Patrick Kane: [Updated] D.A. Decides Not to Prosecute; NHL Determines Claims "Unfounded"

[Weave]

I'm sorry you didn't see my first or second or third or fourth explanation about who is at fault and who should be blamed. Apparently you're stuck one statement and one statement only. 

 

If you're unwilling to listen to me, then I'm just wasting my time.

 

You really need to get out more. I'm pretty sure I've spent more time around 17-23 year olds than you have.

 

LOfreakingL  Not likely. I've been through that age.  And I'm raising one.  Hell, I hang out with 23 yr olds every Friday night that aren't my kids freinds.  You're just plain wrong.  Again. 

[Taro T]

The half that feels it necessary to bring up scenarios that (a) accept that this event did occur, but it was somehow her fault or (b) insinuate that the accuser is lying because other, completely unrelated accuser, lied.

You keep saying "half" but you don't state where you get that. Really, it's HALF the population that believe the accuser either deserved it or believe she's lying? What is it, 30% believe it's her fault and 20% that think she's a liar?

[JJFIVEOH]

LOfreakingL  Not likely. I've been through that age.  And I'm raising one.  Hell, I hang out with 23 yr olds every Friday night that aren't my kids freinds.  You're just plain wrong.  Again. 

 

I'd explain myself but you'll just ignore it like you have pretty much everything else I've said so far.

[Weave]

I'd explain myself but you'll just ignore it like you have pretty much everything else I've said so far.

 

Au Contraire.  I've taken in everything you've said and noted the pattern.   Only using the content of your last few posts would be cherry picking the data.   :flirt:

Edited August 7, 2015 by weave

[LastPommerFan]

You keep saying "half" but you don't state where you get that. Really, it's HALF the population that believe the accuser either deserved it or believe she's lying? What is it, 30% believe it's her fault and 20% that think she's a liar?

 

let's just remove my words "half the people" and lob a "somewhere between 30-60% of the people" so we don't have to debate this trivial part of my point.

[LGR4GM]

JJ, the adult is responsible to understand the inherent risks of sexual intercourse with someone who is of a questionable age.  A 16yr old however is not responsible for understanding the nuances of sex and bars.  That is the law our society accepts and lives under.  A 16 yr old girl can't consent to have sex with someone who is 26.  I don't care if she was dressed like Jenna Jameson, giving a 26yr old a lap dance, while whispering sweet nothings in his ear. Not mature enough to understand the situation, the probable outcome, or the consequences.  It is on the adult in that situation to act like an adult, it is not on a 16yr old to understand all that situation encompasses. 

You keep asking "how would he have known?"  and honestly as an adult he should have known.  Even if she lied to him, he is responsible because he is the adult. It is that simple.  Just like you are responsible for killing someone if you drive drunk.  "I didn't know I was too drunk to drive or that that person was in the crosswalk."  Doesn't matter you are responsible. Same thing. Adults are responsible for their actions.

[JJFIVEOH]

JJ, the adult is responsible to understand the inherent risks of sexual intercourse with someone who is of a questionable age.  A 16yr old however is not responsible for understanding the nuances of sex and bars.  That is the law our society accepts and lives under.  A 16 yr old girl can't consent to have sex with someone who is 26.  I don't care if she was dressed like Jenna Jameson, giving a 26yr old a lap dance, while whispering sweet nothings in his ear. Not mature enough to understand the situation, the probable outcome, or the consequences.  It is on the adult in that situation to act like an adult, it is not on a 16yr old to understand all that situation encompasses. 

OK

[Taro T]

let's just remove my words "half the people" and lob a "somewhere between 30-60% of the people" so we don't have to debate this trivial part of my point.

You and I aren't debating anything.

 

I was merely trying to understand if there was some study you'd seen that suggested 1/2 our population reflexively deems the accuser to be pond scum and if so which segment of the population that encompassed.

[LastPommerFan]

You and I aren't debating anything.

 

I was merely trying to understand if there was some study you'd seen that suggested 1/2 our population reflexively deems the accuser to be pond scum and if so which segment of the population that encompassed.

 

naw, the "half" was an expression of my personal impression of the split in reactions.

[Taro T]

naw, the "half" was an expression of my personal impression of the split in reactions.

Fair enough.

[LGR4GM]

I want to add again that we do not know anything about what is happening.  Until more details emerge we should remain patient.

[PASabreFan]

Is the whole statutory rape angle coming from that one Tweet? It sounds more like an alleged rape rape in this story:

 

 

No charges have been filed, and police are under a strict gag order from superiors not to discuss the investigation. But sources close to the case disclosed the following information Thursday to The Buffalo News:

 

• A young local woman has alleged that Kane, 26, took her to his Hamburg waterfront home and raped her after meeting her in a downtown Buffalo nightclub Saturday night or early Sunday.

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/police-courts/kane-under-police-spotlight-hockey-superstar-is-subject-of-rape-allegation-20150806

If it's true, we should applaud the woman for coming forward. She and the family will be under immense pressure. Unfortunately, especially with social media, her abuse is likely to continue.

Edited August 7, 2015 by PASabreFan

[thewookie1]

JJ, the adult is responsible to understand the inherent risks of sexual intercourse with someone who is of a questionable age.  A 16yr old however is not responsible for understanding the nuances of sex and bars.  That is the law our society accepts and lives under.  A 16 yr old girl can't consent to have sex with someone who is 26.  I don't care if she was dressed like Jenna Jameson, giving a 26yr old a lap dance, while whispering sweet nothings in his ear. Not mature enough to understand the situation, the probable outcome, or the consequences.  It is on the adult in that situation to act like an adult, it is not on a 16yr old to understand all that situation encompasses. 

You keep asking "how would he have known?"  and honestly as an adult he should have known.  Even if she lied to him, he is responsible because he is the adult. It is that simple.  Just like you are responsible for killing someone if you drive drunk.  "I didn't know I was too drunk to drive or that that person was in the crosswalk."  Doesn't matter you are responsible. Same thing. Adults are responsible for their actions.

 

I still want to know how he should figure out she's underage in that hypothetical she looks and acts like a 20 year old. It would be difficult when sober, almost impossible when already had a few drinks. What can you do? Just never drink, never go to bars, never pick up people at bars? Should someone honestly have to ask for the license and additional personal information confirming their age?

 

I personally do none of those things, but if she sneaked into a bar underage, and then had sex due to said sneaking the people at fault should honestly be the bar and the girl. If its a legit rape obviously its a whole different story, but we shouldn't need to live in world where everyone has to do background checks just to make sure their ass is covered...

 

Is the whole statutory rape angle coming from that one Tweet? It sounds more like an alleged rape rape in this story:

 

 

http://www.buffalonews.com/city-region/police-courts/kane-under-police-spotlight-hockey-superstar-is-subject-of-rape-allegation-20150806

If it's true, we should applaud the woman for coming forward. She and the family will be under immense pressure. Unfortunately, especially with social media, her abuse is likely to continue.

 

Then throw the book at him if that's true

Edited August 7, 2015 by thewookie1

[bunomatic]

Not to pile on but...what the hell here goes. Who believes that Kane most likely remembers nothing of the encounter ? The way he was bragging about the drinking he would be doing after the cup win has me thinking he has a wee bit of a drinking and a maturity problem. I know, captain obvious. But I'll bet dollars to donuts he doesn't remember the night in question. Just a hunch of course. Nothing to go on but his outstanding reputation.

[nfreeman]

Until a law says that we need to present ID's and sign disclaimers before sleeping with somebody, what else is somebody supposed to do when they are approached by somebody dressed as an adult, lying about their age while in an adult establishment?

 

The law doesn't say anything about how to avoid committing statutory rape.  The law simply says if a non-minor has sex with a minor, the non-minor has committed statutory rape.

 

Again -- if you think the law is wrong, that's a reasonable position.  But everyone knows what this law says.  You don't get to break the law because you don't believe in it, and you don't get to break it because "she looked 21 and what was I supposed to do?" 

 

Here's what you're supposed to do:  you make it your GD business to make GD sure that she's 21.  In Kane's case (as I think is the case with a lot of celebrities), it means you get one of your homies in your entourage to check a girl's ID before she gets too close, and certainly before she leaves with him.

 

But either way -- it's on you.  The fact that she looked older and lied about her age is not an excuse.

 

I don't see how this can be any more clear.

 

Agreed. Same can be said for the 17 to 18 transition. I guess it comes down to lines gotta be drawn somewhere, innit?

 

(Hopefully my use of innit there meets with Freeman's approval)

 

Good usage.

 

I will say this.  Traditionally states do not allow a mistake of fact defense regarding the victim's age in statutory rape situations.  However, there is a "movement" to allow reasonable mistake of fact defenses in statutory rape cases.  It is a minority of states (in the low 20s i believe).  The majority of states still impose strict liability in statutory rape cases.  

 

So I wouldn't be so dismissive of JJ's hypothetical.  I think it is more reasonable to allow a mistake of fact/age defense than not. 

 

Again -- this is not an unreasonable discussion, but in a state where the law doesn't allow this defense -- it's simply not a defense, and continuing to say "but she looked older" is neither here nor there.

 

I mentioned it just before the merge so I think it got lost:

 

Does shouting that the accused deserves benefit of the simultaneously mean that the accuser does not?

 

If you're having a reasonable discussion, you shouldn't demean the other side. 

 

And yes -- that's what it means.  Until there is evidence to support the accuser, the law presumes that the accused is innocent. 

 

There is nothing.... NOTHING... about this allegation to indicate that it is fabricated.

 

There is nothing about this allegation to indicate that it is fabricated.

 

NOTHING.

 

Every single piece of speculation that the allegation is not credible does a disservice to the accuser and adds nothing to society, nor this discussion. NOTHING.

 

Every piece of speculation that the allegation is not credible is an insensitive, unnecessary and inappropriate additional attack on a woman who may have just been raped, and adds nothing to society or this discussion. 

 

PLEASE STOP.

 

No.  I'm not going to stop.  And you shouldn't ask me to.  Intelligent conversation (which is what I expect from you especially) does not include telling someone who doesn't agree with you to STFU.

 

There's a reason the law of the land is innocent until proven guilty.

 

And to be clear:  no one here has any facts.  No one is smearing anyone.  The conversation (other than the statutory rape part of it) has revolved primarily around the presumption of innocence and the question of whether and how often this type of accusation is false. 

 

Yes -- if it's true, he's done something terrible and she's been through something terrible.  No one is disputing that.  But just because she's accused him doesn't mean he did it.  It just doesn't. 

 

When the facts are in -- which they decidedly are NOT -- we can weigh them and evaluate the situation on a more informed basis. 

 

Until then, the people here are trying to have an intelligent, reasonable conversation.

 

Don't charge in and try to stifle it.

 

 

I feel like there's an attempt to silence people giving hypotheticals. Or at least silence anybody who's not saying

 

1. "We must not make any comments until the facts come out"

2. Completely side with the accuser

 

What is wrong with people pointing out that sometimes there are false accusations? What is wrong with people painting common scenarios that could lead to a rape accusation? 

 

Why are we being thought policed right now?

 

Good freaking question.

 

This is the ONLY crime where half the people immediately jump to creating scenarios where it is the Victim's fault.

 

The Misogyny is palpable.

 

When someone has their car stolen, we don't jump to "they may have left their keys in the car and a note that says 'free ride'"

 

When someone is hit by a drunk driver, we don't jump to "they probably jumped out into traffic"

 

When someone is mugged, we don't jump to "I'll bet they just gave the guy the money, and then wanted it back afterwards."

 

I will thought police the ###### out of misogyny, intentional or not, conscious or subconscious, because I love women and I'm absolutely sick and tired of so many men having such contempt for them.

 

This is way out of line.

 

No one has said "well, if she was raped, she was asking for it."

 

A number of people have said that the accusation could be false. 

 

There is a huge difference between those 2 concepts that anyone not wearing PC-liberal-feminist blinders ought to be able to appreciate.

 

[darksabre]

Why does anyone need to posit that the accusation might be false? 

[Jeanbe]

Interesting reads all around and some interesting insight into some posters here.  Wow.

 

Let this play out and let the facts come out in the Kane case. We have no clue if the person is under aged as of yet.  

 

This still has to play out in a court of law if it goes that far but P Kane has hurt his rep beyond repair for sponsors if he is innocent in this (I want to say affair, but someone would say affairs are consensual) legal event.

[WildCard]

Why does anyone need to posit that the accusation might be false? 

I know I keep quoting you d4rk in this thread, but I'll do it again. Because we're all ignorant in this case thus far, and that means there is a possibility it's false. There is also a possibility it's true. Going either way right now isn't appropriate right now IMO

[darksabre]

I know I keep quoting you d4rk in this thread, but I'll do it again. Because we're all ignorant in this case thus far, and that means there is a possibility it's false. There is also a possibility it's true. Going either way right now isn't appropriate right now IMO

 

No kidding. So maybe I have to repost the same point I keep making:

 

The accusation should be taken seriously.

 

Patrick Kane is presumed innocent. 

 

There is nothing difficult about this. 

[nfreeman]

No kidding. So maybe I have to repost the same point I keep making:

 

The accusation should be taken seriously.

 

Patrick Kane is presumed innocent. 

 

There is nothing difficult about this. 

 

Is anyone not taking the accusation seriously?

[beerme1]

If I'm connecting the dots from this thread, well I hope I'm wrong and won't say what thought I 've formed. I will see what comes next before forming an opinion. I hope it's not what has formed in my brain but I won't be surprised if that is what comes out. all based on having read this thread and PHT.

 

That kinda pisses me off too but as the saying goes where there's smoke there's fire.

[Hoss]

If you're having a reasonable discussion, you shouldn't demean the other side.

 

And yes -- that's what it means. Until there is evidence to support the accuser, the law presumes that the accused is innocent.

Huh? My question didn't demean anything. It was something I wondered if other people thought.

That's somewhat unfair then, I believe. Another way that the system is pretty unfair to the the accuser and potential victim.

[drnkirishone]

couple things.

 

one, no a minor can not legally be in a bar without a parent or guardian. i think there are loopholes thou with respect to bars with restaurants. but there is also limits on the times of day/night also

 

I do not agree with the idea that the adult should be held sole responsibility for verification of the age of a minor. At some point (and no I do not know exactly where that point is at) there has to be some blame on the minor if they lied about their age.

 

if you want to believe the victim/accuser without any of the facts available yet that is your right. but don't try and shame others for questioning possible motives over any or all aspects of the situation. the wrongfully accused can have lives ruined as quickly as the victims.

 

Having said that last part I am leaning towards blaming Kane and assuming his guilt. I know it is not fair to assume his guilt. YET! so i balance that out in my head by thinking on reasons and scenarios where he may not be at fault.

[WildCard]

Huh? My question didn't demean anything. It was something I wondered if other people thought.

That's somewhat unfair then, I believe. Another way that the system is pretty unfair to the the accuser and potential victim.

How? And, what other ways does the system suppress potential victims?

[darksabre]

Is anyone not taking the accusation seriously?

 

Yes. Every poster who is theorizing that the accusation could be false. Because that theory is based on a bias towards not believing in the validity of rape accusations in general. Especially considering the complete lack of actual information we have here. 

 

These thoughts that people have. The things that they say. It all comes from somewhere. The desire to theorize and create narratives whereby the accuser in this situation is dishonest comes from somewhere. Tell me, what is that somewhere in this case? What thoughts do I need to have to bring me to a point where I should be willing to accuse the accuser? Give me the thought process.