WildCard Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 McGinn also got to play with O'Reilly a lot, and Moulson got to play against chumps on the 4th line when he wasn't anchored to Jack. I mean, you can't have it both ways. I can just as easily say McGinn played against better competition and Moulson played with worse linemates Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Why not both? :wub: Are we sticking Samson with Kane and Ennis then? Why do you hate Samson like that? :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwksndmonster Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 I mean, you can't have it both ways. I can just as easily say McGinn played against better competition and Moulson played with worse linemates In the first place, McGinn didn't play with Eichel enough for there to be a big enough sample size and I don't know why you're arguing Moulson at all. No matter what he's a detriment to the Sabres when he's on the ice. It doesn't matter what any specific stats say about him, I know this to be horribly, painfully true. We know how bad our team was and how much Eichel shined in spite of that. (Also in spite of Hot Daniel trying to kill him with ice time for the first month and a half or so. I almost forgot about that.) Are we sticking Samson with Kane and Ennis then? Why do you hate Samson like that? :P Honestly, that line doesn't sound that terrible, assuming Taro and Dudacek are right about Kane's hockey sense and Ennis returns to 20 goal form. With Larsson shutting down the other team's top lines, and Eichel drawing the shutdown personnel, Samson could feast on those sheltered minutes. Too bad we played him with Jack at the end of this season instead of letting him learn the center position at the NHL level in a season that doesn't matter. :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 In the first place, McGinn didn't play with Eichel enough for there to be a big enough sample size and I don't know why you're arguing Moulson at all. No matter what he's a detriment to the Sabres when he's on the ice. It doesn't matter what any specific stats say about him, I know this to be horribly, painfully true. We know how bad our team was and how much Eichel shined in spite of that. (Also in spite of Hot Daniel trying to kill him with ice time for the first month and a half or so. I almost forgot about that.) So nothing is admissible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwksndmonster Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 So nothing is admissible No, just that the conclusions you drew from the stats made it sound like you don't have hundreds of hours of eye-test mind-tape to give them context. And I mean, come on, you were saying bad things about my Jack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 No, just that the conclusions you drew from the stats made it sound like you don't have hundreds of hours of eye-test mind-tape to give them context. And I mean, come on, you were saying bad things about my Jack. It hurts me to utter such blasphemy as well, but someone has to do it. :lol: I think the thing is, if you didn't play with Jack, you played with ROR, which isn't exactly fair. If you want the two teammates that suffered most when apart from Jack, it's Grigensons (who's toi is highest with Jack) and Kane, who's GF% drops nearly 10% without Jack Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwksndmonster Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 It hurts me to utter such blasphemy as well, but someone has to do it. :lol: I think the thing is, if you didn't play with Jack, you played with ROR, which isn't exactly fair. If you want the two teammates that suffered most when apart from Jack, it's Grigensons (who's toi is highest with Jack) and Kane, who's GF% drops nearly 10% without Jack I can't for the life of me believe that Kane does better AWAY from Jack. Like Blue said the other day, those two are water and oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 I can't for the life of me believe that Kane does better AWAY from Jack. Like Blue said the other day, those two are water and oil. He does much better away from Jack, in terms of everything but goal scoring. Then again, it's probably because he was either on the 3rd line, or ROR's line Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randall Flagg Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Jack would have elevated the play of his teammates had they put the freaking puck in the back of the net every time he put it on their tape with a wide open net. Poor Jack, his teammates' stats don't improve when with him because they can't score on their own OR when he does all the work to put them in prime position and they find some new way to it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Jack would have elevated the play of his teammates had they put the freaking puck in the back of the net every time he put it on their tape with a wide open net. Poor Jack, his teammates' stats don't improve when with him because they can't score on their own OR when he does all the work to put them in prime position and they find some new way to ###### it up. Hence the 'Individual High Danger Scoring Chances' on the WAR chart. They provide sustenance for this belief Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwksndmonster Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Jack would have elevated the play of his teammates had they put the freaking puck in the back of the net every time he put it on their tape with a wide open net. Poor Jack, his teammates' stats don't improve when with him because they can't score on their own OR when he does all the work to put them in prime position and they find some new way to ###### it up. It's insane to think that Jack still got 56 points this year. Kid is special. Hence the 'Individual High Danger Scoring Chances' on the WAR chart. They provide sustenance for this belief Dork! Nerd! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 JE & EK JE w/o EK EK w/o JE GF/60 1.32 2.35 1.6 GA/60 3.07 2.27 2.35 GF% 30 50.8 40.5 CF/60 54.02 48.75 56.91 CA/60 56.36 58.32 52.96 CF% 48.9 45.5 51.8 TmSH% 4.29 9.26 5.03 TmSV% 90.79 93.05 91.69 PDO 95.1 102.3 96.7 Oil meet water, water meet oil. To be sure there's some luck there, particularly on the goal scoring side of things for Kane (also: grumble grumble shot selection), but they really were not good together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ubkev Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Jack would have elevated the play of his teammates had they put the freaking puck in the back of the net every time he put it on their tape with a wide open net. Poor Jack, his teammates' stats don't improve when with him because they can't score on their own OR when he does all the work to put them in prime position and they find some new way to ###### it up. Hence, not being able to turn chicken into chicken salad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 Hence, not being able to turn chicken ###### into chicken salad. :w00t: Man, there was a chance against Vancouver at home (I wrote about it as one of my favourite memories of the season) where Eichel did just about err thang except go over, hold his teammate's stick, and finish the play for him. That one stands out in my mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brawndo Posted May 3, 2016 Report Share Posted May 3, 2016 http://nhl.nbcsports.com/2016/05/03/krug-out-six-months-krejci-out-five-months-after-undergoing-surgery/ Poor Bruins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted May 4, 2016 Report Share Posted May 4, 2016 Another way to look at it is, the gap between Eichel and all of his teammates isn't huge in WOWY; nobody is really all that affected when playing with him or without him. That can mean our team is balanced. But, even looking at him against Larkin, and McDavid, just straight up (no wowy stats), he really doesn't come off that well. Without his shot, Jack would have had a terrible season. Now, I know that's like saying 'Well without Ovechkin's shot he would have put up 20 goals'. Granted that's true, but I think what it shows is that Jack really, really needs to get in better shape for a long grind, mentally and physically, and if he doesn't start moving his feet, he's going to be an average player. I expect much more out of Jack next season Damn. Did not see that coming Say whaaaaaaat? The part I take issue with most is the "without his shot" bit. Jack's a playmaker first. What of his 32 assists? And Jack will never be an average player. Are we sticking Samson with Kane and Ennis then? Why do you hate Samson like that? :p O'Reilly - Eichel - Stamkos Girgensons - Reinhart - Fasching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted May 4, 2016 Report Share Posted May 4, 2016 Say whaaaaaaat? The part I take issue with most is the "without his shot" bit. Jack's a playmaker first. What of his 32 assists? And Jack will never be an average player. Jack had what? 4/5 goals that weren't from shots outside the lot or further? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted May 4, 2016 Report Share Posted May 4, 2016 Jack had what? 4/5 goals that weren't from shots outside the lot or further? I was referring to how you said he would have had a terrible season. His best asset isn't his goal scoring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted May 4, 2016 Report Share Posted May 4, 2016 I was referring to how you said he would have had a terrible season. His best asset isn't his goal scoring. I don't think any of us would have been happy with a Jack with 10 goals and 32 assists. I also don't think those assists happen without the opportunities given to him by his shot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted May 4, 2016 Report Share Posted May 4, 2016 I don't think any of us would have been happy with a Jack with 10 goals and 32 assists. I also don't think those assists happen without the opportunities given to him by his shotDisagree. If having a great shot got you a ton of assists, Ovi would have had more than 21 assists this season. Jack gets his assists because he is a great playmaker. If anything, his threat to pass opens up his shot. Jack's game is funnelled through his vision and playmaking. I would have been happy with a 40 point season for Jack. That was my expectation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted May 4, 2016 Report Share Posted May 4, 2016 Disagree. If having a great shot got you a ton of assists, Ovi would have had more than 21 assists this season. Jack gets his assists because he is a great playmaker. If anything, his threat to pass opens up his shot. Jack's game is funnelled through his vision and playmaking. I would have been happy with a 40 point season for Jack. That was my expectation. Well Ovie isn't a center, so I don't expect him to get center stats for assists. :P I do think having that shot opens lanes and makes defenders focus on him, leaving others open. Is it the primary reason of his assist total? Definitely not. But I think it helps it. I believe his threat to shot opens his pass. The first thing that comes to mind with Jack for me is, shot and speed Personally, a 40 point season for Jack would have been terrible IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted May 4, 2016 Report Share Posted May 4, 2016 Well Ovie isn't a center, so I don't expect him to get center stats for assists. :P I do think having that shot opens lanes and makes defenders focus on him, leaving others open. Is it the primary reason of his assist total? Definitely not. But I think it helps it. I believe his threat to shot opens his pass. The first thing that comes to mind with Jack for me is, shot and speed Personally, a 40 point season for Jack would have been terrible IMO Ok, but plenty of wingers rack up high assist totals. P. Kane, for one. I definitely agree that Jack's great shot helps open up lanes, of course it does. But Ovi having relatively low assist totals shows that a great shot won't get you those assists. When I think Jack, it's passing, and speed. His play and stats at every level has reflected this. He's a pass first player. He's elite because he also has a great shot. We'll have to disagree on what would have been terrible :p Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrueBlueGED Posted May 4, 2016 Report Share Posted May 4, 2016 The weird thing about Ovi is he used to get a lot of assists. Don't think I've seen a satisfactory explanation for why that changed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
That Aud Smell Posted May 4, 2016 Report Share Posted May 4, 2016 The weird thing about Ovi is he used to get a lot of assists. Don't think I've seen a satisfactory explanation for why that changed. More shots? Fewer passes? More playmakers as line mates? The data has got to be out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LTS Posted May 4, 2016 Report Share Posted May 4, 2016 You can't turn chicken ###### into chicken salad. Let's put that in the Chopped mystery ingredients and see if it's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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