Sabres Acquire Brad Boyes

[PASabreFan]

i was thinking more "Ohhhhhhh my! Boyes will be Boyes!"

 

Not bad!

[korab rules]

I'm sorry, but how many times have you watched Ennis play? The guy makes his own teammates look super slow. His hands are insanely fast, and he is very quick. Ennis has been doing a great job of getting the puck deep into the other team's zone and buying time for the Sabres to get positioned. Stats won't tell you that. Ennis has an "unwillingness to go to the dirty areas?" Give me a break. He is often the first Sabre to enter a "dirty area." Ennis has been playing well for the Sabres, and he has a lot of potential. Remember, Ennis is only 21.

 

Oh, I don't know - probably every game he has played in a sabres uniform? He's a waterbug, and extremely quick. I don't think he is extremely fast. Yes, he gains the zone and carries it deep - but then he runs into contact and coughs up the puck more often than he sets up a scoring play. I guess I don't understand what you consider a dirty area of the ice. I never said he didn't have a lot of potential - in fact, I have said the opposite. Way to be insightful, though.

 

agreed.

 

my only issue with Ennis is overhandling the puck, and then losing it creating a turnover going the other way, quick. and that is something with experience he will overcome, he shows more of a willingness to learn than say Max, who till the end stubbornly decided to play one way, his way.

 

 

I would agree, I've seen Ennis hold on to the puck in the offensive zone countless times, while his linemates stand around and do nothing.

 

Of course he ends up overhandling and losing the puck, if nobody wants to make themselves available for a pass.

 

I think we disagree on what makes a player effective. He can gain the offensive zone while still in possession of the puck, which is a good thing. My problem is what happens thereafter. Beating the puck square while skating around the perimeter of the offensive zone isn't effective. I don't see it as his linemates standing around at all - I think they are indecisive because they don't have a clue what he is going to do next and neither does he. He reacts to what he sees and holds the puck forever rather than play a north south game or the cycle like everyone else on the team. He has to, because that is his skill set and he isn't very well equipped to play the cycle. He can be effective using that skill set, but he needs to learn how to use his skill set to create offense for his team mates. Right now he is a bit of a one man show. Briere has a similar skill set, but has learned to rely less on his individual skills and play more of a team game.

 

 

Can't say I watched a lot of Yotes games back then, but Briere was a pp specialist in his 2nd stint w/ them. So, I doubt he spent a lot of time in the corners or camped just outside the blue paint.

 

What you wrote just before the bolded part sounds an awful lot like Satan. I don't see too many Miro-like tendancies in his game. I also don't see much Max in him either.

 

Wishful thinking on my part, but I see more St. Louis in his game than any of those other 3.

 

I don't see Satan at all, but to each his own. The similarities to max are the phenomenal puck handling skills and tendency to hold the puck to long. Ennis is a better finisher, and looks to move the puck, whereas Max, well... I have no idea what was going through his head.

 

 

I agree with you on the overhandling the puck. The problem I have with it is when I see he should just get the puck on the net, to often, like near the end of the Detroit game when he had a chance to get the puck on the net, he tried to make another move and ended up getting crunched and losing the puck instead of taking a shot and hoping for a rebound. But I like his determination and his skill set is great. Imagine him playing with a Kassian or a Foligno and how much more ice he will get with one of those bruisers opening up some lanes for him. Trading him at this point would be really short sighted, lol.

 

I agree - he needs to get the puck on net more - but his line mates need to know he is going to do that so they can crash the net. If he plays with guys like Kassian and Foligno, he needs to let THEM handle the puck in the offensive zone so he can take on a briere role, hide beside the net, and pot goals once everyone forgets he is there. I think Ennis' effectiveness is limited right now because we have so few people capable of carrying the puck up the ice. It isn't Hecht's forte. Connolly is OK. The rest of them - no thanks. When Ennis can play a complimentary role rather then being the primary puck carrier when he is on the ice I think his stats will improve.

[korab rules]

This is something I have been thinking about ... you are not the first to see some of Briere in Ennis, and I think it is probably a good comparison. Thing is, many also have talked about Ennis as if he is borderline untouchable and a big part of the future ... well, Briere was 24 when he had his first good season in PHX (32 G, 60 pts ... and remember he was waived during the next season) and 26 when he played his first full season with the Sabres in 2003-04 and showed a glimpse of what was to come after the lockout. So, If Ennis=Briere, can the Sabres afford to wait until he is 26 for him to develop? Keep in mind Ryan Miller will be 35 years old at that point.

 

Point is, if Ennis is a piece that can be used to get better up the middle, I say they need to be willing to deal him. They have to view building of a true Cup contender through the window of Ryan Miller's career. (If you don't think he is the guy to win you one, well, that's another discussion, but obviously they believe in him.) So with all the wingers the Sabres have now and have coming up, if Ennis is the most trade-able commodity, they need to turn him into something that makes them better ASAP.

 

He could be Briere ... he could even be Marty St. Louis (who was 28! before he had a year with more than 40 pts but then obviously blew up) ... but it is going to take a while. The little guys seem to take a little longer, and keep in mind the game seems to be sliding back toward the pre-lockout grind. There is probably a better chance he WILL turn into something closer to Max ...

 

Not saying I would give him away for just anyone, but if someone wants him in a deal for a true #1 center or even someone the equivilent of Roy, I would not balk assuming the rest of the deal is right.

 

I agree with this. He COULD turn into a good player, but how long will that take to happen? And what are the odds? I wouldn't give him away or trade him lightly, but for a really significant piece I would trade him before I would trade Adam, Kassian or Foligno. You can't coach size or ferocity.

[Bmwolf21]

I don't see Satan at all, but to each his own. The similarities to max are the phenomenal puck handling skills and tendency to hold the puck to long. Ennis is a better finisher, and looks to move the puck, whereas Max, well... I have no idea what was going through his head.

Max definitely had the tendency to hold the puck too long. I wouldn't call him a phenomenal puck handler by any stretch of the definition, though. More often than not he turned the puck over on his own because his hands couldn't keep up with his feet.

[korab rules]

Max definitely had the tendency to hold the puck too long. I wouldn't call him a phenomenal puck handler by any stretch of the definition, though. More often than not he turned the puck over on his own because his hands couldn't keep up with his feet.

Too each his own - In my view he didn't have the hand speed that Ennis has, but he could stickhandle through three guys in a telephone booth. Try enough of those moves against NHL players and eventually you are going to cough up the puck. And he did. Usually near the blue line. Resulting in an odd man rush in the other direction. :death:

[shrader]

i was thinking more "Ohhhhhhh my! Boyes will be Boyes!"

 

A one night return of John Gurtler so he can say "Boyes skates unmolested into the zone"?

[nfreeman]

I agree with this. He COULD turn into a good player, but how long will that take to happen? And what are the odds? I wouldn't give him away or trade him lightly, but for a really significant piece I would trade him before I would trade Adam, Kassian or Foligno. You can't coach size or ferocity.

Korab, while I respect your hockey views as well as the awesome power of your avatar, I think you are underestimating Ennis a bit here. I have seen him lay out a surprising number of respectable hits and play a surprisingly physical forechecking game. Now, physics being what it is, he's never going to be a really powerful forechecker, and he's always going to lose battles with defensemen that come down to size, but he's not a pushover either. I also think he is both fast and quick, and probably the fastest guy on the team.

 

What I would really like to see out of Ennis is more finish and more pucks to the net. But he's in his first NHL season (and FWIW has been in the top 5 rookie scorers all year).

 

In any event I think my bottom line on him is pretty close to yours -- i.e. he's a talented young player who should only be traded if there is a really good player coming back. However, I would trade Adam or Foligno before I would trade Ennis.

[ROC Sabres]

A one night return of John Gurtler so he can say "Boyes skates unmolested into the zone"?

Or when he is crushed into the boards

 

"BOYES JUST GOT MANHANDLED"

[LabattBlue]

Korab, while I respect your hockey views as well as the awesome power of your avatar, I think you are underestimating Ennis a bit here. I have seen him lay out a surprising number of respectable hits and play a surprisingly physical forechecking game. Now, physics being what it is, he's never going to be a really powerful forechecker, and he's always going to lose battles with defensemen that come down to size, but he's not a pushover either. I also think he is both fast and quick, and probably the fastest guy on the team.

 

What I would really like to see out of Ennis is more finish and more pucks to the net. But he's in his first NHL season (and FWIW has been in the top 5 rookie scorers all year).

 

In any event I think my bottom line on him is pretty close to yours -- i.e. he's a talented young player who should only be traded if there is a really good player coming back. However, I would trade Adam or Foligno before I would trade Ennis.

I'l take Foligno and Kassian out of the discussion since they are different types of players and still in juniors, but I would also trade Adam way before I'd even think of trading Ennis. I know Ennis has one more year of pro experience, but I didn't see much out of Adam during his stints in Buffalo especially when comparing him to Ennis. I'm not saying Adam won't be a good NHL player, just not as much upside as Ennis from my perspective.

[That Aud Smell]

A one night return of John Gurtler so he can say "Boyes skates unmolested into the zone"?

+ funking one million. awesome.

 

dasher boards!

[korab rules]

Korab, while I respect your hockey views as well as the awesome power of your avatar, I think you are underestimating Ennis a bit here. I have seen him lay out a surprising number of respectable hits and play a surprisingly physical forechecking game. Now, physics being what it is, he's never going to be a really powerful forechecker, and he's always going to lose battles with defensemen that come down to size, but he's not a pushover either. I also think he is both fast and quick, and probably the fastest guy on the team.

 

What I would really like to see out of Ennis is more finish and more pucks to the net. But he's in his first NHL season (and FWIW has been in the top 5 rookie scorers all year).

 

In any event I think my bottom line on him is pretty close to yours -- i.e. he's a talented young player who should only be traded if there is a really good player coming back. However, I would trade Adam or Foligno before I would trade Ennis.

13-22-35 is his current tally. Good for 6th place in rookie scoring. He has played significantly more games than half of rookies listed in the top 30 in the league. Of his points, 4-7-11 are on the PP, where he should have more ice and opportunity to use his skill set. He has been credited with 31 hits, but as you acknowledge, they are not of the glass shaking variety.

 

Don't get me wrong, I like Ennis. I like his effort, and I like his skill set, my problem is that he isn't effectively using that skill set to generate offense right now. At least not as much as I would like. I haven't seen enough to feel like I know he is going to develop into a difference maker. Right now, I am about 50/50 that he remains a kid with a phenomenal skill set that just doesn't translate into the NHL. He is an exciting player that should be involved in the game, but I just don't know if that will happen. That's why I value Adam, Kassian and Foligno above Ennis, but I waffle on Foligno. I feel like their chances of being difference makers in this league and for this team are greater than Ennis'.

 

Why can't the NHL move to Olympic size ice?

[korab rules]

I'l take Foligno and Kassian out of the discussion since they are different types of players and still in juniors, but I would also trade Adam way before I'd even think of trading Ennis. I know Ennis has one more year of pro experience, but I didn't see much out of Adam during his stints in Buffalo especially when comparing him to Ennis. I'm not saying Adam won't be a good NHL player, just not as much upside as Ennis from my perspective.

 

Adam has more value to this team than he does to the league as a whole, as he is the only normal size human in our pipeline who projects to a top 3 center. In a different thread Shrader pointed out we have drafted a bunch of centers, the problem, as he pointed out, is that those players may have been centers when drafted but don't project as centers in the pros. This is a direct result of drafting centers in the lower rounds. If we used an occasional first, or even a second(Luke Adam) maybe we would have another center in the pipeline who weighs more than 150 lbs.

[LabattBlue]

Adam has more value to this team than he does to the league as a whole, as he is the only normal size human in our pipeline who projects to a top 3 center. In a different thread Shrader pointed out we have drafted a bunch of centers, the problem, as he pointed out, is that those players may have been centers when drafted but don't project as centers in the pros. This is a direct result of drafting centers in the lower rounds. If we used an occasional first, or even a second(Luke Adam) maybe we would have another center in the pipeline who weighs more than 150 lbs.

The Sabres lack of "scoring centers" in the system is a need, but that is not a reason to keep Adam over Ennis. Instead, DR needs to draft a center with the #1 and #3 picks. I don't know what guys the Sabres drafted as centers that ended up on the wing. Who would that be?

[beerme1]

Why can't the NHL move to Olympic size ice?

 

 

Speaking for myself, I don't want that.

[Taro T]

The Sabres lack of "scoring centers" in the system is a need, but that is not a reason to keep Adam over Ennis. Instead, DR needs to draft a center with the #1 and #3 picks. I don't know what guys the Sabres drafted as centers that ended up on the wing. Who would that be?

Don't have time to track the whole list down, but 1 guy that immediately springs to mind is the guy your are discussing. (And I don't mean Adam. ;) )

[Weave]

Adam has more value to this team than he does to the league as a whole, as he is the only normal size human in our pipeline who projects to a top 3 center. In a different thread Shrader pointed out we have drafted a bunch of centers, the problem, as he pointed out, is that those players may have been centers when drafted but don't project as centers in the pros. This is a direct result of drafting centers in the lower rounds. If we used an occasional first, or even a second(Luke Adam) maybe we would have another center in the pipeline who weighs more than 150 lbs.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with the part I bolded. Adam has much more value to us than to any other team. As said elsewehre in this thread, Adam did not look all that great in his stint with Buffalo. That didn't do anything positive to his trade value. Right now his value to Buffalo as the only center in the pipeline projecting to NHL talent means that he is more valuable to us than the rest of the NHL. IMO his trade value is minimal right now whereas the Sabres NEED him to stick around if for no other reason than injury call-up.

[LGR4GM]

The Sabres lack of "scoring centers" in the system is a need, but that is not a reason to keep Adam over Ennis. Instead, DR needs to draft a center with the #1 and #3 picks.

I agree and had an Idea. I know it is extremely difficult to trade up in the draft. What if we tried to trade up even just a few places so we could draft a center say 10th overall. If the Sabres make the playoffs in 8th we would most likely draft 15-16ish. Could we get a top center then? Maybe if we have better scouting by then we could, but this year we must use the 1st rounder on a center who is at least 6' an preferably 6'2"+ with decent everything (hands, shot, shooting...)

[Robviously]

Instead, DR needs to draft a center with the #1 and #3 picks.

Unfortunately, the NHL draft is set up where just about no one after the first couple picks is a safe bet to be an NHL player, let alone a good one. The Sabres should stick to drafting the best players available in every round and hope for the best.

 

Maybe the Sabres would have another center in the system if they'd had a second round pick in either of the last two drafts. We traded those picks for players that came to Buffalo and did absolutely nothing for us. I'm hoping Boyes breaks the curse starting tonight.

[LabattBlue]

Don't have time to track the whole list down, but 1 guy that immediately springs to mind is the guy your are discussing. (And I don't mean Adam. ;) )

I could be wrong, but I believe Ennis played wing at least in his final year of juniors. I could be wrong. Other than that, Gerbe was often mentioned as a center, but he also played wing at BC almost exclusively.

[X. Benedict]

Unfortunately, the NHL draft is set up where just about no one after the first couple picks is a safe bet to be an NHL player, let alone a good one. The Sabres should stick to drafting the best players available in every round and hope for the best.

 

I agree. I think they broadly try to predict organizational needs, but most players are going to be 3 to 4 years out, if at all.

 

In round 3 there is about a 25% chance of a player playing 20 NHL games, so you are trying to find an NHL player.

 

It really is ridiculous in the sense that the NHL still drafts 18 year old projecting their suitability as professional athletes.

[LabattBlue]

The Sabres should stick to drafting the best players available in every round and hope for the best.

That philosophy is how they ended up with 8000 defenseman in the system, no scoring center prospects(outside of Adam), and Jochen Hecht continuing to fill that role every time Connolly or Roy get hurt.

[Weave]

I could be wrong, but I believe Ennis played wing at least in his final year of juniors. I could be wrong. Other than that, Gerbe was often mentioned as a center, but he also played wing at BC almost exclusively.

 

Ennis and Gerbe were both listed as centers when they were drafted.

 

Maybe our lack of scouting led to an assumption that they both played center ice? :rolleyes:

[That Aud Smell]

It really is ridiculous in the sense that the NHL still drafts 18 year old projecting their suitability as professional athletes.

intriguing point. would the league ever look at pushing out the age of eligibility? the way it works now, your success in the draft seems equally attributable to due diligence/talent evaluation and good (dumb?) luck.

[LabattBlue]

Ennis and Gerbe were both listed as centers when they were drafted.

 

Maybe our lack of scouting led to an assumption that they both played center ice? :rolleyes:

I don't care what they were listed as by some website flunkie, Gerbe was never a center, and as previously stated, I am not positive how much time Ennis spent at center in juniors.

[shrader]

Unfortunately, the NHL draft is set up where just about no one after the first couple picks is a safe bet to be an NHL player, let alone a good one. The Sabres should stick to drafting the best players available in every round and hope for the best.

 

Maybe the Sabres would have another center in the system if they'd had a second round pick in either of the last two drafts. We traded those picks for players that came to Buffalo and did absolutely nothing for us. I'm hoping Boyes breaks the curse starting tonight.

 

They had 3 3rd round picks this past year, which probably balances out that lack of a 2nd round pick. One of those was used on center Kevin Sundher. Who knows what they would have taken if they had a 2nd, but there you go, a center in the system from the same portion of that draft.

 

But anyway, while we're suddenly crapping all over the draft results, I noticed this little trend:

 

2008 first 3 picks:

Myers, Ennis, Adam

 

2009 first 3 picks:

Kassian, McNabb, Foligno

 

That '09 group gets a lot of talk. Hopefully they live up to the 2008 trio. And if they do, hopefully the '10 trio of Pysyk, Gauthier-Leduc, and Sundher keeps that going. That right there would be a great organizational building block, be it through actual player development or trades.

 

 

Blue, Gerbe didn't "almost exclusively" play wing at BC. He did exclusively play wing. I didn't include him when I listed those drafted centers earlier. This makes me realize another potential change in the numbers I counted. Some of the listed positions may have been changed since the time of the draft. It also didn't include Tim Kennedy, who we didn't actually draft, but may as well have.