OT - Osama bin Laden Confirmed Dead

[...]

With this, i'm done with the thread. Sorry, you believe in what you believe in, it's cool, i respect that, i just feel like it's completely wrong and that statement pretty much guarantees we'll never agree on the topic at hand.

 

 

Too bad. I would interested to know why you think that summary of the fundamentalist Muslim mindset is wrong.

[notwoz]

Unless you work in the pentagon or the white house, that statement makes absolute no sense.

 

 

Those aren't the only alternatives. But that's for you to decide -- not for me to disclose. But trust me, he's dead.

[Taro T]

Jeez, I'm sorry to disturb this convocation of the Buffalo Sabres' chapter of the Mensa Club. It's not the contents of the thread that bothers me -- it's that the thread is here at all. Am I not allowed to exercise my 1st Amendment rights in complaining about this thread? I come to this board to get away from the ###### of the real world. If I wanted to take part in a discussion of the "apparent" death of bin Laden, I'd talk with the people I work with (and in this regard, I work in Washington DC, so they probably know more that most people (that's code for YOU)). And as far as I'm concerned, he's not "apparently" dead -- but he's really most sincerely dead. So let's talk about the Sabres.

Well, if you can show me how to change the title of the thread, I gladly will. But at the time the thread was started, it hadn't been "confirmed" that ObL had been offed. Thus the reason for the use of the word "apparently."

 

As for the thread being here, sorry that it offends you, but it is pretty big news and it appears that a lot of people have something to say about the topic.

 

As for 1st Amendment rights, you do realize that they aren't really applicable here (or when using anybody else's privately owned and operated site). SDS gives us pretty free range and is a managamous dictator, but the 1st amendment isn't really part of the landscape here on the intertubes.

[notwoz]

Well, if you can show me how to change the title of the thread, I gladly will. But at the time the thread was started, it hadn't been "confirmed" that ObL had been offed. Thus the reason for the use of the word "apparently."

 

As for the thread being here, sorry that it offends you, but it is pretty big news and it appears that a lot of people have something to say about the topic.

 

As for 1st Amendment rights, you do realize that they aren't really applicable here (or when using anybody else's privately owned and operated site). SDS gives us pretty free range and is a managamous dictator, but the 1st amendment isn't really part of the landscape here on the intertubes.

 

Sorry, but based on the barriers to entry, this isn't a private site by any stretch of the imagination. And there are probably 50,000 lawyers in this country who could win that argument in court without breaking a sweat.

[notwoz]

Too bad. I would interested to know why you think that summary of the fundamentalist Muslim mindset is wrong.

 

 

It would be more informative if you could compare and contrast the mindset of the fundamentalist Muslin with that of the fundamentalist Christian. Then we could have a real conversation.

[...]

Sorry, but based on the barriers to entry, this isn't a private site by any stretch of the imagination. And there are probably 50,000 lawyers in this country who could win that argument in court without breaking a sweat.

 

 

http://www.firstamendment.com/firstamendment.php

 

 

"Can websites censor things I say online?

We are often asked this question from potential clients who have had their Internet messages or postings removed by forums, message boards, website operators or ISP’s. Unfortunately, as noted above, the First Amendment only applies to government actors, and not to private website operators. Therefore, assuming the website is acting on its own, and not at the request or on the behalf of some state or federal government authority, no First Amendment right is violated. However, a customer’s relationship with a website is usually governed by a set of “Terms & Conditions” that are agreed to during the registration or access process. Those Terms & Conditions will usually identify the grounds for removal of communications or termination of the customer’s account. Such user terms and conditions are usually enforced by the courts."

[darksabre]

Sorry, but based on the barriers to entry, this isn't a private site by any stretch of the imagination. And there are probably 50,000 lawyers in this country who could win that argument in court without breaking a sweat.

 

Why are you still in this thread?

[Taro T]

Sorry, but based on the barriers to entry, this isn't a private site by any stretch of the imagination. And there are probably 50,000 lawyers in this country who could win that argument in court without breaking a sweat.

I'm pretty sure that SDS can (and has and does) set the terms of what is considered acceptable speech here and it's quite a bit more limited than that which passes muster under the Bill of Rights.

[notwoz]

Why are you still in this thread?

 

Because I knew people would respond

[notwoz]

http://www.firstamen...stamendment.php

 

 

"Can websites censor things I say online?

We are often asked this question from potential clients who have had their Internet messages or postings removed by forums, message boards, website operators or ISP’s. Unfortunately, as noted above, the First Amendment only applies to government actors, and not to private website operators. Therefore, assuming the website is acting on its own, and not at the request or on the behalf of some state or federal government authority, no First Amendment right is violated. However, a customer’s relationship with a website is usually governed by a set of “Terms & Conditions” that are agreed to during the registration or access process. Those Terms & Conditions will usually identify the grounds for removal of communications or termination of the customer’s account. Such user terms and conditions are usually enforced by the courts."

 

 

I didn't see any citations to specific court decisions -- so is it his word against mine?

[Knightrider]

I'm pretty sure that SDS can (and has and does) set the terms of what is considered acceptable speech here and it's quite a bit more limited than that which passes muster under the Bill of Rights.

 

 

Yup. This is getting boring, though.

[notwoz]

Why are you still in this thread?

And with that --- I have to work tomorrow, so it's time for me to sign off.

[Two or less]

Too bad. I would interested to know why you think that summary of the fundamentalist Muslim mindset is wrong.

 

I just believe it goes much much deeper then the simple it's them vs. the west argument. It's stuff that we didn't even discuss here yet, and obviously i strongly believe our support towards Israel is the major factor but hundreds of years goes and hundreds of battles between those two are main factors. I don't think they are jealous of our lifestyle at all, and the middle east is a very nice tourist attraction with beautiful cities. I just think they are fighting a never ending war, and we got stuck supporting one side, not theirs, which got us in the middle of this whole situation.

 

They don't have an army, or true leadership and gorilla warfare/suicide bombing is the only way they can survive another day. I am not saying it's right, but i also don't believe shooting missiles and killing hundreds of people is ok either, i don't like any wars. I wish my 2 friends who are overseas fighting for USA would be back home with me to celebrate my birthday tomorrow night at the local pub.

 

Like i said, besides going back to the whole Muslim thing, someone asked earlier why they hate us and how do we end it? But, i don't even think too many people know why we're over there in the first place. Yes, 9-11 drove us over the edge and our troops were send, but, they've tried big attacks here in the USA before 9-11 just unsuccessfully, and overseas, which OBL was the mastermind for. So it's obvious it's deeper then 9-11. Question is, why do they hate us? Syria was a friend in the first world war. During the second world war, we had peace treaties with Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan and Turkey. The Muslim people liked the model for which USA stood for. President Truman i believe was the first US president to publicly show support towards Jews in the US, to gain votes and momentum, as well as campaign dollars and he started to help Jews in Israel to provide as much help and resources to help turn Palestine into a Jewish state. And as i have mentioned, President Carter supported and aided Osama Bin Laden for 10 years during the Soviet invasion.

 

If it were as simple as you put it, they hate us because we're the giants of the west, why would they ally with us, support us, and us be friends with such monster? We gave him training and weapons!

[...]

It would be more informative if you could compare and contrast the mindset of the fundamentalist Muslin with that of the fundamentalist Christian. Then we could have a real conversation.

 

 

It'd be pretty difficult to compare any group's mindset with that of a collection of cotton fabric, regardless of what you think of that group. :thumbsup:

 

 

However, giving you the benefit of the doubt (only slightly, though), the last fundamentalist Christian to make the news in a manner somewhat comparable to fundamentalist Muslims was James Charles Kopp. But he only killed one person.

[...]

I didn't see any citations to specific court decisions -- so is it his word against mine?

 

 

I guess so. Dig up some case law and report back. I don't want to see you in this thread without it. :w00t:

[...]

I just believe it goes much much deeper then the simple it's them vs. the west argument. It's stuff that we didn't even discuss here yet, and obviously i strongly believe our support towards Israel is the major factor but hundreds of years goes and hundreds of battles between those two are main factors. I don't think they are jealous of our lifestyle at all, and the middle east is a very nice tourist attraction with beautiful cities. I just think they are fighting a never ending war, and we got stuck supporting one side, not theirs, which got us in the middle of this whole situation.

 

They don't have an army, or true leadership and gorilla warfare/suicide bombing is the only way they can survive another day. I am not saying it's right, but i also don't believe shooting missiles and killing hundreds of people is ok either, i don't like any wars. I wish my 2 friends who are overseas fighting for USA would be back home with me to celebrate my birthday tomorrow night at the local pub.

 

Like i said, besides going back to the whole Muslim thing, someone asked earlier why they hate us and how do we end it? But, i don't even think too many people know why we're over there in the first place. Yes, 9-11 drove us over the edge and our troops were send, but, they've tried big attacks here in the USA before 9-11 just unsuccessfully, and overseas, which OBL was the mastermind for. So it's obvious it's deeper then 9-11. Question is, why do they hate us? Syria was a friend in the first world war. During the second world war, we had peace treaties with Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan and Turkey. The Muslim people liked the model for which USA stood for. President Truman i believe was the first US president to publicly show support towards Jews in the US, to gain votes and momentum, as well as campaign dollars and he started to help Jews in Israel to provide as much help and resources to help turn Palestine into a Jewish state. And as i have mentioned, President Carter supported and aided Osama Bin Laden for 10 years during the Soviet invasion.

 

If it were as simple as you put it, they hate us because we're the giants of the west, why would they ally with us, support us, and us be friends with such monster? We gave him training and weapons!

 

 

I am going to sincerely urge you to re-read my posts as it pertains to this topic. Your reasoning and mine are not so far off. What you're not willing to accept, I think, is my assertion that the culmination of history is summarized in the statement "they hate us."

 

Just because I assert that statement is true (that "they hate us"), it does not mean that the statement is shallow. It's like asking someone why they like or dislike strawberries - most people sum it up with "they taste good" or "they make me gag". That doesn't mean that there aren't dozens of details behind their like or dislike, it's just that those reasons are easily summarized into convenient, efficient statements.

[Two or less]

Too bad. I would interested to know why you think that summary of the fundamentalist Muslim mindset is wrong.

 

This: "To fundamentalist Muslims the West has not only corrupted members of their own religion, but the Earth. The USA is the West - if you conquer the USA, you conquer the West. You can not understand what's going on without understanding the history of religions, politics, and sociology. This is much greater than a property dispute."

 

I don't know if i can argue with that. But, i also don't know if i can agree with that. I think your statement is a very realistic view of the entire world, all nations, all races, all religions. I think there is examples in this world that each kind of person can be classified as corrupt. Like the whites coming to the USA and killing the Native Americans. Or the corruption of government, as it has always been so obvious but now turned upside down by the wikileaks guy. The Russians and their brutality. The Nazis in their killing of millions of Jews. Or, the Jews returning to Palestine, and killing towns/villages to get control back and making a Muslim territory a Jewish State.

 

No matter what kind of view you have on the "Islamic Fundamentalist culture" which for all we know could be a corrupt media view of their people. Fact is, they have a different culture then us and many of the things I do not agree with. But, does it make it wrong? There was Muslims who supported the USA and even tried to adopt their country government as a copy of ours (in Syria) but as any relation we've had in the middle East, all ended around the 1950s. Why didn't "they" hate us much prior to the 1950s and why were so helpful to them during that era? As part of their "culture", i just heard on CNN earlier today that women can not walk in the streets of Pakistan without being covered or with a male escort. Which is absolutely absurd and far from the truth. There are cities in which women can not walk alone, it's got nothing to do with being western though, it's because theres a lot of pigs out there and many cities in Pakistan are not real friendly. If my girlfriend were to go downtown tonight and walk down avenue D in Rochester, i don't think she could walk the entire block before getting attacked. In many cities in Pakistan, just like in Boston, women can freely walk. It's safe, because theres Police and people are more civilized. But, its a stereotype of the Pakistan people.

 

The reason why i said i'm done with this thread because of your comment, is because, i don't truly believe it's true, that their culture is so much different then ours, which makes us evil. I understand their culture compared to ours (in my eyes) is whacked. I don't agree with it, and there is many bad people, for all the ages, but i think everyone has been bad at some point. Are they corrupt? Probably. Is the US government corrupt? Probably. Is the Vatican corrupt? Probably.

 

In theory, you're right, this topic is the first step to understand this entire debate because it's Palestine and Israel and the differences between the two, and not only who gets the land, but how it's governed.

[SwampD]

I am going to sincerely urge you to re-read my posts as it pertains to this topic. Your reasoning and mine are not so far off. What you're not willing to accept, I think, is my assertion that the culmination of history is summarized in the statement "they hate us."

 

Just because I assert that statement is true (that "they hate us"), it does not mean that the statement is shallow. It's like asking someone why they like or dislike strawberries - most people sum it up with "they taste good" or "they make me gag". That doesn't mean that there aren't dozens of details behind their like or dislike, it's just that those reasons are easily summarized into convenient, efficient statements.

I think you need to reread VM's posts as well. His original post, pages and pages ago, basically could have been boiled down to "we hate them". It wasn't shallow either.

[Two or less]

Listen, Drunk Mel Gibson, all of the dysfunction in the Muslim world, and especially the dysfunctional behavior by Islamic Fundamentalists, is not because of the Jews. Have you ever noticed that Islamic terrorists tend to kill a lot of Muslims too? Were the 2008 terror attacks in Mumbai because of the Jews? The 2008 attack in London? What about honor killings? Or the countries where women are executed for being raped, gays are executed for being gay, and anyone can be executed for converting away from Islam? (Hint: It's not because Israel exists.)

 

I have a finite amount of time on this earth. I don't want to waste any more of it listening to how Americans and crazy, violent Islamic Fundamentalists are really just two sides of the same coin and we'd really get along great if we would just stop being afraid of each other. (Or the more idiotic version where everyone would get along great if it weren't for those damn Jews "murdering" people and somehow directing U.S. foreign policy.)

 

If you really want to know about Al Qaeda, read The Looming Tower or Ghost Wars. In the meantime, try to wrap your mind around the fact that American culture is better than Islamic Fundamentalist culture.

 

Maybe i was drunk earlier today, because I missed this post. But i just saw it-

 

1. Mumbai attacks - The attackers targeted Jewish centers in India. It was a long planned attack. The Hotel Taj Mahaj had a very large stay of Jewish people that day, and that was one of the main targets. One of the other targets was the "Nariman House", a Jewish center in Mumbai. They were putting "fear" into Jewish tourism, with an attempt to scare people of travel and hurt their economy. This was just more of the Israel/Palestine war, it just happened to take place in India.

 

2. London attacks of 2005 - Same reasoning as this thread goes on. Britain, as well as USA, support Israel. Britain supports USA, USA supports Israel, Britain joins USA in "war on terror" and became targets.

[wjag]

Unless you work in the pentagon or the white house, that statement makes absolute no sense.

 

Or the State Department, Defense Intelligence Agency, Central Intelligence Agency, National Security Administration, House of Representatives, Senate, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Justice Department, Department of Homeland Security, or ....

[Knightrider]

This: "To fundamentalist Muslims the West has not only corrupted members of their own religion, but the Earth. The USA is the West - if you conquer the USA, you conquer the West. You can not understand what's going on without understanding the history of religions, politics, and sociology. This is much greater than a property dispute."

 

I don't know if i can argue with that. But, i also don't know if i can agree with that. I think your statement is a very realistic view of the entire world, all nations, all races, all religions. I think there is examples in this world that each kind of person can be classified as corrupt. Like the whites coming to the USA and killing the Native Americans. Or the corruption of government, as it has always been so obvious but now turned upside down by the wikileaks guy. The Russians and their brutality. The Nazis in their killing of millions of Jews. Or, the Jews returning to Palestine, and killing towns/villages to get control back and making a Muslim territory a Jewish State.

 

No matter what kind of view you have on the "Islamic Fundamentalist culture" which for all we know could be a corrupt media view of their people. Fact is, they have a different culture then us and many of the things I do not agree with. But, does it make it wrong? There was Muslims who supported the USA and even tried to adopt their country government as a copy of ours (in Syria) but as any relation we've had in the middle East, all ended around the 1950s. Why didn't "they" hate us much prior to the 1950s and why were so helpful to them during that era? As part of their "culture", i just heard on CNN earlier today that women can not walk in the streets of Pakistan without being covered or with a male escort. Which is absolutely absurd and far from the truth. There are cities in which women can not walk alone, it's got nothing to do with being western though, it's because theres a lot of pigs out there and many cities in Pakistan are not real friendly. If my girlfriend were to go downtown tonight and walk down avenue D in Rochester, i don't think she could walk the entire block before getting attacked. In many cities in Pakistan, just like in Boston, women can freely walk. It's safe, because theres Police and people are more civilized. But, its a stereotype of the Pakistan people.

 

The reason why i said i'm done with this thread because of your comment, is because, i don't truly believe it's true, that their culture is so much different then ours, which makes us evil. I understand their culture compared to ours (in my eyes) is whacked. I don't agree with it, and there is many bad people, for all the ages, but i think everyone has been bad at some point. Are they corrupt? Probably. Is the US government corrupt? Probably. Is the Vatican corrupt? Probably.

 

In theory, you're right, this topic is the first step to understand this entire debate because it's Palestine and Israel and the differences between the two, and not only who gets the land, but how it's governed.

 

This did not begin on purpose. Because of geographic isolation, Native Americans went through the plagues Europe had seen over centuries in decades. I distinctly remember being taught in a history class that the Mayans and Aztecs disappeared shortly after contact with the Spanish not because of battles but because disease decimated their population. Cortez showed up at what is now Mexico City expecting a big battle but there was no one to fight. The same happened in US territories, and those who lived of the Native Americans naturally decided the white man was an enemy.

[North Buffalo]

I just believe it goes much much deeper then the simple it's them vs. the west argument. It's stuff that we didn't even discuss here yet, and obviously i strongly believe our support towards Israel is the major factor but hundreds of years goes and hundreds of battles between those two are main factors. I don't think they are jealous of our lifestyle at all, and the middle east is a very nice tourist attraction with beautiful cities. I just think they are fighting a never ending war, and we got stuck supporting one side, not theirs, which got us in the middle of this whole situation.

 

They don't have an army, or true leadership and gorilla warfare/suicide bombing is the only way they can survive another day. I am not saying it's right, but i also don't believe shooting missiles and killing hundreds of people is ok either, i don't like any wars. I wish my 2 friends who are overseas fighting for USA would be back home with me to celebrate my birthday tomorrow night at the local pub.

 

Like i said, besides going back to the whole Muslim thing, someone asked earlier why they hate us and how do we end it? But, i don't even think too many people know why we're over there in the first place. Yes, 9-11 drove us over the edge and our troops were send, but, they've tried big attacks here in the USA before 9-11 just unsuccessfully, and overseas, which OBL was the mastermind for. So it's obvious it's deeper then 9-11. Question is, why do they hate us? Syria was a friend in the first world war. During the second world war, we had peace treaties with Egypt, Jordan, Pakistan and Turkey. The Muslim people liked the model for which USA stood for. President Truman i believe was the first US president to publicly show support towards Jews in the US, to gain votes and momentum, as well as campaign dollars and he started to help Jews in Israel to provide as much help and resources to help turn Palestine into a Jewish state. And as i have mentioned, President Carter supported and aided Osama Bin Laden for 10 years during the Soviet invasion.

 

If it were as simple as you put it, they hate us because we're the giants of the west, why would they ally with us, support us, and us be friends with such monster? We gave him training and weapons!

 

Agreed, neither was Osama Bin Laden's gripe against the West, nor the history of middle east that simple. Palestine has been lived in or invaded and occupied by a number of different ethnic groups over the centuries including the Persians, the Egyptians, the Jews, the Romans, the Greeks, the Crusaders and now most recently the Palestinians and Jews. The U.S. support of Israel is a convenient symbol for Arab hatred, but US playing both sides of the fence on many of the issues affecting the people in this area as much to blame as anything else and makes sense.

 

That doesn't mean the US should disengage, but it does mean that it should be vigilant because getting involved means getting affected by the often changing conflicts endemic to this part of the world.

[LabattBlue]

Am I the only one that thinks there isn't a bigger waste of time than arguing religion and politics with a bunch of strangers, let alone people you know?

 

Most people have strong opinions on the subjects and nobody is going to change their point of view.

 

I will now go back to figuring out how to get Stamkos to Buffalo. :rolleyes:

[darksabre]

Am I the only one that thinks there isn't a bigger waste of time than arguing religion and politics with a bunch of strangers, let alone people you know?

 

Most people have strong opinions on the subjects and nobody is going to change their point of view.

 

I will now go back to figuring out how to get Stamkos to Buffalo. :rolleyes:

 

Eh, gotta let people get it out of their systems. I did too much of it several years ago when Obama was getting elected. I have since learned to just let things like this go. If I'm sitting down and having a discussion with someone, I don't mind. But arguing about politics and religion on the internet never ends as a victory for anyone.

[SwampD]

Am I the only one that thinks there isn't a bigger waste of time than arguing religion and politics with a bunch of strangers, let alone people you know?

Most people have strong opinions on the subjects and nobody is going to change their point of view.

 

I will now go back to figuring out how to get Stamkos to Buffalo. :rolleyes:

The only bigger waste of time might be arguing about hockey with strangers.