolly's 464 games with the Sabres tops the locals with Kaleta edging Marcus Foligno 348 games to 347 for 2nd and 3rd.  Gionta played 230.  

 

While I understand the place a prospects/player is from can't be the primary factor on whether or not to sign, draft or otherwise acquire someone, I think it should be part of the Sabres's process. In fact, when drafting, when deciding between two players, maybe the local ties should be significant factor in breaking the tie.  Since college FAs are a bit of a crap shoot anyway, the local ties should also hold some sway.  Why do I think this?  The Sabres are a significant part of the identity of the Buffalo community.  TP's emphasis on making Buffalo one of the top hockey destinations for the world is working.  From the Combine to the World Jrs, TP has done a masterful job.  Now the NHL franchise needs to succeed, but wouldn't it be nice if local kids like Malone and Bailey are part of the that success.  Also the Sabres serve as a goal for the local youth hockey player.  

[Amerks8796]

The Sabres were in on Iafallo. He simply chose another organization.

[sabills]

Didn't the take a shot at Iafallo? I mean, I'm sure they knew about him even if they didn't.

 

I don't think this is a thing. You might as well say "do we scout enough from Winnipeg? Look at this list of 10 players from there that they didn't draft." I'd rather they treat every location the same, not give some sort of extra attention to Western/Upstate New York. Hometown guys are nice stories, but I'd rather just have the best talent regardless of where they're from.

[MattPie]

Didn't the take a shot at Iafallo? I mean, I'm sure they knew about him even if they didn't.

 

I don't think this is a thing. You might as well say "do we scout enough from Winnipeg? Look at this list of 10 players from there that they didn't draft." I'd rather they treat every location the same, not give some sort of extra attention to Western/Upstate New York. Hometown guys are nice stories, but I'd rather just have the best talent regardless of where they're from.

 

I agree. Plus, if the names of WNY NHL players that peters out at about 15 means there aren't that many, really. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

Didn't the take a shot at Iafallo? I mean, I'm sure they knew about him even if they didn't.

 

I don't think this is a thing. You might as well say "do we scout enough from Winnipeg? Look at this list of 10 players from there that they didn't draft." I'd rather they treat every location the same, not give some sort of extra attention to Western/Upstate New York. Hometown guys are nice stories, but I'd rather just have the best talent regardless of where they're from.

Wpg has about 200 people.  When you look at the area from Erie PA to Southern Ontario to Syracuse you are talk millions of people and thousands of young players.  

 

However, the point about the numbers of players from this area not being significant is a fact and one I agree with.  I also agree (and wrote that in the initial post) that location can't be the determinate factor.  All I'm asking for is for it to be a consideration.  Although I can't find the data, my guess is that youth hockey in WNY has grown significantly since I played in the Amherst Rec leagues and Nichols in the late 70s early 80s.  The next Patrick Kane is coming.  I'm also not only talking about Buffalo kids, but also players with local ties such as former Canisus and Niagara players etc..  Right now there are 25 guys in the NHL who are from New York state, 12 are from Syracuse to Buffalo.  Considering that only 120 people born in NY have played in the NHL and over 20% are currently active, that shows how much the game has grown here.  

Edited November 6, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[Brawndo]

Iafallo told Friedman that Buffalo was in his final three.

[bunomatic]

Always the bridesmaid.

 

:unsure:

[LGR4GM]

Always the bridesmaid.

 

:unsure:

Didn't cj Smith sign in buffalo, didn't Victor Antipin? This is yet again more buffalo woe is me attitude.

[bunomatic]

Didn't cj Smith sign in buffalo, didn't Victor Antipin? This is yet again more buffalo woe is me attitude.

Sorry Liger just being a dick. lol Hence the unsure emoticon.

[LGR4GM]

Sorry Liger just being a dick. lol Hence the unsure emoticon.

Sorry too. I'm grumpy. The team sucks, the fans are pissy, and I actually don't think we will be better till 2 years from now if Nylander, Mittlestadt, and this year's first hit. It sucks, it all sucks.

[bunomatic]

Sorry too. I'm grumpy. The team sucks, the fans are pissy, and I actually don't think we will be better till 2 years from now if Nylander, Mittlestadt, and this year's first hit. It sucks, it all sucks.

I agree.

[French Collection]

As far as local scouting goes I'm sure their staff knows the WNY kids.

When you're on the clock you should go BPA as most of us advocate.

 

In my opinion, the most demanding fans in this regard are the Habs supporters, who want French speaking players. They have an entire junior league in their backyard yet only have a few of these guys on their team.

[GASabresIUFAN]

As far as local scouting goes I'm sure their staff knows the WNY kids.

When you're on the clock you should go BPA as most of us advocate.

 

In my opinion, the most demanding fans in this regard are the Habs supporters, who want French speaking players. They have an entire junior league in their backyard yet only have a few of these guys on their team.

BPA doesn't exist.  There is no universal best player available.  If there was the draft would take about 5 minutes.  Every team uses different criteria for their players.  Take our recent draft of the defenseman from Finland. I doubt he was the BPA.  We took him in the third round; most teams didn't have him on their draft boards.  Considering our draft results in the recent years, the Sabres draft board has sucked.  

 

In fact BPA should be a banded phrase.  

 

Now back to the topic.   

[French Collection]

BPA doesn't exist.  There is no universal best player available.  If there was the draft would take about 5 minutes.  Every team uses different criteria for their players.  Take our recent draft of the defenseman from Finland. I doubt he was the BPA.  We took him in the third round; most teams didn't have him on their draft boards.  Considering our draft results in the recent years, the Sabres draft board has sucked.  

 

In fact BPA should be a banded phrase.  

 

Now back to the topic.

 

BPA is different for each team as they all have different lists.

They probably don't adhere to this 100% due to positional needs but you need a list of some kind to guide you.

 

Call it the next guy on your spreadsheet then.

[GASabresIUFAN]

BPA is different for each team as they all have different lists.

They probably don't adhere to this 100% due to positional needs but you need a list of some kind to guide you.

 

Call it the next guy on your spreadsheet then.

That is my point.   There is no BPA and since every team has their own list, why shouldn't a local connection be a tied breaker when constructing a list.  Also with some much local hockey, you'd have thought if they had put forth any scouting locally they may have found a local gem or two.  It's one of the reasons I didn't understand the drafting of the young Fin.  Roch native and BU D man David Farrance was available and went to Nashville (who actually know something about D development) a few picks later.  When all this plays out, my guess is Farrance will play in the NHL and our young Fin will not.

[dudacek]

BPA means the highest-ranked player on YOUR list, not some consensus master list.

Because, as you say, there is no consensus master list.

 

Not drafting BPA means drafting someone based on some criteria other than final draft ranking, like the player’s position, or where he’s from.

 

And the idea the Tim Murray sucks as an evaluator because his late rounders haven’t hit is laughable; I suspect most GMs have never personally scouted their late picks. They pay scouts to do that.

 

One of my favourite draft memories is watching Bobby Clarke sleeping in his chair during the 06 draft in Vancouver, then completely botching the name of their first-round pick. I read later the Flyers were all keyed to pick the great Bobby Sanguinetti with their pick only to have the Rangers him one pick earlier.

 

A pissed-off group of Flyer scouts handed Clarke the next name on their list, some kid from the Q he’d barely heard of named Claude Giroux.

[GASabresIUFAN]

You have no idea how teams create their list.  Position and location may very well be criteria for some teams.  For example, Philly put an emphasis on drafting D and now their pipeline is full of high quality D prospects.  Ana has for a decade made drafting D a priority.   As someone mentioned earlier, Montreal used to have a focus on French Canadian players. 

 

BPA means only drafting players on skill alone. That never happens.  I remember Regier saying he was looking for a goaltender in the later rounds of the 2012 draft and grabbed Ullmark in the sixth.  While its possible the Ullmark was the top player left on his list in 2012 when we were drafting at 163, it's much more likely that Ullmark was the top remaining goalie on his list and he felt he wouldn't still be available in the 7th.  

Edited November 7, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN

[dudacek]

I have some idea how teams create their lists. I’ve paid a lot of attention to a lot of hockey people on this subject

If you believe teams “never” draft based on skill alone, there is probably a disconnect here on what best player available means.

Because to me - and I believe to many people - it does not mean most skilled player.

[LGR4GM]

Skills are ranked differently in different orgs. Skating, shooting, hockey smarts, etc...

[PASabreFan]

What if the players got to draft their team?

 

"Jack Eichel selects Boston."

 

I mean, he was the guy in the players survey who picked Boston as his favorite road city, right?

[ubkev]

What if the players got to draft their team?

 

"Jack Eichel selects Boston."

 

I mean, he was the guy in the players survey who picked Boston as his favorite road city, right?

If players selected their own teams we wouldn't need to worry about having 31 teams in the NHL.

[Sabres Fan in NS]

I really think the Sabres should scout more in Nova Scotia.

 

Really.

 

:flirt:

[Drunkard]

I really think the Sabres should scout more in Nova Scotia.

 

Really.

 

:flirt:

 

This man makes sense, even if he chooses to ignore one of the greatest shows ever made despite the fact that it's filmed in his own back yard. Let's draft some f'n Mooseheads. Start with Zadina.

[OhMyDahlin]

I was watching Alex Iafallo play for LA the other day and I was wondering why we didn't make a play for the Eden NY native.  As we have learned this season (and last). you can't have enough depth in your system.  In recent years we have signed college FAs like Smith and Nelson while making offers to Vesey and Caggiula.  It seems that Iafallo, a 6'0" center with a very similar college career to Caggiula, didn't even get a look from Jbot this past summer despite our lack of any pro level center prospects and Jbot's affection for college players.

 

This lead me to wonder again if we scout enough locally. It's a question I've wondered about ever since DR drafted a Swedish D in the first round when local kid and son of Sabres legend Mike Foligno, Nick Foligno, was still on the board in 2006.  WNY has produced it's share of excellent NHLers.  Kane, obviously tops the list, but Orpik, Dustin Brown, Callahan, the Gionta Brothers, the Foligno boys, Stempniak, Eric Cole, Tim Connolly, and Marchant are all from Buffalo to Syracuse, yet none of these players, except Marcus Foligno was ever drafted by the Sabres.  With so much good local youth hockey from Erie PA (the OHL Otters) to South Ontario and WNY you'd think the local team would uncover a local gem or two, but that has never happened.

 

Admittedly we have had local kids on and off over the years such as Kaleta, Connolly, Tim Kennedy, Rory Fitzpatrick and Nichols boys Peter Ciavaglia and Scott Thomas.  Connolly's 464 games with the Sabres tops the locals with Kaleta edging Marcus Foligno 348 games to 347 for 2nd and 3rd.  Gionta played 230.  

 

While I understand the place a prospects/player is from can't be the primary factor on whether or not to sign, draft or otherwise acquire someone, I think it should be part of the Sabres's process. In fact, when drafting, when deciding between two players, maybe the local ties should be significant factor in breaking the tie.  Since college FAs are a bit of a crap shoot anyway, the local ties should also hold some sway.  Why do I think this?  The Sabres are a significant part of the identity of the Buffalo community.  TP's emphasis on making Buffalo one of the top hockey destinations for the world is working.  From the Combine to the World Jrs, TP has done a masterful job.  Now the NHL franchise needs to succeed, but wouldn't it be nice if local kids like Malone and Bailey are part of the that success.  Also the Sabres serve as a goal for the local youth hockey player.  

It's going to happen again since Jason Botterill took Oskari Laaksonen over David Farrance.

 

Laaksonen better be a stud, because I would bet that Farrance turns into one.

 

(And it's no surprise that, of all the teams, the Predators drafted Farrance four spots after the Sabres took Laaksonen.)

[LGR4GM]

That pick still makes me sad