SwampD Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 I said income. But if you want to go with net worth, fine. How many people are investing 4% of their net worth into making Buffalo a better place, just for the hell of it? And I have no idea what your Buffalo News comment means. I don't think the guy is doing it for the publicity. That is my point. I don't understand the hatred of this guy, at all. It makes no ###### sense whatsoever. It makes sense if you think Terry has ulterior motives, which, IMH, he probably does. If 4% is all it takes to change our minds on fracking, he stands to make a ######-ton more than that. And somebody would be in line to buy them locking you out of a chance to buy in when the tides turn. Frustrating - but just a sign that season tickets in Buffalo are probably more than 4% under-market. Oh, snap! (do the kids still say that?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 It makes sense if you think Terry has ulterior motives, which, IMH, he probably does. If 4% is all it takes to change our minds on fracking, he stands to make a ######-ton more than that. Oh, snap! (do the kids still say that?) Terry could spend his last dime here and it wouldn't convince me that fracking is safe. But as long as the state of Pennsylvania doesn't care about its people I have no problem with him doing some good to balance out the damage that is probably being done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eleven Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 It makes sense if you think Terry has ulterior motives, which, IMH, he probably does. If 4% is all it takes to change our minds on fracking, he stands to make a ######-ton more than that. Oh, snap! (do the kids still say that?) Terry could spend his last dime here and it wouldn't convince me that fracking is safe. But as long as the state of Pennsylvania doesn't care about its people I have no problem with him doing some good to balance out the damage that is probably being done. He has to be smart enough to know that NYS isn't going to care about WNY's opinion on fracking regardless of what that opinion is. When has Albany ever listened to Buffalo? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 He has to be smart enough to know that NYS isn't going to care about WNY's opinion on fracking regardless of what that opinion is. When has Albany ever listened to Buffalo? I don't expect New York to bite on fracking anyway. I think he's chasing ghosts if he is really lobbying for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 You should email Ted and ask him to slip this into his media appearances and press releases explaining the ticket increases. Because all he ever wants to talk about is how the revenue sharing is important to the financial viability of the franchise and the attractiveness of the team to some mysterious future owner. This is a bigger "can't talk about it in public" than tanking. Sending the message that low revenue teams don't really need revenue sharing would put him in the NHL doghouse. Also, Pegula no long has that huge financial interest in fracking. I'm sure he has some, but the deal was cash. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 I said income. But if you want to go with net worth, fine. How many people are investing 4% of their net worth into making Buffalo a better place, just for the hell of it? And I have no idea what your Buffalo News comment means. I don't think the guy is doing it for the publicity. That is my point. I don't understand the hatred of this guy, at all. It makes no ###### sense whatsoever. And I said....a guy worth $4 billion invested in treasuries yielding 3% is making $120 million a year in income. I'm sure he's pulling in a lot more in the gas business. He has "made Buffalo better" by constructing a for-profit facility that is synergistic for his supposed main business, and is enjoying millions in public money to do so. My example was, what if I "made Buffalo better" buy purchasing a vacant $40,000 house on Bailey Ave., fixed it up, and provided quality low-cost housing for a dozen University Students who come in from out of town to attend UB and thus add to the local economy? Do I get a parade? Do I get a full page ad in the News praising me by name? No!!!! But proportionally, I did just as much if not more for the community.....and that goes on every day..... Great...he's investing money in the area...that's nice. For a guy who stated that he had no interest in local politics or real estate development and his only goal was to win Stanley Cups, the major civic asset that he is a steward for has been a laughingstock, and those who want to hold him accountable get flamed by those praising him for the exact thing he said he had no interest in while in % terms, is the proverbial drop of arsenic tainted drinking water (how'd that get in there?) in the bucket for him.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 I think he's saying that Pegula is spending as much money as he can, and more, on the Sabres. He is spending even more than that to make Buffalo a better place. So what if he raised ticket prices? I'm sure there is some professional peer pressure involved in that anyway, and he gave more than that back in the form of rebates. Nothing to see here. He's not spending as much as he can, not anymore. That's a cheap shot though. He has spent. I have no beef with that. Does HarborCenter fall under the category of philanthropy? Making Buffalo a better place? If that was the motive, we would have Pegula High Schools of Excellence or Pegula Medical Center instead, wouldn't we? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 I think he's saying that Pegula is spending as much money as he can, and more, on the Sabres. He is spending even more than that to make Buffalo a better place. So what if he raised ticket prices? I'm sure there is some professional peer pressure involved in that anyway, and he gave more than that back in the form of rebates. Nothing to see here. Larry Quinn gave away 2.5% rebates......22% increase in ticket prices ago........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 This is a bigger "can't talk about it in public" than tanking. Sending the message that low revenue teams don't really need revenue sharing would put him in the NHL doghouse. Also, Pegula no long has that huge financial interest in fracking. I'm sure he has some, but the deal was cash. I believe Terry himself hinted that the other owners might not like his free spending ways. Why would they consider Buffalo a small market team in need of their help, especiallly with Terry's bragging on Day One — which included a statement to the effect that he didn't want to be the rich guy showing up in town and raising ticket prices? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampD Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 I don't expect New York to bite on fracking anyway. I think he's chasing ghosts if he is really lobbying for it. As I have stated before, anyone who doesn't think that fracking will eventually happen is fooling themselves. Rich people usually get what they want and us 'Mericans loves us our energy consumption. It will happen. As long as we get something back from it I'm fine with it because it's better than getting nothing back. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 I believe Terry himself hinted that the other owners might not like his free spending ways. Why would they consider Buffalo a small market team in need of their help, especiallly with Terry's bragging on Day One — which included a statement to the effect that he didn't want to be the rich guy showing up in town and raising ticket prices? You have revenue sharing convoluted into some-kind of charitable idea. Why do they think Buffalo is in need of help? They don't. Revenue sharing isn't charity. It is the league framework. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 You have revenue sharing convoluted into some-kind of charitable idea. Why do they think Buffalo is in need of help? They don't. Revenue sharing isn't charity. It is the league framework. :death: I don't know what revenue sharing is, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IKnowPhysics Posted May 10, 2014 Report Share Posted May 10, 2014 According to section 49.3(d) of the CBA, teams that have gate receipts less than 75% of the league average are eligible for revenue sharing, as subject by the Revenue Sharing Oversight Comittee. Clubs that are eligible must submit a business plan to the RSOC, and funds are subject to plan approval and successful execution of the plans. According to Forbes, Sabres are 20th in revenue. The total gate receipts for the NHL are $906M, averaging $30.2M. Sabres gate receipts are $22M, 72.8% of the league average. That makes us eligible for revenue sharing, but those funds are subject to providing RSOC with a plan ans successfully executing that plan. Hence the Sabres' ticket price increase. Note that gate receipt increases trail ticket price increases by about 1%, so the Sabres effectively have planned to increase ticket prices 4%, expecting a gate receipt increase of 3%. This plan, added to the 72.8%, safely meets the required 75%. Within 1%, they're executing the plan that RSOC required of them to be eligible for revenue sharing. I couldn't find the revenue sharing amounts, but it's definitely more than the planned ($22M x 3%) $0.66M increase of the gate receipts. And the season ticket holders, who pay for much of the increase in ticket prices, are getting rebates in SabreBucks to the tune of 6.5%, which by my math is probably between $1M and $1.5M, more than the actual increase in gate receipts. I think it's a good circumvention of the CBA: increase the gate receipts to appease the league and remain eligible for revenue sharing and give the money back in rebates to season ticket holders. The only downsides are that only STH's are benefitted and rebate are only in SabreBucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Claude_Verret Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 According to section 49.3(d) of the CBA, teams that have gate receipts less than 75% of the league average are eligible for revenue sharing, as subject by the Revenue Sharing Oversight Comittee. Clubs that are eligible must submit a business plan to the RSOC, and funds are subject to plan approval and successful execution of the plans. According to Forbes, Sabres are 20th in revenue. The total gate receipts for the NHL are $906M, averaging $30.2M. Sabres gate receipts are $22M, 72.8% of the league average. That makes us eligible for revenue sharing, but those funds are subject to providing RSOC with a plan ans successfully executing that plan. Hence the Sabres' ticket price increase. Note that gate receipt increases trail ticket price increases by about 1%, so the Sabres effectively have planned to increase ticket prices 4%, expecting a gate receipt increase of 3%. This plan, added to the 72.8%, safely meets the required 75%. Within 1%, they're executing the plan that RSOC required of them to be eligible for revenue sharing. I couldn't find the revenue sharing amounts, but it's definitely more than the planned ($22M x 3%) $0.66M increase of the gate receipts. And the season ticket holders, who pay for much of the increase in ticket prices, are getting rebates in SabreBucks to the tune of 6.5%, which by my math is probably between $1M and $1.5M, more than the actual increase in gate receipts. I think it's a good circumvention of the CBA: increase the gate receipts to appease the league and remain eligible for revenue sharing and give the money back in rebates to season ticket holders. The only downsides are that only STH's are benefitted and rebate are only in SabreBucks. Pegula bad!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andrew Amerk Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Pegula bad!!! Nuh-uh! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Within 1%, they're executing the plan that RSOC required of them to be eligible for revenue sharing. I couldn't find the revenue sharing amounts, but it's definitely more than the planned ($22M x 3%) $0.66M increase of the gate receipts. And the season ticket holders, who pay for much of the increase in ticket prices, are getting rebates in SabreBucks to the tune of 6.5%, which by my math is probably between $1M and $1.5M, more than the actual increase in gate receipts. So what is the gross profit on merchandise sales? Let's say the gross profit is 30%....so by your math....$1.5 million plus $660K at a 30% gross equals.......a $648,000 increase in FORCED profits. BUT WAIT!!!...There's more!!!! The Sabres get to write off that rebate they give to the fans as an expense. Now.....when they write the whole thing off....what are the odds that fans spend all $2+ million of those dollars? I know I have gift cards MIA all over the place or have a % left on them that isn't worth. Also.....with those FORCED PROFIT rebates....what are the odds that ticket holders spend ONLY the amount on the card during their purchases. What is a reasonable estimation of added revenue and profit because of extra visits to use these rebates? So.....what we have is.... 1) The Sabres write off the rebates up front, adding to the bottom line in addition to the increase in gate revenue 2) The Sabres force those rebates to be used on high profit margin items at a facility under their control 3) The Sabres receive extra revenue and profits by additional purchases on top of the forced profit rebate Net/Net....the Sabres not only add close to a 20% increase in ticket prices on season ticket holders since Pegula took over....but structure a 4 pronged system to maximize profits on all levels of NHL revenue sharing/ Tax writeoffs/ Forced added revenue and profit / and additional revenue on profit at an undetermined level in conjunction with using forced profit rebates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byebye Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) And I said....a guy worth $4 billion invested in treasuries yielding 3% is making $120 million a year in income. I'm sure he's pulling in a lot more in the gas business. He has "made Buffalo better" by constructing a for-profit facility that is synergistic for his supposed main business, and is enjoying millions in public money to do so. My example was, what if I "made Buffalo better" buy purchasing a vacant $40,000 house on Bailey Ave., fixed it up, and provided quality low-cost housing for a dozen University Students who come in from out of town to attend UB and thus add to the local economy? Do I get a parade? Do I get a full page ad in the News praising me by name? No!!!! But proportionally, I did just as much if not more for the community.....and that goes on every day..... Great...he's investing money in the area...that's nice. For a guy who stated that he had no interest in local politics or real estate development and his only goal was to win Stanley Cups, the major civic asset that he is a steward for has been a laughingstock, and those who want to hold him accountable get flamed by those praising him for the exact thing he said he had no interest in while in % terms, is the proverbial drop of arsenic tainted drinking water (how'd that get in there?) in the bucket for him.... I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, my guess is, you didn't buy a $40,000 house and flip it for university students. If you did, I say to you; after these broke kids pay your mortgage you turn around and sell the house and make a profit. Should I call you down for that reason? See where I'm going with this? ................................................................................................ Look around the league. Look at other ticket prices. Look at other owners and what they have done for their community! Don't get my point? Lather rinse repeat until you do get it Edited May 11, 2014 by Naulter8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 According to section 49.3(d) of the CBA, teams that have gate receipts less than 75% of the league average are eligible for revenue sharing, as subject by the Revenue Sharing Oversight Comittee. Clubs that are eligible must submit a business plan to the RSOC, and funds are subject to plan approval and successful execution of the plans. According to Forbes, Sabres are 20th in revenue. The total gate receipts for the NHL are $906M, averaging $30.2M. Sabres gate receipts are $22M, 72.8% of the league average. That makes us eligible for revenue sharing, but those funds are subject to providing RSOC with a plan ans successfully executing that plan. Hence the Sabres' ticket price increase. Note that gate receipt increases trail ticket price increases by about 1%, so the Sabres effectively have planned to increase ticket prices 4%, expecting a gate receipt increase of 3%. This plan, added to the 72.8%, safely meets the required 75%. Within 1%, they're executing the plan that RSOC required of them to be eligible for revenue sharing. I couldn't find the revenue sharing amounts, but it's definitely more than the planned ($22M x 3%) $0.66M increase of the gate receipts. And the season ticket holders, who pay for much of the increase in ticket prices, are getting rebates in SabreBucks to the tune of 6.5%, which by my math is probably between $1M and $1.5M, more than the actual increase in gate receipts. I think it's a good circumvention of the CBA: increase the gate receipts to appease the league and remain eligible for revenue sharing and give the money back in rebates to season ticket holders. The only downsides are that only STH's are benefitted and rebate are only in SabreBucks. Thanks iknowphysics, Great summary. What some here don't realize is the revenue oversight committee is made by the players. This isn't a voluntary program. Failure to maximize revenues hurts the players, that's why it is in the CBA. Buffalo can't just opt out, or not have a plan to increase revenue, or the club would be in breach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PASabreFan Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 So what is the gross profit on merchandise sales? Let's say the gross profit is 30%....so by your math....$1.5 million plus $660K at a 30% gross equals.......a $648,000 increase in FORCED profits. BUT WAIT!!!...There's more!!!! The Sabres get to write off that rebate they give to the fans as an expense. Now.....when they write the whole thing off....what are the odds that fans spend all $2+ million of those dollars? I know I have gift cards MIA all over the place or have a % left on them that isn't worth. Also.....with those FORCED PROFIT rebates....what are the odds that ticket holders spend ONLY the amount on the card during their purchases. What is a reasonable estimation of added revenue and profit because of extra visits to use these rebates? So.....what we have is.... 1) The Sabres write off the rebates up front, adding to the bottom line in addition to the increase in gate revenue 2) The Sabres force those rebates to be used on high profit margin items at a facility under their control 3) The Sabres receive extra revenue and profits by additional purchases on top of the forced profit rebate Net/Net....the Sabres not only add close to a 20% increase in ticket prices on season ticket holders since Pegula took over....but structure a 4 pronged system to maximize profits on all levels of NHL revenue sharing/ Tax writeoffs/ Forced added revenue and profit / and additional revenue on profit at an undetermined level in conjunction with using forced profit rebates. Yep. There's no such thing as a free lunch. Corporations are people. Evil, slimy people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LastPommerFan Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 The buffalo sabres have not made a net profit since Pegula bought the team. All of your base are belong to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
X. Benedict Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Yep. There's no such thing as a free lunch. Corporations are people. Evil, slimy people. What about the players? Why would the players approve of any plan that doesn't maximize revenue? The Sabres don't have to have a plan to submit to other owners, the owners don't care,, they have to have a plan to submit to the players union. They need a plan to submit to account for revenue shortfallls. What exactly do you want Pegula to do here? Submit a plan to the players union that suggests that they will make up for any revenue shortfalls with a new stream of bumper sticker and T-shirt sales? What ideas do you have for compliance? If I'm in the players union I'm making damn sure ticket prices reflect demand. Half that revenue stream belongs to mine and me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 (edited) What about the players? Why would the players approve of any plan that doesn't maximize revenue? The Sabres don't have to have a plan to submit to other owners, the owners don't care,, they have to have a plan to submit to the players union. They need a plan to submit to account for revenue shortfallls. What exactly do you want Pegula to do here? Submit a plan to the players union that suggests that they will make up for any revenue shortfalls with a new stream of bumper sticker and T-shirt sales? What ideas do you have for compliance? If I'm in the players union I'm making damn sure ticket prices reflect demand. Half that revenue stream belongs to mine and me. I don't even know why you're bothering. Even if you change PA's mind on this he'll still find something to hate Pegula for. His mistrust of big money is indiscriminate. Edited May 11, 2014 by d4rksabre Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 I don't even know why you're bothering. Even if you change PA's mind on this he'll still find something to hate Pegula for. His mistrust of big money is indiscriminate. As it is for most WNYers. If he drinks to excess, like many of us as well, he might want to think about changing his name to WNYSabresFan. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Dwight Drane Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 The buffalo sabres have not made a net profit since Pegula bought the team. All of your base are belong to us. Do you have access to those numbers? I don't. I thought the Sabres were controlled by an LLC....which is a pass through. At least that's what some have said here. Joe Battista is an employee of East Resources, not the Buffalo Sabres, yet he continues to act and say things like he is a Buffalo Sabres employee. Cliff Benson is a Sabres employee....yet he's flying around PA working on Penn St. deals, Republican fundraising, etc. Not really sure I've seen him make a decision on the actual team. It is what it is. The rebate increase was nice....but yet again people want to throw a parade. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darksabre Posted May 11, 2014 Report Share Posted May 11, 2014 Do you have access to those numbers? I don't. I thought the Sabres were controlled by an LLC....which is a pass through. At least that's what some have said here. Joe Battista is an employee of East Resources, not the Buffalo Sabres, yet he continues to act and say things like he is a Buffalo Sabres employee. Cliff Benson is a Sabres employee....yet he's flying around PA working on Penn St. deals, Republican fundraising, etc. Not really sure I've seen him make a decision on the actual team. It is what it is. The rebate increase was nice....but yet again people want to throw a parade. Do you have access to those numbers? I don't. I thought the Sabres were controlled by an LLC....which is a pass through. At least that's what some have said here. Joe Battista is an employee of East Resources, not the Buffalo Sabres, yet he continues to act and say things like he is a Buffalo Sabres employee. Cliff Benson is a Sabres employee....yet he's flying around PA working on Penn St. deals, Republican fundraising, etc. Not really sure I've seen him make a decision on the actual team. It is what it is. The rebate increase was nice....but yet again people want to throw a parade. No one is throwing a parade. Stop exaggerating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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