Around the NHL 2011-2012

[nfreeman]

Someone please tell me why when we have 4,871 defenders chomping at the bit to play for the sabres we are discussing trading the limited number of forwards we have for yet another defender? It doesn't make sense.... not to mention did everyone forget this guy named Tyler Myers? He is still 4.5 years younger than Weber and showed major signs in the playoffs he will be as good as Weber in the next 2-4 years so no, I don't want Weber. I would rather sign Myers long term and not give up anything for a player who is basically already on the roster... AKA I vote for Myers.

 

Also, hockey crap came up with our top 10 prospects and I think 6 are defenders and also I find it interesting that Catenacci makes their list http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=37516

 

Catenacci is a player whose progress I look forward to watching.

When Anaheim already had Scott Niedermayer and Chris Pronger became available, what did Anaheim do? And what were the results?

[LGR4GM]

When Anaheim already had Scott Niedermayer and Chris Pronger became available, what did Anaheim do? And what were the results?

they traded some crap for him.... Weber would lose you Vanek and Kassian/maybe Pysyk/Mcnabb, Sheistal and a 1st.... the sabres dont have the depth anaheim did or the depth at defensive the sabres already have now.

 

Also your right Anaheim then won the cup so I see your point.

[BuffaloSoldier2010]

I'm going to have to take KTN's side on this one.

 

We all know Shea Weber is is phenomenal player, but as of right now, we don't need his services. At least not at the price he would command. Odds are, he'll get traded before he fits unrestricted free agency, but if he does make it to the open market, I'd say that should be the one and only time we make an attempt to sign him.

 

If we somehow manage to become a force in the playoffs the next couple years, who knows, we could throw an Erhoff-esque deal at him, and he might take it, but i firmly believe trading any of our key top players for him would be a mistake. If we were talking about an all league center, that would be another story entirely. As it stands, the need for that talent in that position (Defense) when compared to our needs at others (Center) just doesn't make me want to jump at a trade for Weber.

[BetweenThePipes00]

they traded some crap for him.... Weber would lose you Vanek and Kassian/maybe Pysyk/Mcnabb, Sheistal and a 1st.... the sabres dont have the depth anaheim did or the depth at defensive the sabres already have now.

 

Also your right Anaheim then won the cup so I see your point.

 

Let's look at the "crap:"

Joffrey Lupul: Hindsight may make him crap, but at the time he was a 22-year old coming off of a 53-point season and a recent top-10 pick. Sabres comparable: Ennis.

Ladislav Smid: Twenty-year old D-man, also a top-10 pick, coming off a 28-point, plus-14 season in the AHL Sabres comparable: McNabb or Pysyk.

Plus draft picks: Two first rounders and a second rounder.

And that was for a 32-year old.

 

Obviously, it's a lot of "potential," much of which has not panned out ... but it's also 5 high-end picks or prospects, hardly "crap." Vanek obviously is established and more valuable than potential guys, but he's also much more expensive, and they'd have to move salary anyway. Also, Nashville needs to get immediate help if they deal Weber, guys that can help them stay in the playoffs ... they are not taking a first-year guy and four picks/prospects I don't think.

 

Whatever the case, forget the context of Weber ... would you really consider Ennis, Pysyk, two more first rounders and a second rounder crap? I would call that a pretty high price for anyone ... worth paying for some guys, for sure, but certainly not crap.

[nfreeman]

I'm going to have to take KTN's side on this one.

 

We all know Shea Weber is is phenomenal player, but as of right now, we don't need his services. At least not at the price he would command. Odds are, he'll get traded before he fits unrestricted free agency, but if he does make it to the open market, I'd say that should be the one and only time we make an attempt to sign him.

 

If we somehow manage to become a force in the playoffs the next couple years, who knows, we could throw an Erhoff-esque deal at him, and he might take it, but i firmly believe trading any of our key top players for him would be a mistake. If we were talking about an all league center, that would be another story entirely. As it stands, the need for that talent in that position (Defense) when compared to our needs at others (Center) just doesn't make me want to jump at a trade for Weber.

There are a number of posters whose issue with this (admittedly unlikely) trade proposal seems to be that the Sabres don't need another defenseman, even if he is an elite player. I would've thought that the Niedermayer/Pronger example would've put that theory to bed, but it seems to be lingering.

 

Bottom line is that there is always room for an elite defenseman. Having 2 of them isn't like having 2 elite goalies. Even the best defensemen only play 24-27 minutes per game -- and there are plenty of injuries. Even if Myers turns into a great defenseman (which hasn't happened yet, although I think it will), wouldn't it be nice to have either Myers or Weber on the ice for the Sabres for almost the entire game? This was what Anaheim did when they won the Cup. It was what they built their team around, and it worked.

 

Put another way: if the Sabres were to subtract Vanek from their roster, add Weber and then trade Sekera, Leopold or MAG plus something else for a decent forward (who wouldn't be as good as Vanek -- but remember that the Sabres were able to get Regehr for Byron and Butler), would the Sabres have improved their team?

 

Let's look at the "crap:"

Joffrey Lupul: Hindsight may make him crap, but at the time he was a 22-year old coming off of a 53-point season and a recent top-10 pick. Sabres comparable: Ennis.

Ladislav Smid: Twenty-year old D-man, also a top-10 pick, coming off a 28-point, plus-14 season in the AHL Sabres comparable: McNabb or Pysyk.

Plus draft picks: Two first rounders and a second rounder.

And that was for a 32-year old.

 

Obviously, it's a lot of "potential," much of which has not panned out ... but it's also 5 high-end picks or prospects, hardly "crap." Vanek obviously is established and more valuable than potential guys, but he's also much more expensive, and they'd have to move salary anyway. Also, Nashville needs to get immediate help if they deal Weber, guys that can help them stay in the playoffs ... they are not taking a first-year guy and four picks/prospects I don't think.

 

Whatever the case, forget the context of Weber ... would you really consider Ennis, Pysyk, two more first rounders and a second rounder crap? I would call that a pretty high price for anyone ... worth paying for some guys, for sure, but certainly not crap.

Good post.

[BuffaloSoldier2010]

There are a number of posters whose issue with this (admittedly unlikely) trade proposal seems to be that the Sabres don't need another defenseman, even if he is an elite player. I would've thought that the Niedermayer/Pronger example would've put that theory to bed, but it seems to be lingering.

 

Bottom line is that there is always room for an elite defenseman. Having 2 of them isn't like having 2 elite goalies. Even the best defensemen only play 24-27 minutes per game -- and there are plenty of injuries. Even if Myers turns into a great defenseman (which hasn't happened yet, although I think it will), wouldn't it be nice to have either Myers or Weber on the ice for the Sabres for almost the entire game? This was what Anaheim did when they won the Cup. It was what they built their team around, and it worked.

 

Put another way: if the Sabres were to subtract Vanek from their roster, add Weber and then trade Sekera, Leopold or MAG plus something else for a decent forward (who wouldn't be as good as Vanek -- but remember that the Sabres were able to get Regehr for Byron and Butler), would the Sabres have improved their team?

 

 

Good post.

 

They also had Ryan Getzlaf, Teemu Selanne, Correy Perry, and Dustin Penner.

 

You can stress your point all you want, but trading away our top gun to augment a position that is arguably already our strongest depth wise seems to be a fools move. Anaheim retained their skilled forwards up front, which made it easier for them to give up what they gave for Pronger. In that case it was the smart move, but we just don't have the scoring depth, or the talent we need up the middle to give any winger we may bring in to replace vanek the opportunity to come close to what he does every year.

 

You'd be gambling an awful lot of our talent up front to once again, shore up a blueline that doesn't look all that bad as it stand now.

 

As i said before, in two years, Weber will be a UFA, if Nashville doesn't trade him before then, and at that point, I would be all for taking a run at him. It is simply not worth what he would dislodge from the roster at this point in time. If we sign him as a free agent it will cost us MONEY, which we happen to have a surplus of with our new owner. At that point in time, i am sure management will do whatever they need to get us under the cap and accommodate his hit, but until that point in time, i see no reason why we should trade key pieces of our offense, especially when we have no guarantee of having him locked up long term.

[shrader]

All of this from a hypothetical scenario?

[BuffaloSoldier2010]

All of this from a hypothetical scenario?

It's August 11, what do you want from us? :lol:

[darksabre]

It's August 11, what do you want from us? :lol:

 

Go sit outside and have a beer, it's nice out. :beer:

[nfreeman]

All of this from a hypothetical scenario?

It's August 11, what do you want from us? :lol:

Go sit outside and have a beer, it's nice out. :beer:

The point is well taken. I've probably got about half a dozen posts on this myself. I will say that I find the question of whether the Sabres should pursue an elite defenseman who is reasonably likely to be available in trade, even if it means giving up Vanek, much more interesting than the question of whether the Sabres should pursue an elite player (Malkin, Stamkos, Staal, etc.) whom I think there is NFW will be available.

 

I might even start a poll...

[BuffaloSoldier2010]

The point is well taken. I've probably got about half a dozen posts on this myself. I will say that I find the question of whether the Sabres should pursue an elite defenseman who is reasonably likely to be available in trade, even if it means giving up Vanek, much more interesting than the question of whether the Sabres should pursue an elite player (Malkin, Stamkos, Staal, etc.) whom I think there is NFW will be available.

 

I might even start a poll...

Agreed, and as long as people don't get nasty about it, it's definitely an interesting discussion.

[thesportsbuff]

Here's a Sabres/Bills headline round up post... probably nothing you guys haven't already read about, but check it out if you're interested! TheSportsBuff Weekly Round Up

[waldo]

Context: The only guy that Webers team would consider in a trade is Vanek?

 

So you trade a young, not yet in his prime winger, with 50+ goal, 100 point potential, if you can find a #1 playmaking center, who is a key part of your pp, a proven producer in the playoffs, costs you $7.1 million and who plays on a team that has a defense consisting of Ehrhoff, Regehr, and the potential of Meyers, Weber, Graghani, Sekerra, Leopold and a loaded to the gills AHL system.

 

 

For Weber, a franchise defenseman who will end up costing you 8.5 if you can sign him long term and if you cannot, the trade looks silly. Then , either way, you have to go sign Myers.

 

I got it.

[nfreeman]

Context: The only guy that Webers team would consider in a trade is Vanek?

 

So you trade a young, not yet in his prime winger, with 50+ goal, 100 point potential, if you can find a #1 playmaking center, who is a key part of your pp, a proven producer in the playoffs, costs you $7.1 million and who plays on a team that has a defense consisting of Ehrhoff, Regehr, and the potential of Meyers, Weber, Graghani, Sekerra, Leopold and a loaded to the gills AHL system.

 

 

For Weber, a franchise defenseman who will end up costing you 8.5 if you can sign him long term and if you cannot, the trade looks silly. Then you have to go sign Myers.

 

I got it.

Well, the Vanek "context" is an assumption to support having the discussion. I'm certainly open to discussing alternatives, but they need to be realistic -- ie Nashville isn't going to part with Weber for Boyes and Leopold. They are going to want top-line scoring talent. I agree that a long-term contract with Weber would be a necessary part of the deal.

 

As for Vanek and Weber: I think Vanek is not in the top 30 players in the NHL, while I think Weber is in the top half dozen. I also think that if the opportunity to snag a truly elite player presents itself, the Sabres need to jump on it. Finally, I think that Weber would make the Sabres substantially better immediately, while the young defensemen you reference will take much longer and perhaps will never do so -- but they could be used as currency in trade to bring in a decent scoring winger.

[Bullwinkle]

Well, the Vanek "context" is an assumption to support having the discussion. I'm certainly open to discussing alternatives, but they need to be realistic -- ie Nashville isn't going to part with Weber for Boyes and Leopold. They are going to want top-line scoring talent. I agree that a long-term contract with Weber would be a necessary part of the deal.

 

As for Vanek and Weber: I think Vanek is not in the top 30 players in the NHL, while I think Weber is in the top half dozen. I also think that if the opportunity to snag a truly elite player presents itself, the Sabres need to jump on it. Finally, I think that Weber would make the Sabres substantially better immediately, while the young defensemen you reference will take much longer and perhaps will never do so -- but they could be used as currency in trade to bring in a decent scoring winger.

 

This is the problem. First of all, there aren't that many (if any) scoring wingers out there that teams would be willing to part with for the promise of a young defenseman or two that would compare to the offense you're giving up. Plus you'd better have this rather unlikely deal in place before you trade off your top winger and top prospect if you're including Kassian to boot. Otherwise you will have too many NHL-ready Dmen (8) combined with a weakened offense.

[waldo]

Well, the Vanek "context" is an assumption to support having the discussion. I'm certainly open to discussing alternatives, but they need to be realistic -- ie Nashville isn't going to part with Weber for Boyes and Leopold. They are going to want top-line scoring talent. I agree that a long-term contract with Weber would be a necessary part of the deal.

 

As for Vanek and Weber: I think Vanek is not in the top 30 players in the NHL, while I think Weber is in the top half dozen. I also think that if the opportunity to snag a truly elite player presents itself, the Sabres need to jump on it. Finally, I think that Weber would make the Sabres substantially better immediately, while the young defensemen you reference will take much longer and perhaps will never do so -- but they could be used as currency in trade to bring in a decent scoring winger.

 

I think you use Myers as the anchor of the deal and go from there and add offense and/or defense and/ or prospects and/or picks as needed to the list. If you get Weber and sign him to a five year, which would be a condition of the deal, you no longer need Myers potential . Nashville gets to bet on him developing into a dominant player.

[X. Benedict]

Does Andre Kostitsyn want out of Mooontreeal?

 

It really has become quite rare for players to criticize coaches.

 

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=373617

[carpandean]

This is the problem. First of all, there aren't that many (if any) scoring wingers out there that teams would be willing to part with for the promise of a young defenseman or two that would compare to the offense you're giving up. Plus you'd better have this rather unlikely deal in place before you trade off your top winger and top prospect if you're including Kassian to boot. Otherwise you will have too many NHL-ready Dmen (8) combined with a weakened offense.

It does depend on when this hypothetical trade takes place. If we're talking right now, then they would have some trouble working such a deal. If we're talking the trade deadline, then young Dman for experienced winger trades do happen. If we're talking next June (acquiring Weber's rights before he becomes a free agent), then there's the draft, free agency, and the trading periods between and after each that could be used to acquire offensive help. I don't expect Weber to be on the block right now, but the other two cases are more likely (most likely is still "does not happen.") I don't see Darcy making such a big change to the roster at the deadline unless, somehow, several younger wingers really step up. So, next June would be my guess, if at all.

[LGR4GM]

Well, the Vanek "context" is an assumption to support having the discussion. I'm certainly open to discussing alternatives, but they need to be realistic -- ie Nashville isn't going to part with Weber for Boyes and Leopold. They are going to want top-line scoring talent. I agree that a long-term contract with Weber would be a necessary part of the deal.

 

As for Vanek and Weber: I think Vanek is not in the top 30 players in the NHL, while I think Weber is in the top half dozen. I also think that if the opportunity to snag a truly elite player presents itself, the Sabres need to jump on it. Finally, I think that Weber would make the Sabres substantially better immediately, while the young defensemen you reference will take much longer and perhaps will never do so -- but they could be used as currency in trade to bring in a decent scoring winger.

Ok so why don't we offer Pittsburg Stafford, Sekera, Kassian and 2 first rounders for Malkin... that at least gets us something we need. I just think that with Myers, Weber (Mike), Regehr, Ehrhoff, Leopold, and Sekera, and MAG, and Morrisonn, and Shiestal, AND McNabb, AND Pysyk, AND Brennan, AND Gauthier-Leduc.... That I would rather have a center than trade anything for Weber. If Shea was a UFA and Myers was signed then yes I would consider the possibility of doing that but just because Anaheim won the cup with 2 great defenders doesn't mean the sabres can use the exact same model. Also Ehrhoff is on this team for the next what? 9 Years? So there is that to consider.

 

Trading for Shea Weber is dumb, we don't have the offensive talent to replace someone like Vanek and we don't have the ability currently to soak up 7.5million for one year and then have him walk away in free agency... Weber on this team, right now would not win you the cup. Maybe if Myers was not here then I would be more convinced but until that day arrives i can not believe trading anything for Weber is smart. Also remember that Ennis, Myers, Kaleta and MAG again will need to be resigned next summer as well... now if Weber is a UFA then sure maybe we somehow could acquire him but trading for him is a terrible idea.

[LGR4GM]

here we go I will crunch the numbers and make the Weber trade work just for SaG...

 

Shea Weber to Buffalo

 

Vanek 7.1, Sekera 2.75, 2012 first round pick to Nashville (9.85 in salary gone)

 

Buffalo extends Weber for 8.25mil a year for 8 years or 66million$ contract

 

Tyler Myers gets 4.75 mil a year for 4 years or 19mill$ contract

total beginning next year is 13million in 2 defenders plus the rest of your defense ='s 24.97mil leaving 39.33 for forwards and GT

 

So then you have roughly 27.955 tied up in 10 forwards after new contracts for Goose, Ennis and Kaleta

 

and then you have 6.925 tied up in GT leaving 4.45 million for 3 more forwards and then any call ups or injuries

 

Your lines next year are then as follows:

 

Pommers - Roy - Ennis

Stafford - Leino - Gerbe

Kassian - Adam - Foligno

Kaleta - Goose - McCormick

 

Shea Weber - Myers

Mike Weber - Ehrhoff

Leopold - Regehr

 

... I think i did that right at least but...

 

so yup we could do it... what happens then in 2 years when we have to resign Roy... hope Catenacci stops playing games and develops a lot faster...http://www.sabresprospects.com/2011/08/reports-out-of-sault-ste.html

[dEnnis the Menace]

here we go I will crunch the numbers and make the Weber trade work just for SaG...

 

Shea Weber to Buffalo

 

Vanek 7.1, Sekera 2.75, 2012 first round pick to Nashville (9.85 in salary gone)

 

Buffalo extends Weber for 8.25mil a year for 8 years or 66million$ contract

 

Tyler Myers gets 4.75 mil a year for 4 years or 19mill$ contract

total beginning next year is 13million in 2 defenders plus the rest of your defense ='s 24.97mil leaving 39.33 for forwards and GT

 

So then you have roughly 27.955 tied up in 10 forwards after new contracts for Goose, Ennis and Kaleta

 

and then you have 6.925 tied up in GT leaving 4.45 million for 3 more forwards and then any call ups or injuries

 

Your lines next year are then as follows:

 

Pommers - Roy - Ennis

Stafford - Leino - Gerbe

Kassian - Adam - Foligno

Kaleta - Goose - McCormick

 

Shea Weber - Myers

Mike Weber - Ehrhoff

Leopold - Regehr

 

... I think i did that right at least but...

 

so yup we could do it... what happens then in 2 years when we have to resign Roy... hope Catenacci stops playing games and develops a lot faster...http://www.sabresprospects.com/2011/08/reports-out-of-sault-ste.html

 

 

We could always...ummm...move Gerbe to center :ph34r:

 

:nana:

[spndnchz]

Can I giggle before my ######? Or does it have to come after?

[nfreeman]

This is the problem. First of all, there aren't that many (if any) scoring wingers out there that teams would be willing to part with for the promise of a young defenseman or two that would compare to the offense you're giving up. Plus you'd better have this rather unlikely deal in place before you trade off your top winger and top prospect if you're including Kassian to boot. Otherwise you will have too many NHL-ready Dmen (8) combined with a weakened offense.

Didn't the Sabres and the Bruins each trade for a scoring winger last year without giving up much?

 

As for Kassian, it's possible that Nashville would rather have an NHL-ready defenseman like Sekera or Leopold, plus perhaps McNabb or Pysyk, than Kassian, which would certainly work better for the Sabres for the reasons you point out.

 

I think you use Myers as the anchor of the deal and go from there and add offense and/or defense and/ or prospects and/or picks as needed to the list. If you get Weber and sign him to a five year, which would be a condition of the deal, you no longer need Myers potential . Nashville gets to bet on him developing into a dominant player.

What about my Myers jersey?

 

You raise an interesting question, and I'm not sure if I would do the deal if the Sabres had to include Myers. I probably would if it were Myers straight up for Weber, but that is unlikely and I'd have a hard time adding much to the package (or for that matter parting with Myers).

 

Ok so why don't we offer Pittsburg Stafford, Sekera, Kassian and 2 first rounders for Malkin... that at least gets us something we need. I just think that with Myers, Weber (Mike), Regehr, Ehrhoff, Leopold, and Sekera, and MAG, and Morrisonn, and Shiestal, AND McNabb, AND Pysyk, AND Brennan, AND Gauthier-Leduc.... That I would rather have a center than trade anything for Weber. If Shea was a UFA and Myers was signed then yes I would consider the possibility of doing that but just because Anaheim won the cup with 2 great defenders doesn't mean the sabres can use the exact same model. Also Ehrhoff is on this team for the next what? 9 Years? So there is that to consider.

 

Trading for Shea Weber is dumb, we don't have the offensive talent to replace someone like Vanek and we don't have the ability currently to soak up 7.5million for one year and then have him walk away in free agency... Weber on this team, right now would not win you the cup. Maybe if Myers was not here then I would be more convinced but until that day arrives i can not believe trading anything for Weber is smart. Also remember that Ennis, Myers, Kaleta and MAG again will need to be resigned next summer as well... now if Weber is a UFA then sure maybe we somehow could acquire him but trading for him is a terrible idea.

Dude! Pittsburgh is NOT trading Malkin! (and especially not for the BS package you mention.)

 

As I said, any trade for Weber would be conditioned upon an extension -- otherwise it would make no sense.

 

here we go I will crunch the numbers and make the Weber trade work just for SaG...

 

Shea Weber to Buffalo

 

Vanek 7.1, Sekera 2.75, 2012 first round pick to Nashville (9.85 in salary gone)

 

Buffalo extends Weber for 8.25mil a year for 8 years or 66million$ contract

 

Tyler Myers gets 4.75 mil a year for 4 years or 19mill$ contract

total beginning next year is 13million in 2 defenders plus the rest of your defense ='s 24.97mil leaving 39.33 for forwards and GT

 

So then you have roughly 27.955 tied up in 10 forwards after new contracts for Goose, Ennis and Kaleta

 

and then you have 6.925 tied up in GT leaving 4.45 million for 3 more forwards and then any call ups or injuries

 

Your lines next year are then as follows:

 

Pommers - Roy - Ennis

Stafford - Leino - Gerbe

Kassian - Adam - Foligno

Kaleta - Goose - McCormick

 

Shea Weber - Myers

Mike Weber - Ehrhoff

Leopold - Regehr

 

... I think i did that right at least but...

 

so yup we could do it... what happens then in 2 years when we have to resign Roy... hope Catenacci stops playing games and develops a lot faster...http://www.sabresprospects.com/2011/08/reports-out-of-sault-ste.html

much better.

[Andrew Amerk]

Does Andre Kostitsyn want out of Mooontreeal?

 

It really has become quite rare for players to criticize coaches.

 

http://tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=373617

 

"It wasn't me who started to play badly," Kostitsyn explained to Goals.by. "It's just that I was being put into (the) third and fourth line...I've tried talking to (Jacques Martin) more than once. But he doesn't care."

 

He was put on the 3rd and 4th lines because of his inconsistent play.

 

Aside from that, he should have been putting up even better numbers playing against the lower line defensive pairings.

[shrader]

As I said, any trade for Weber would be conditioned upon an extension -- otherwise it would make no sense.

 

And on that note, whatever Weber winds up signing in the next year or two, it will very likely be similarly structured to the Ehrhoff deal.