How much should Kane' s extension be?

[erickompositör72]

It basically comes down to the fact that we, rightly or wrongly, trust the people that we've read on this forum for a long time. I know how nasty WNY can be in general about stuff like that but I truly believe that this forum is a haven of brilliance and equality and liberty and other Neo words.

 

Well, I don't know these people, but what you say is very encouraging. And maybe I am a little quick to assume things about WNY'ers.

 

Every criticism against him has been validated and expounded upon ad nauseam.

 

 

 Not quite. Some I find quite tenuous. But perhaps the argument could be made that tenuous arguments are made regularly here, as well, for/against any player. That just wasn't my perception- that it was a "run-of-the-mill" tenuous argument, but maybe something worse.

 

As I said, I'll give people the benefit of the doubt.

 

However, I do take issue with having my posts pointed out as "obnoxious." Aren't we all entitled to an obnoxious post, every now and then?  ;)

[Randall Flagg]

Well, I don't know these people, but what you say is very encouraging. And maybe I am a little quick to assume things about WNY'ers.

 

 

 

 Not quite. Some I find quite tenuous. But perhaps the argument could be made that tenuous arguments are made regularly here, as well, for/against any player. That just wasn't my perception- that it was a "run-of-the-mill" tenuous argument, but maybe something worse.

 

As I said, I'll give people the benefit of the doubt.

 

However, I do take issue with having my posts pointed out as "obnoxious." Aren't we all entitled to an obnoxious post, every now and then?  ;)

Personally I believe that two of the benchmarks of being a tenured poster on this board are 

 

1.) having nfreeman call something you say "outstanding" 

2.) having nfreeman call something you say "obnoxious"

I believe my personal tally is 1 for the first and 6 or 7 for the 2nd :P 

[drnkirishone]

Personally I believe that two of the benchmarks of being a tenured poster on this board are

 

1.) having nfreeman call something you say "outstanding"

2.) having nfreeman call something you say "obnoxious"

 

I believe my personal tally is 1 for the first and 6 or 7 for the 2nd :P

well !!!! I am 0 for 2. What have I been doing with my sabresspace career Edited September 14, 2017 by drnkirishone

[Rasmus_]

I believe he'll be traded by the deadline to be honest.  We'll see what happens, but I don't think he's long for Buffalo.  He was a quality scorer last year of course which cannot be discounted towards his value.  Someone will want to pony up. 

[rakish]

Watch him in the defensive zone some time, then tell me about his 100% effort.

 

For me it's not the effort that's the problem. I just watch highlights, but Kane will invariably chase the puck (as will Ryan O'Reilly) allowing the defenseman Kane is suppose to be covering to get an open look. I think this partially explains the data, as he is on the ice for a lot of goals against while not playing particularly difficult matchups.

 

On the offensive end, my favorite new stat involves the shooting percentage when you are on the ice. First line players have a really high number because passing the puck to Eichel normally has good results. Fourth line players have really bad numbers because passing the puck to Delo doesn't end with a good result. Kane's stat is really bad, much worse given his linemates, which you would probably guess if you looked at the number of assists he gets or the positive side of his plus/minus.

 

I think overall there are different ways to look at hockey. My brother (and Tim Murray) look at skill set, I look at data. Most of the time we agree on players, but some players are perceived very differently by how you look at hockey and no one more than Evander Kane.

 

Malcolm Gladwell in Blink talks about studies of teacher perception, that students, given a 4 second (or something) video of a teacher without sound will reach the same valuation of said teacher after a semester of classes. Gladwell believes that students are great at valuation from those 4 seconds of video. I think Gladwell is wrong, that students are really bad at changing their mind, that only the first 4 seconds means anything, and the student will ignore all new information to fit their first impression. Kane is like the teacher. He looks great the first 4 seconds because he can skate, shoot, physically dominating, that his supporters, like Tim Murray, will ignore the ways he kills the team because Murray has already decided Kane is good.

[Taro T]

For me it's not the effort that's the problem. I just watch highlights, but Kane will invariably chase the puck (as will Ryan O'Reilly) allowing the defenseman Kane is suppose to be covering to get an open look. I think this partially explains the data, as he is on the ice for a lot of goals against while not playing particularly difficult matchups.

 

On the offensive end, my favorite new stat involves the shooting percentage when you are on the ice. First line players have a really high number because passing the puck to Eichel normally has good results. Fourth line players have really bad numbers because passing the puck to Delo doesn't end with a good result. Kane's stat is really bad, much worse given his linemates, which you would probably guess if you looked at the number of assists he gets or the positive side of his plus/minus.

 

I think overall there are different ways to look at hockey. My brother (and Tim Murray) look at skill set, I look at data. Most of the time we agree on players, but some players are perceived very differently by how you look at hockey and no one more than Evander Kane.

 

Malcolm Gladwell in Blink talks about studies of teacher perception, that students, given a 4 second (or something) video of a teacher without sound will reach the same valuation of said teacher after a semester of classes. Gladwell believes that students are great at valuation from those 4 seconds of video. I think Gladwell is wrong, that students are really bad at changing their mind, that only the first 4 seconds means anything, and the student will ignore all new information to fit their first impression. Kane is like the teacher. He looks great the first 4 seconds because he can skate, shoot, physically dominating, that his supporters, like Tim Murray, will ignore the ways he kills the team because Murray has already decided Kane is good.

Good stuff. Glad this thread is back.

 

For me, Kane belongs on this team but firmly on the 3rd line because of his IMHO lack of vision. That, again IMHO, is what leads to the chasing the puck & shooting from horrible angles.

 

Let Reinhart set him up & give Eichel someone that can see the ice. :)

[LGR4GM]

I agree.

[GASabresIUFAN]

I have long thought that Kane is one of the most over rated players in the NHL. His rep is based on one excellent season. He has been better here then his last few seasons in Wpg, but to give 6+ to a guy who isn't a consistent 30 goal or 60 pt+ player and can't stay healthy is a mis-allocation of resources.

 

My offer is zero. Trade him at the deadline is we aren't a playoff team. If we are a playoff team, then ride out the season and let him walk.

[erickompositör72]

I think he'll find his niche this year. I do agree he does lack some vision, but I think he could have more 30 goal seasons on the right line with the right system. I think this system will bode well for him

[Pokey Jones]

The negative talk from Winnipeg before (and after) he was traded was that Kane was a one trick pony and that most teams had pretty much figured that trick out. Watch how many times Kane is doing exactly the same thing and I think you will realize this critique is true. Not a lot of creativity in his game. 

 

In the effort dept. I do think he takes shifts off and quits on plays. not a good back checker at all. Still takes dumb penalties too cause, although he's better than when he was younger, he still lacks discipline and has a temper.  Definitely over rated and somewhat injury prone too. 

 

Trade him while you can get a solid price.

[LGR4GM]

If I could trade Kane for Kempe and a pick, I would

[erickompositör72]

...Kane was a one trick pony and that most teams had pretty much figured that trick out. Watch how many times Kane is doing exactly the same thing and I think you will realize this critique is true. Not a lot of creativity in his game. 

 

This would seem believable if he didn't lead our team in goals. So...

[LGR4GM]

This would seem believable if he didn't lead our team in goals. So...

That's only because Jack was injured. I'll bet you he doesn't this year.

Hmm although, if Sam is his centre and 3rd line matchup... he could

[dudacek]

Am I the only one who thought Kane was successful as he was last year because he was far more judicious in his shot selection, and better - still not great, but better - in reading and respecting his linemates?

 

And don't think I read too much into thinking that Kane believes Jack is a meal ticket and likes to be on his flank.

Edited September 17, 2017 by dudacek

[GASabresIUFAN]

His shooting % was over 10%. Not exactly a great stat when you compare him to the elite wingers in this league. In fact of all the guys with 28 goals or more last year, only Ovie's 10.5 was worse then Evander's 10.8. Most of the elite scores were 13+. Evander has never even approached that number. His career % is 9, both here and Wpg. He will never be an elite player. At 26 he is what he is. Investing another 5+ years and $6 or more per season in a mediocre injury prone winger and hoping he earns the money when he has never come close to justifying such a contract is foolish.

 

Then again people here were wanted to re-sign Kulikov and Franson. Now that we have a competent GM, anyonewant them back. We need to move on from Kane.

Edited September 17, 2017 by GASabresFan

[erickompositör72]

That's only because Jack was injured. I'll bet you he doesn't this year.

 

I thought that goes without saying. However, I still think he can break 30 goals

 

Am I the only one who thought Kane was successful as he was last year because he was far more judicious in his shot selection, and better - still not great, but better - in reading and respecting his linemates?

 

 

I agree

[Taro T]

His shooting % was over 10%. Not exactly a great stat when you compare him to the elite wingers in this league. In fact of all the guys with 28 goals or more last year, only Ovie's 10.5 was worse then Evander's 10.8. Most of the elite scores were 13+. Evander has never even approached that number. His career % is 9, both here and Wpg. He will never be an elite player. At 26 he is what he is. Investing another 5+ years and $6 or more per season in a mediocre injury prone winger and hoping he earns the money when he has never come close to justifying such a contract is foolish.

Then again people here were anting to re-sign Kulikov and Franson. Now that we have a competent GM, anyonewant them back. We need to move on from Kane.

Who wanted to re-sign Franson?

[erickompositör72]

 At 26 he is what he is.

 

Yes, a potential 30 goal scorer. Those don't grow on trees.

[3putt]

:flirt:  :flirt:

It basically comes down to the fact that we, rightly or wrongly, trust the people that we've read on this forum for a long time. I know how nasty WNY can be in general about stuff like that but I truly believe that this forum is a haven of brilliance and equality and liberty and other Neo words.

Wow right and left brain.  No Neo words,  but your quite the catch!  

[GASabresIUFAN]

If he was going to be a consistent threat to score 30 goals he'd have done it more then once in 8 NHL season and more recently then 6 years ago.

 

 

As to Franson 60% of the voters on the poll wanted Franson back....60%. Nearly 80% wanted Kulikov back. Don't believe me? Check out the link. https://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/24709-how-to-fix-the-d-both-short-and-long-term/

[Randall Flagg]

If he was going to be a consistent threat to score 30 goals he'd have done it more then once in 8 NHL season and more recently then 6 years ago.

 

 

As to Franson 60% of the voters on the poll wanted Franson back....60%. Nearly 80% wanted Kulikov back. Don't believe me? Check out the link. https://forums.sabrespace.com/topic/24709-how-to-fix-the-d-both-short-and-long-term/

Is this some sort of putdown of people who wanted to resign a guy (and most at a very low number) that was the third best defenseman from last season, at a time in the season when we were watching Bergdorfer and Austin skate around because of injuries?

 

Okay?

Edited September 17, 2017 by Randall Flagg

[LGR4GM]

That poll sucks. That's why I've never voted. There isn't a gorges back but as the 7th or 8th defender

[GASabresIUFAN]

I guess, but this poll doesn't have an option to not re-sign Kane.

[nfreeman]

Well, Kane has flaws, but to call him "mediocre" is nuts.

 

He scored at well above a 30-goal pace last year and I am confident will do at least as well in his contract year.

 

Bodies fly when he crashes the net.

 

He's a very good skater.

 

No one takes liberties with his teammates when he's on the ice.

 

It's certainly possible that he's a self-absorbed jerk, that he loafs in practice, and/or that he assaulted those women. It's also certainly possible that none of those things is true.

 

I can understand not wanting to give him a fat long-term contract.

 

But it is crazy to think the Sabres would be better off without him.

[GASabresIUFAN]

But here is the problem. He never plays a full season. He plays 80% of the season, but will want a salary for an elite scorer (which he isn't) who plays a full season (which he doesn't)

 

And I do think the Sabres will be better without him long-term. I'm not sure he is a plus in the lockerroom. I know he doesn't make his linemates better. I'm sure his sign extension,if signed, will \ become an albatros as his body breaks down because of his playing style and his roster spot needs to go to younger, cheaper, heathier players with upside. Guys like Asplund, Nylander and Mittelstud are going to be pressing for NHL duty soon and I want to give them that opportunity.

Edited September 17, 2017 by GASabresFan