dudacek Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) I think an overlooked angle in all this is the amount of assists Kane creates: not by making good passes, but by receiving them. Neither Jack, not ERod get points last night with their routine passes without Kane's speed, drive and shot. He's not like he's a passive Ray Shepard sniper feasting on the efforts of his linemates. He creates turnovers with his forecheck, lanes with his speed on the rush, and rebounds with his shooting. Edited February 17, 2017 by dudacek Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 I think an overlooked angle in all this is the amount of assists Kane creates: not by making good passes, but by receiving them. Neither Jack, not ERod get points last night with their routine passes without Kane's speed, drive and shot. He's not like he's a passive Ray Shepard sniper feasting on the efforts of his linemates. He creates turnovers with his forecheck, lanes with his speed on the rush, and rebounds with his shooting. And if there's one thing I want out of this hockey season, it's Jack getting as many points as possible, deserved or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabills Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) What is it about this fan base and dynamic wingers? If it isnt Kovalchuck and we dont have room for a 50 goal scorer than it's Kane and we need a defenseman. What would this teams record look like with his offence and forecheck gone? He's almost singlehandedly kept the playoff race close. For me, part of the worry is that is a spike in his production. I'm not convinced that if we sign him for 5 more years I'll get 5 years of this play. And since I don't think I'm winning the cup this year or next, I have to make the decision soon if he's in my long term plans. Right now, Kane is the leading 5v5 scorer for the last month and has a year left on his contract. Next year at this time he could be in slump, or injured, or got arrested again (not assuming, but its not like its not a possibility), and he'll be a rental. If he's untradeable then, or he's worth considerably less, then I've lost value, especially if I don't want to pay him 6m a year when I've got big contracts for Eichel and Reinhart incoming. If I can trade him for a d-man who's going to sit in my top pair for the next 5 years right now, then that's worth it to me. Its about getting value for a guy who I'm not sure is a part of the long term plans. Its not personal, its just business. Edited February 17, 2017 by sabills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 For me, part of the worry is that is a spike in his production. I'm not convinced that if we sign him for 5 more years I'll get 5 years of this play. And since I don't think I'm winning the cup this year or next, I have to make the decision soon if he's in my long term plans. Right now, Kane is the leading 5v5 scorer for the last month and has a year left on his contract. Next year at this time he could be in slump, or injured, or got arrested again (not assuming, but its not like its not a possibility), and he'll be a rental. If he's untradeable then, or he's worth considerably less, then I've lost value, especially if I don't want to pay him 6m a year when I've got big contracts for Eichel and Reinhart incoming. If I can trade him for a d-man who's going to sit in my top pair for the next 5 years right now, then that's worth it to me. Its about getting value for a guy who I'm not sure is a part of the long term plans. Its not personal, its just business. He's the team's leading scorer and he's young. He should be in your long-term plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 If Murray trades Kane I am convinced that he has no plan for this team. And be prepared for Angry NS like never before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 Risto and Eichel's values are high right now, this is the time to trade them. If Murray trades Kane I am convinced that he has no plan for this team. And be prepared for Angry NS like never before. You and me both. If Kane is traded I am turning in my fan card because I don't see the logic in trading away a player who is a key to the future, when this is the point where the future is now. This isn't three years ago when we needed assets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 For me, part of the worry is that is a spike in his production. I'm not convinced that if we sign him for 5 more years I'll get 5 years of this play. And since I don't think I'm winning the cup this year or next, I have to make the decision soon if he's in my long term plans. Right now, Kane is the leading 5v5 scorer for the last month and has a year left on his contract. Next year at this time he could be in slump, or injured, or got arrested again (not assuming, but its not like its not a possibility), and he'll be a rental. If he's untradeable then, or he's worth considerably less, then I've lost value, especially if I don't want to pay him 6m a year when I've got big contracts for Eichel and Reinhart incoming. If I can trade him for a d-man who's going to sit in my top pair for the next 5 years right now, then that's worth it to me. Its about getting value for a guy who I'm not sure is a part of the long term plans. Its not personal, its just business. I see it as forming chemistry with his linemates and the team in general gelling together. I expect the output of all our players to increase as that happens. Because Kane plays (what I call) an unconventional game, it's taken a while for him to click with the rest of the team. Now he knows them and they know him. He does well on the Eichel line, he does well on the third line. At this point I think he's providing synergy and making either line better (and when it cools off, swap him with Foligno, another player that is part of the core, or at least an important asset). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weave Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 Look at the teams Kane has been on. He's never been on one with this much talent. Of course he should have a spike in production. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bob_sauve28 Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 Risto and Eichel's values are high right now, this is the time to trade them. You and me both. If Kane is traded I am turning in my fan card because I don't see the logic in trading away a player who is a key to the future, when this is the point where the future is now. This isn't three years ago when we needed assets. Oh you guys please stay!! The team is bigger than one player!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dudacek Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 Look at the teams Kane has been on. He's never been on one with this much talent. Of course he should have a spike in production. 25-year-olds never get better, not even when they are put in positions to succeed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 25-year-olds never get better, not even when they are put in positions to succeed. Time to trade O'Reilly and Okposo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted February 17, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 Time to trade O'Reilly and Okposo.Again, they are here long term, aren't hurt nearly as often, and are more versatile. They are not comparable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 Again, they are here long term, aren't hurt nearly as often, and are more versatile. They are not comparable Then Murray should be fired for signing players to long term deals when they aren't going to get any better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabills Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) He's the team's leading scorer and he's young. He should be in your long-term plans. I see it as forming chemistry with his linemates and the team in general gelling together. I expect the output of all our players to increase as that happens. Because Kane plays (what I call) an unconventional game, it's taken a while for him to click with the rest of the team. Now he knows them and they know him. He does well on the Eichel line, he does well on the third line. At this point I think he's providing synergy and making either line better (and when it cools off, swap him with Foligno, another player that is part of the core, or at least an important asset). I understand all this, and I'm not going to be upset if he's still on my team next year, but really, who the hell knows. He's young, but he's been in the league for 8 seasons now, its not like all of a sudden he'll be a massively different player. Probably. E. Kane Average stats by season: 09/10 - .39 PPG, .21 GPG 10/11 - .59 PPG, .26 GPG 11/12 - .77 PPG, .40 GPG 12/13 - .68 PPG, .35 GPG 13/14 - .65 PPG, .30 GPG 14/15 - .59 PPG, .27 GPG 15/16 - .53 PPG, .30 GPG 16/17 - .62 PPG, .40 GPG Career - .61 PPG, .31 GPG Since December 1st 2016 - .79 PPG, .56 GPG He's been pretty consistently a 2/3 of a point and 1/3 of a goal per game player for EIGHT YEARS. Don't go assuming that all of a sudden he's become a new player. http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/k/kaneev01.html Edited February 17, 2017 by sabills Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 Yet, Okposo averages .69 PPG and .26 GPG for his career and everybody was salivating over him. And Okposo doesn't have the physicality and the speed of Kane. There's a reason why Kane and Eichel do so well together, it's because Kane is the only one who can keep up. I just don't get it. Regardless of whether or not he can maintain this pace, he is a top 6 forward. More like a top 3 forward, who doesn't take a game off, who scores goal guys like Okposo could never do, and is the kind of player to look after guys like Eichel. He's the kind of player who would excel in the playoffs. I just don't understand why so many want him gone (I think I do actually). So he misses 20 games a year, that's what happens with guys who play his style of game. And you can't be without players who play that style of game, you take the good with the bad. So you trade him for a top 2 D-man and next year they'll find themselves looking to fill offensive hole. God forbid any of the top forwards misses extended time next year and we're all crying because there is no offensive depth. Yes, I said it......... there is nobody coming up through the ranks that can match what Kane brings. Not even remotely. If he says he doesn't want to stay here, worry about it next year. If he wants to stay, make an extension #1 priority so that way Murray can put this behind him and we can all find something else to bitch about. :P And yes, justifying not keeping Kane because he's "over the hill" is ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabills Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 Yet, Okposo averages .69 PPG and .26 GPG for his career and everybody was salivating over him. And Okposo doesn't have the physicality and the speed of Kane. There's a reason why Kane and Eichel do so well together, it's because Kane is the only one who can keep up. I'm not complaining about Kane as a player. I LOVE him as a player. And those consistent numbers? They're really good! But Okposo is signed here for 5 years longer than Kane is. His money is already accounted for, and he's set for a long time. Kane becomes a UFA the same off season as Jack and Sam are set to get their second contract (along with Bailey and Carrier, but obviously that's a different scale). Thats a LOT of money to sink all at once. The fact that Kane is all those things you mentioned means he is prime trade bait to get someone to anchor down the defense which we all know is lacking. Okposo isn't getting traded, neither is ROR, nor are Jack and Sam. I love Kane, but I love winning long term more, and if he's a part of bringing in a Top Tier D-man thats going to be in my lineup for more than 2 years, then I take that plunge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 Oh you guys please stay!! The team is bigger than one player!! I watched probably 98% of the games all through the tank years. I watched as this team was completely dismantled. I've watched over the last year or two for that playoff caliber team to finally click. It's getting there ever so slowly. If Murray trades Kane, it just tells me as a fan that he has no interest in making this team better for the future. And I'm not going to live through any more of this. He says he has no intention of trading Kane. But if he does.............. I can only take so much. ;) I'm not complaining about Kane as a player. I LOVE him as a player. And those consistent numbers? They're really good! But Okposo is signed here for 5 years longer than Kane is. His money is already accounted for, and he's set for a long time. Kane becomes a UFA the same off season as Jack and Sam are set to get their second contract (along with Bailey and Carrier, but obviously that's a different scale). Thats a LOT of money to sink all at once. The fact that Kane is all those things you mentioned means he is prime trade bait to get someone to anchor down the defense which we all know is lacking. Okposo isn't getting traded, neither is ROR, nor are Jack and Sam. I love Kane, but I love winning long term more, and if he's a part of bringing in a Top Tier D-man thats going to be in my lineup for more than 2 years, then I take that plunge. We're going to have to agree to disagree. You can get a top tier D-man without getting rid of your top scorer, and there is nothing wrong with being overstocked with forwards. This team will be stacked offensively, win by outscoring the opponents. The best teams over the last several years didn't have the best defense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabills Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 I watched probably 98% of the games all through the tank years. I watched as this team was completely dismantled. I've watched over the last year or two for that playoff caliber team to finally click. It's getting there ever so slowly. If Murray trades Kane, it just tells me as a fan that he has no interest in making this team better for the future. And I'm not going to live through any more of this. He says he has no intention of trading Kane. But if he does.............. I can only take so much. ;) We're going to have to agree to disagree. You can get a top tier D-man without getting rid of your top scorer, and there is nothing wrong with being overstocked with forwards. Fair enough. I think the last several years have shown that you can't. I love Kane's game, so I understand not wanting to trade him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 Sorry, I kept adding. :thumbsup: Fair enough. I think the last several years have shown that you can't. I love Kane's game, so I understand not wanting to trade him. And I understand why some would want to trade for that top tier D-man. I just don't think that the direction the game is going that loading up on high $$ D-men is the way to go. Just can't afford it. Teams like the Pens and Blackhawks stick with 3-4 good top pairing guys on defense and fill in the holes as they go with serviceable D-men and/or cheap prospects making the jump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sabills Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 Sorry, I kept adding. :thumbsup: And I understand why some would want to trade for that top tier D-man. I just don't think that the direction the game is going that loading up on high $$ D-men is the way to go. Just can't afford it. Teams like the Pens and Blackhawks stick with 3-4 good top pairing guys on defense and fill in the holes as they go with serviceable D-men and/or cheap prospects making the jump. Yeah, but I'd kill for what I consider to be 3 good top pairing guys haha. Risto is getting crazy amounts of time on the ice because they can't trust anyone else with those minutes. Dude is gonna burn out before he hits 25. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GASabresIUFAN Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 (edited) Sorry, I kept adding. :thumbsup: And I understand why some would want to trade for that top tier D-man. I just don't think that the direction the game is going that loading up on high $$ D-men is the way to go. Just can't afford it. Teams like the Pens and Blackhawks stick with 3-4 good top pairing guys on defense and fill in the holes as they go with serviceable D-men and/or cheap prospects making the jump. Unfortunately we only have 2, and thinking 19 yr old Guhle and 20 year old Borgen is going to solve the problem for the next few years is laughable. So you don't want to trade Kane. Ok. You explain how we are going to get another top guy on D who can help win now? Edited February 17, 2017 by GASabresIUFAN Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 Unfortunately we only have 2, and thinking 19 yr old Guhle and 20 year old Borgen is going to solve the problem for the next few years is laughable. So you don't want to trade Kane. Ok. You explain how we are going to get another top guy on D who can help win now? Like it or not, Bogosian is a top 4 D-man. Trade him to any team and every team will have him in their top 4. Kulikov is also a top 4 who could be had for cheap because of his injuries in a contract year. Don't like Bogosian's injuries? You can get another top 4 by trading draft picks, prospects or go the UFA route. Yeah, but I'd kill for what I consider to be 3 good top pairing guys haha. Risto is getting crazy amounts of time on the ice because they can't trust anyone else with those minutes. Dude is gonna burn out before he hits 25. That scares me too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabres Fan in NS Posted February 17, 2017 Report Share Posted February 17, 2017 Oh you guys please stay!! The team is bigger than one player!! I won't speak for JJ, but I will never abandon the team, or Sabrespace, but I will be Angry NS. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matter2003 Posted February 18, 2017 Report Share Posted February 18, 2017 Again, they are here long term, aren't hurt nearly as often, and are more versatile. They are not comparable I agree...Kane actually is excellent at scoring 5 on 5 unlike every other player on this team... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJFIVEOH Posted February 18, 2017 Report Share Posted February 18, 2017 I won't speak for JJ, but I will never abandon the team, or Sabrespace, but I will be Angry NS. Everybody thinks I'm angry anyways, so it wouldn't be any different from that perspective. :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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