darksabre Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Is this really what's happening? The NHL is attempting to bar Scott like some trashy ex-girlfriend from a family party? It's not. So you miss the old days of enforcers, and you know the fans voted him in so there will be higher ratings, but you want to pretend Scott doesn't exist...why? That doesn't make any sense The NHL doesn't want him there not because they're ashamed of the presence of enforcers in the league, but because it makes a mockery of the ASG. So, qwk, yes, that's why the NHL doesn't want him to go, but that's not why I don't want him to go. Sorry but I think you're just wrong. The NHL is clearly embarrassed by John Scott. They wouldn't have gone to these lengths otherwise. Fighting is a talent in the NHL. It has been for a long time. Maybe the NHL could have been honest with itself and added a Hardest Punch competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) No. As much as I want the ASG to be meaningful in respect to a player's career, it's foolish to think it is when there is a fan vote. However, among the players it is. Not only that, it also comes with a free vacation, the national spot light, and the prestige of telling everyone you are in fact, an All-Star. Is that prestige something that should be factored into a HOF vote? No. But it's foolish to say it doesn't matter in reality to those around someone who goes. The NHL should make a pre-qualified list. The fact that they haven't isn't surprising given the fact that it's the same organization with multiple lockouts and one that has let the same team win the lottery 4/6 years and 3 years in a row Is talent the only factor for an All-Star? Yes, yes it is. I mean, the event has an entire day allocated to a Skill Competition. Talent isn't just pure goal scoring, as ROR and Bergeron's will tell you, and it's not just how fast you can skate. Should Scott really be rewarded for being a boxer on skates? Well, in fact he is, with a nice paycheck and a career in hockey. This isn't the House of Representatives where every category gets a portion of representatives based on their value. I don't care if he represents the fighter, he doesn't belong. Should it be? An argument could be made for that. But the NHL ASG ABSOLUTELY isn't purely about talent & never was. If it was purely about talent, you wouldn't see every team get guaranteed at least 1 participant. The league wants every fan be able to watch at least 1 player from their favorite team - not the HoR, just the Teams of Representatives. Scott isn't Az's best player (not even when he was on the team ;)) but neither is any F that would now be sent in his stead. Their best player, and the only one that would be in a truly meritorious ASG is OEL. He, by the substitution rules, is not eligible to go because the D for the Smythe is already set. Edited January 20, 2016 by Taro T Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Sorry but I think you're just wrong. The NHL is clearly embarrassed by John Scott. They wouldn't have gone to these lengths otherwise. Fighting is a talent in the NHL. It has been for a long time. Maybe the NHL could have been honest with itself and added a Hardest Punch competition. Well you misread my post, because I said they're embarrassed by his presence at the ASG, just not his presence in the league. Fighting is a talent, period. It's not exclusive to hockey. Any dude 6'4 can throw on skates with the grace of a gorilla and beat people up for a living. The ASG is meant to showcase NHL talents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Well you misread my post, because I said they're embarrassed by his presence at the ASG, just not his presence in the league. Fighting is a talent, period. It's not exclusive to hockey. Any dude 6'4 can throw on skates with the grace of a gorilla and beat people up for a living. The ASG is meant to showcase NHL talents Fighting is an NHL talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sodbuster Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Well you misread my post, because I said they're embarrassed by his presence at the ASG, just not his presence in the league. Fighting is a talent, period. It's not exclusive to hockey. Any dude 6'4 can throw on skates with the grace of a gorilla and beat people up for a living. The ASG is meant to showcase NHL talents To be fair, skating isn't exclusive to hockey either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Fighting is an NHL talent. Much to Anthony Duclair's chagrin. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Should it be? An argument could be made for that. But the NHL ASG ABSOLUTELY isn't purely about talent & never was. If it was purely about talent, you wouldn't see every team get guaranteed at least 1 participant. The league wants every fan be able to watch at least 1 player from their favorite team - not the HoR, just the Teams of Representatives. Scott isn't Az's best player (not evrn when he was on the team ;)) but neither is any F that would now be sent in his stead. Their best player, and the only one that would e in a truly meritorious ASG is OEL. He, by the substitution rules, is not eligible to go because the D for the Smythe is already set. So it's 90% about talent, and 10% about weather or not someone from your team is already going. That's a concession I can make, because it allows for the best player of every team to go, and makes the league closer as a whole. OEL gets a bad break, so does Risto. They're victims of the fan vote (well, OEL definitely is at least). Domi should have went. You're telling me you wouldn't want to see Domi in a 3-3 OT competition? A rising star and the future of that franchise? Fighting is an NHL talent. No, it's not. Where is our precious Kaleta then? To be fair, skating isn't exclusive to hockey either. A good point. But the maneuvers and skill of skating with a stick/puck are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 No, it's not. Where is our precious Kaleta then? What's your point? Kaleta wasn't even a good fighter. The NHL can't hide from its history. It can't hide from its reputation. It can't hide from the fact that it has allowed guys to make careers out of doing anything other than playing hockey. John Scott should be able to go to an all-star game because Rob Ray played in the NHL for 14 years! Putting skates on and punching another player in the face is an NHL skill. It is impossible to argue otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 So it's 90% about talent, and 10% about weather or not someone from your team is already going. That's a concession I can make, because it allows for the best player of every team to go, and makes the league closer as a whole. OEL gets a bad break, so does Risto. They're victims of the fan vote (well, OEL definitely is at least). Domi should have went. You're telling me you wouldn't want to see Domi in a 3-3 OT competition? A rising star and the future of that franchise? No, it's not. Where is our precious Kaleta then? A good point. But the maneuvers and skill of skating with a stick/puck are. No, Domi should not have gone. There are several better forwards that in a meritorious system would have gone before Domi. AND, considering this is the NHL Doan probably would have been the replacement in this particular case. (Though I would have replaced Scott w/ Domi or Duclair had he been banned from the game.) And the league could've & should've put OEL in ahead of Burns or Giordano - oddly, all 3 D have another teammate in the game as well. Then, had they decided later they wanted to shaft Scott, thec2nd highest vote getter could've been named captain. They couldn't even get their intended hosing of him right to even that degree. Boneheads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) What's your point? Kaleta wasn't even a good fighter. The NHL can't hide from its history. It can't hide from its reputation. It can't hide from the fact that it has allowed guys to make careers out of doing anything other than playing hockey. John Scott should be able to go to an all-star game because ###### Rob Ray played in the NHL for 14 years! Putting skates on and punching another player in the face is an NHL skill. It is impossible to argue otherwise. My point is, if fighting was an NHL skill, then how come there are more than a dozen teams without brute enforcers any more? That is the only purpose Scott and Kaleta ever had. Kaleta can fight better than the best fighting forward on a handful of teams in this league, and yet he's in the AHL. At least Des can score and skate I really don't understand how I can explain it otherwise, the NHL is not trying to hide from its history. I'm sure enforcers are still in the HOF, and they routinely highlight big hits and the fights of old in their NBCSN broadcasts when showcasing rivalries. No, Domi should not have gone. There are several better forwards that in a meritorious system would have gone before Domi. AND, considering this is the NHL Doan probably would have been the replacement in this particular case. (Though I would have replaced Scott w/ Domi or Duclair had he been banned from the game.) And the league could've & should've put OEL in ahead of Burns or Giordano - oddly, all 3 D have another teammate in the game as well. Then, had they decided later they wanted to shaft Scott, thec2nd highest vote getter could've been named captain. They couldn't even get their intended hosing of him right to even that degree. Boneheads. All fair points, and ones I can't really argue. I want a committee to pick the ASG participants. Edited January 20, 2016 by WildCard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 My point is, if fighting was an NHL skill, then how come there are more than a dozen teams without brute enforcers any more? That is the only purpose Scott and Kaleta ever had. Kaleta can fight better than the best fighting forward on a handful of teams in this league, and yet he's in the AHL. At least Des can score and skate I really don't understand how I can explain it otherwise, the NHL is not trying to hide from its history. I'm sure enforcers are still in the HOF, and they routinely highlight big hits and the fights of old in their NBCSN broadcasts when showcasing rivalries. Of course they can't. You're proving my point by exposing your contradictions. The NHL trying to strong arm Scott out of the ASG is ridiculous. It's flat out hypocrisy. You can't tell an enforcer that he can't go to an ASG while simultaneously celebrating the rich history of NHL face punching. And you can't tell the fans their vote isn't valid either, while selling the side show. The era of the true enforcer might be fading, but fighting isn't going anywhere. Until the NHL eliminates fighting, fighting will be an NHL skill. And punishing Scott for playing the NHL game is absurd. The man has earned his entry by being a good soldier. He's as much the NHL as Jagr is. Of course, the NHL could change that if they really wanted to. But they'll settle for half measures like picking on Scott instead. It backfired. They had to admit they made a mistake. They KNOW that John Scott belongs there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sabel79 Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 No. As much as I want the ASG to be meaningful in respect to a player's career, it's foolish to think it is when there is a fan vote. However, among the players it is. Not only that, it also comes with a free vacation, the national spot light, and the prestige of telling everyone you are in fact, an All-Star. Is that prestige something that should be factored into a HOF vote? No. But it's foolish to say it doesn't matter in reality to those around someone who goes. You clearly value the ASG much, much higher than the players do. Give it a poll, I bet 100% of the players would tell you they'd rather not bother with it. Corsby and Jagr are the only ones (that come to mind) with the stroke to actually not bother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Of course they can't. You're proving my point by exposing your contradictions. The NHL trying to strong arm Scott out of the ASG is ridiculous. It's flat out hypocrisy. You can't tell an enforcer that he can't go to an ASG while simultaneously celebrating the rich history of NHL face punching. And you can't tell the fans their vote isn't valid either, while selling the side show. The era of the true enforcer might be fading, but fighting isn't going anywhere. Until the NHL eliminates fighting, fighting will be an NHL skill. And punishing Scott for playing the NHL game is absurd. The man has earned his entry by being a good soldier. He's as much the NHL as Jagr is. Of course, the NHL could change that if they really wanted to. But they'll settle for half measures like picking on Scott instead. It backfired. They had to admit they made a mistake. They KNOW that John Scott belongs there. :lol: :lol: I have no contradictions here, just fine lines. There is a difference between using your history to amp up a game and celebrate the history of the league and allowing John Scott the same status as the likes of Kane and Jaromir Jagr. You know, actual NHL talent. And yes, they can do both simultaneously. That is the primary purpose of the ASG, to separate and highlight actual talent. The ASG is not a celebration of the league's history. There's no hitting in the ASG, and so there's no need for an enforcer. Is that not his primary purpose? To protect the actual talent on the ice from big hits and other goons like himself? I love the 'good soldier' argument. Mike Weber should get $6X6 for his dedication, Kaleta should be in the NHL for his loyalty to his home town, and John Scott deserves to be an AS because he fights people. Good soldier? What exactly has he done? He does his job, nothing more. I mean, seriously. He's not Patty, out there perpetuating the vitality of the sport through medical advances and knowledge, and he's not Fetisov or Mogilny, fleeing their home countries and allowing the league to grow global by standing up to a tyrannical government. Please, don't ever put John Scott in the same discussion as Jaromir Jagr. One is 4th all time in points and arguably the best RW to ever play hockey. The other can't skate. You want to know why loyalty has no bearing in the ASG? Look at Jagr and Scott. Jagr has talent and belongs, despite his jumping to the KHL and back The league screwed up by allowing the fan vote. I've agreed to that, and they have nobody to blame but themselves for the presence of Scott. But let's not act like he's anywhere near the equivalent of Patrick Kane and Jaromir Jagr. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
inkman Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Former NHLer Brian McGratton not doing so well http://uproxx.com/sports/brian-mcgrattan-knockout-fight-san-diego-gulls/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WildCard Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) Scott's addition also very likely loses his teammates a combined $1m. The winning team of the 3-3 tournament receives $1m http://www.northjersey.com/sports/hockey/nhl-all-star-game-gets-major-changes-1.1460108 Edited January 20, 2016 by WildCard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Huckleberry Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorny Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Sorry but I think you're just wrong. The NHL is clearly embarrassed by John Scott. They wouldn't have gone to these lengths otherwise. Fighting is a talent in the NHL. It has been for a long time. Maybe the NHL could have been honest with itself and added a Hardest Punch competition. Not a bad idea, but it would have to be the last event as players would be too woozy for the others, if not. ......................And It's usually the one with the most vodka. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 :lol: :lol: I have no contradictions here, just fine lines. There is a difference between using your history to amp up a game and celebrate the history of the league and allowing John Scott the same status as the likes of Kane and Jaromir Jagr. You know, actual NHL talent. And yes, they can do both simultaneously. That is the primary purpose of the ASG, to separate and highlight actual talent. The ASG is not a celebration of the league's history. There's no hitting in the ASG, and so there's no need for an enforcer. Is that not his primary purpose? To protect the actual talent on the ice from big hits and other goons like himself? I love the 'good soldier' argument. Mike Weber should get $6X6 for his dedication, Kaleta should be in the NHL for his loyalty to his home town, and John Scott deserves to be an AS because he fights people. Good soldier? What exactly has he done? He does his job, nothing more. I mean, seriously. He's not Patty, out there perpetuating the vitality of the sport through medical advances and knowledge, and he's not Fetisov or Mogilny, fleeing their home countries and allowing the league to grow global by standing up to a tyrannical government. Please, don't ever put John Scott in the same discussion as Jaromir Jagr. One is 4th all time in points and arguably the best RW to ever play hockey. The other can't skate. You want to know why loyalty has no bearing in the ASG? Look at Jagr and Scott. Jagr has talent and belongs, despite his jumping to the KHL and back The league screwed up by allowing the fan vote. I've agreed to that, and they have nobody to blame but themselves for the presence of Scott. But let's not act like he's anywhere near the equivalent of Patrick Kane and Jaromir Jagr. You keep using the phrase "actual talent", as if fighting isn't a talent that has a defined role in the NHL. You want to draw a line that doesn't exist. John Scott has "actual talent", and the NHL facilitates its use. Now, if the NHL suddenly decided it wanted to ban fighting and only have players in the league who can play hockey, that would make sense. But it doesn't want to ban fighting. It likes guys with John Scott's skill set. You can't have an NHL All-Star game and then ban NHL players from it. The NHL has never been about purity of ice hockey. Why should the All-Star game be any different? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 The truly sad thing is, the pricks that wanted to take their puck & go home rather than let little Johnny play w/ their precious All-Stars are going to get their best ratings in years because they were forced to relent against their will. The best part about this statement is that the ratings boost you're describing will come from an extra 50 or so people watching the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 The best part about this statement is that the ratings boost you're describing will come from an extra 50 or so people watching the game. :lol: I do expect ratings to be significantly higher this year because people want to support Scott in this matter. The league will be VERY confused next year when the ratings are even worse than normal - a 4 team 3v3 tourney that ISN'T on a pond? Who wants to watch that if there ISN'T a sideshow attached? I can just picture a disheveled Bill Daly turning to Gary Bettman after reviewing the ratings for next year's game stating "with God as my witness, I thought turkeys would watch this :censored: ." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shrader Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 :lol: I do expect ratings to be significantly higher this year because people want to support Scott in this matter. The league will be VERY confused next year when the ratings are even worse than normal - a 4 team 3v3 tourney that ISN'T on a pond? Who wants to watch that if there ISN'T a sideshow attached? I can just picture a disheveled Bill Daly turning to Gary Bettman after reviewing the ratings for next year's game stating "with God as my witness, I thought turkeys would watch this :censored: ." I just wonder which league will be the first one to get it and stop having an all star game. It's a relic of the past, made pointless by the access we have to everything today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doohickie Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 Heheh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwksndmonster Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 You can't have an NHL All-Star game and then ban NHL players from it. The NHL has never been about purity of ice hockey. Why should the All-Star game be any different? This is the crux of it for me. The NHL perfers clutching and grabbing in their actual product. Now they want to "care about talent" when it's a fake game. I don't care that some fringe All Star got passed over. Shane Doan already went to the all star game twice, him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
biodork Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 (edited) What's your point? Kaleta wasn't even a good fighter. The NHL can't hide from its history. It can't hide from its reputation. It can't hide from the fact that it has allowed guys to make careers out of doing anything other than playing hockey. John Scott should be able to go to an all-star game because ###### Rob Ray played in the NHL for 14 years! Putting skates on and punching another player in the face is an NHL skill. It is impossible to argue otherwise. Clearly you forgot this one: Edited January 20, 2016 by biodork Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted January 20, 2016 Report Share Posted January 20, 2016 This is the crux of it for me. The NHL perfers clutching and grabbing in their actual product. Now they want to "care about talent" when it's a fake game. I don't care that some fringe All Star got passed over. Shane Doan already went to the all star game twice, ###### him. Right. Either the All-Star game is about the NHL, or it's about the sanctity of the beauty of the sport of hockey. The two are not synonymous right now. The NHL provides its version of hockey and that version permits fighting, headshots, and all sorts of other garbage alongside the rest of the game. If the NHL wants to be all about talent, skill, speed, beauty, then it should make changes to do that. And the All-Star game can then reflect the brand. But the brand as it exists right now is not just about hockey. It's about guys like John Scott too. Clearly you forgot this one: I'm sure even Andrew Peters won a fight at some point :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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