Off-season Game Plan 2024

[nfreeman]

8 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

You think the jury is still out on KA as a pro player evaluator? I think the jury has returned a verdict.   He’s guilty of being terrible.

Good - Tuch

Mediocre - Greenway, Anderson, and Clifton

Bad - Comrie, Bjork, Lyubushkin, E Johnson, Robinson, Hall, E Staal, Krebs, Jost, Stillman, Dell, Pysyk, Eakin, Hagg, Butcher, Hayden and Subban.  

You can add his terrible decisions to re-sign Okposo, Jost, and Girgensons and the failure to move on from Olofsson.  

I’d say that’s a piss poor record of pro talent evaluation.  That’s what you get when you shop at the clearance bin at Walmart and have no clue how to construct a roster.

I think Greenway is a pretty good 3rd liner and Anderson and Clifton were decent.  Hall was terrible but I think that move was driven by Krueger.

As for the rest -- I agree that these were all bargain bin guys -- that was kinda my point.  To date his pro acquisitions have all been low risk, low reward.  This has been by design -- i.e. his plan has been to develop the young players into guys that can fill key roles -- not to bring in expensive, veteran NHL guys to fill those roles.  It sounds like he's now interested in shopping in the more expensive aisles (although not the premium aisles) for a couple of middle-six forwards. 

Before the Byram trade, KA hadn't previously spent any real assets or money to bring in valuable NHL players, other than the Eichel trade, where he had a gun to his head and needed to make chicken salad out of chicken poop.  I don't think the bargain bin shopping is an indicator either way of how he'll do if and when he steps up to the big boy table.

You can be unhappy with the state of the team, as we all are, and can hold KA accountable, which is more than fair (although it's worth noting that his team last season far outperformed the teams iced by Botteril, whom you unaccountably continue to defend).  I'm just saying that he's entering a new phase, and I'm curious to see how he performs.

 

52 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

Sam Bennett is the type of mother ***** this team needs. Good analytics, would be a good 2-3 C. 
 

Oh and the Bruins hate him 

Hell yes -- he is exactly what the doctor ordered for the Sabres.  However, his cap hit is only $4.425MM -- that's not enough for the Panthers to feel like they need to cut him loose.  He's too valuable for them to do so.

[Weave]

53 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

And that my friend is how your city loses your only two Top Pro Sport teams.

You allow yourself to be held hostage.  The rest of us refuse to be submissive to this ownership.

[Flashsabre]

https://www.prohockeyrumors.com/2024/05/sabres-turning-away-trade-interest-in-mattias-samuelsson.html

[dudacek]

47 minutes ago, Thorny said:

I don’t even think it’s some nefarious thing, liger is right they take on the mindset of the organization, but they more less imbibe it: the top-down refusal to measure results in the now becomes part of a fabric of their developing identity 

Some recognize it and ask out 

Don’t forget that Jack specifically said on record he asked to be dealt *because* Adams wanted to rebuild. We didn’t have to rebuild because Jack wanted out 

I'm familiar with the quote in question. Don't buy what this implies.

The entire nightmare that was the 20/21 season was specifically in response to an unhappy Jack wanting to win now or leave, and Krueger convincing Pegula they could.

Adams launched his rebuild (and became the actual GM in the process) after that failed.

Jack ultimately demanded a trade because of the organization's failures, yes. But this was hardly a case of him being a good soldier patiently waiting until Adams unnecessarily forced him out.

He had made his unhappiness well-known long before Adams was hired. Adams decision to rebuild came during what was probably the worst stretch of hockey in franchise history.

We did have to rebuild whether Jack wanted out or not. And the evidence suggests to me he wanted out regardless.

I see his 'Because Adams wanted to rebuild' as convenience as much as truth.

[thewookie1]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

You allow yourself to be held hostage.  The rest of us refuse to be submissive to this ownership.

It's very simple logic especially when regarding tax dollars which sucks but are part of what it means to do business with major sports in a smaller city.

[Brawndo]

2 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I think Greenway is a pretty good 3rd liner and Anderson and Clifton were decent.  Hall was terrible but I think that move was driven by Krueger.

As for the rest -- I agree that these were all bargain bin guys -- that was kinda my point.  To date his pro acquisitions have all been low risk, low reward.  This has been by design -- i.e. his plan has been to develop the young players into guys that can fill key roles -- not to bring in expensive, veteran NHL guys to fill those roles.  It sounds like he's now interested in shopping in the more expensive aisles (although not the premium aisles) for a couple of middle-six forwards. 

Before the Byram trade, KA hadn't previously spent any real assets or money to bring in valuable NHL players, other than the Eichel trade, where he had a gun to his head and needed to make chicken salad out of chicken poop.  I don't think the bargain bin shopping is an indicator either way of how he'll do if and when he steps up to the big boy table.

You can be unhappy with the state of the team, as we all are, and can hold KA accountable, which is more than fair (although it's worth noting that his team last season far outperformed the teams iced by Botteril, whom you unaccountably continue to defend).  I'm just saying that he's entering a new phase, and I'm curious to see how he performs.

 

Hell yes -- he is exactly what the doctor ordered for the Sabres.  However, his cap hit is only $4.425MM -- that's not enough for the Panthers to feel like they need to cut him loose.  He's too valuable for them to do so.

Florida has 19.7 Million in cap space with 14 skaters on the roster for next year.

Their UFAs include Reinhart, Tarasenko, Montour, Lomberg and Lundell is a RFA. 
 

Some on the list are rumored to be willing to give a home team discount namely the two former Sabres. 
 

They have traded a lot of draft capital and prospects for their cup runs and are scheduled to go 4 years without making a first round pick.

Bennett, whose name has appeared in the rumor mill, with one year left on his deal is the most attractive asset they have to recoup assets and make some cap room
 

 

[dudacek]

1 minute ago, Brawndo said:

Florida has 19.7 Million in cap space with 14 skaters on the roster for next year.

Their UFAs include Reinhart, Tarasenko, Montour, Lomberg and Lundell is a RFA. 
 

Some on the list are rumored to be willing to give a home team discount namely the two former Sabres. 
 

They have traded a lot of draft capital and prospects for their cup runs and are scheduled to go 4 years without making a first round pick.

Bennett, whose name has appeared in the rumor mill, with one year left on his deal is the most attractive asset they have to recoup assets and make some cap room
 

 

Bennett is the type of asset in the type of situation I talked about earlier that may become available the same way Reinhart became a available.

He is also the type of asset that generally costs the same type of price Reinhart cost: a 1st and a prospect.

Finally, he is exactly the type of player this team needs: a good, nasty, middle-six veteran forward.

I need @nfreeman or someone to swoop in here with a “they’re not trading Bennett” type post.

You’re like selling the dream here and I can’t afford to get my hopes up.

[SabreFinn]

1 hour ago, Brawndo said:

Florida has 19.7 Million in cap space with 14 skaters on the roster for next year.

Their UFAs include Reinhart, Tarasenko, Montour, Lomberg and Lundell is a RFA. 
 

Some on the list are rumored to be willing to give a home team discount namely the two former Sabres. 
 

They have traded a lot of draft capital and prospects for their cup runs and are scheduled to go 4 years without making a first round pick.

Bennett, whose name has appeared in the rumor mill, with one year left on his deal is the most attractive asset they have to recoup assets and make some cap room
 

 

I think they want to resign Reinhard and keep Lundell, and a way to make that possible is trading Bennett. On the other hand, Tkachuk and Bennett are buddies and play extremely well together, especially playoff hockey.

[Thorny]

4 hours ago, dudacek said:

I'm familiar with the quote in question. Don't buy what this implies.

The entire nightmare that was the 20/21 season was specifically in response to an unhappy Jack wanting to win now or leave, and Krueger convincing Pegula they could.

Adams launched his rebuild (and became the actual GM in the process) after that failed.

Jack ultimately demanded a trade because of the organization's failures, yes. But this was hardly a case of him being a good soldier patiently waiting until Adams unnecessarily forced him out.

He had made his unhappiness well-known long before Adams was hired. Adams decision to rebuild came during what was probably the worst stretch of hockey in franchise history.

We did have to rebuild whether Jack wanted out or not. And the evidence suggests to me he wanted out regardless.

I see his 'Because Adams wanted to rebuild' as convenience as much as truth.

No I disagree. From what I’ve heard, Adams plan to rebuild was initially going to be put into place before Eichel ever made a request, it’s indeed what spawned the request - which led to the “college try”’ 2021. I absolutely disagree that Covid year ripe with anomalies (including a hurt Jack for most of it, and a bogus Hall, and a Krueger as a result of a duped Adams and Pegula), represents *CLOSE* to a reasonable sample size of evidence a massive rebuild was necessary - a rebuild that takes 5 years to make the playoffs is NEVER necessary - but even a long form rebuild - absolutely disagree

it’s why I keep saying if Adams gets canned a new GM need not elect to institute a long form plan. I do not believe it was necessary when Adams took over. Reinhart specially said he was open to a contract - according to popular opinion we bridged him due to Covid, but that certainly was a choice and didn’t need to be the case 

- - - 

We are also taking the *actual GM* thing way too far. It’s ok to score an argument point on a message board and for us all to agree the true rebuild started a year later, but Adams WAS the actual GM in 2021 lol. We’ve cemented the narrative so hard it’s like we are literally saying we can’t analyze his work that year: which would be absurd. We can agree not to “count” it for the sake of arguments but I think you are conflating it with the reality: he was still partially responsible for the construction of that win now team as well: so some of its blame falls to him

Edited May 14 by Thorny

[dudacek]

3 hours ago, Thorny said:

No I disagree. From what I’ve heard, Adams plan to rebuild was initially going to be put into place before Eichel ever made a request, it’s indeed what spawned the request - which led to the “college try”’ 2021. I absolutely disagree that Covid year ripe with anomalies (including a hurt Jack for most of it, and a bogus Hall, and a Krueger as a result of a duped Adams and Pegula), represents *CLOSE* to a reasonable sample size of evidence a massive rebuild was necessary - a rebuild that takes 5 years to make the playoffs is NEVER necessary - but even a long form rebuild - absolutely disagree

it’s why I keep saying if Adams gets canned a new GM need not elect to institute a long form plan. I do not believe it was necessary when Adams took over. Reinhart specially said he was open to a contract - according to popular opinion we bridged him due to Covid, but that certainly was a choice and didn’t need to be the case 

- - - 

We are also taking the *actual GM* thing way too far. It’s ok to score an argument point on a message board and for us all to agree the true rebuild started a year later, but Adams WAS the actual GM in 2021 lol. We’ve cemented the narrative so hard it’s like we are literally saying we can’t analyze his work that year: which would be absurd. We can agree not to “count” it for the sake of arguments but I think you are conflating it with the reality: he was still partially responsible for the construction of that win now team as well: so some of its blame falls to him

it's pretty thoroughly acknowledged that Adams went to Florida during the 18-game skid with his "plan to fix this" and Terry signed off

Even putting aside the Jack argument, at that time Ullmark, Reinhart, Montour, Ristolainen, McCabe and Hall — nearly every established vet on the team — were free agents who were not planning on re-signing.

And this was a team in the midst of an historically bad season, on the heels of 3 consecutive years of considerably worse hockey than what we just watched, with what virtually everyone seemed to agree was a toxic culture and locker room.

You can debate what form the rebuild needed to take, but I can't imagine circumstances where one was was more warranted than the Sabres in the spring of 2021 (edited)

As for the bold, I think my initial post covers my thoughts.

***

Of course Adams was, at the very least, complicit in that first year and takes some of the blame. My point remains, and, if anything, your post kinda adds to it: if Adams had a rebuild plan in the summer of 2020 and was talked out of/not allowed to execute it by Pegula, Krueger, Eichel or others, and instead simply carried out someone else's plan, how much of a real GM was he?

Edited May 15 by dudacek

[nfreeman]

6 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Florida has 19.7 Million in cap space with 14 skaters on the roster for next year.

Their UFAs include Reinhart, Tarasenko, Montour, Lomberg and Lundell is a RFA. 
 

Some on the list are rumored to be willing to give a home team discount namely the two former Sabres. 
 

They have traded a lot of draft capital and prospects for their cup runs and are scheduled to go 4 years without making a first round pick.

Bennett, whose name has appeared in the rumor mill, with one year left on his deal is the most attractive asset they have to recoup assets and make some cap room
 

 

Well, I'm sure Florida would like to keep Montour and Tarasenko, but they will definitely prioritize Bennett over those 2, and Lomberg won't cost much.

Reino and Lundell are interesting though, to be sure.  I think Reino will probably cost them $10MM per year, and if they give Lundell a long-term deal, they will have to pay a higher AAV than his scoring production would seem to support -- maybe $6MM per year?

 

5 hours ago, dudacek said:

Bennett is the type of asset in the type of situation I talked about earlier that may become available the same way Reinhart became a available.

He is also the type of asset that generally costs the same type of price Reinhart cost: a 1st and a prospect.

Finally, he is exactly the type of player this team needs: a good, nasty, middle-six veteran forward.

I need @nfreeman or someone to swoop in here with a “they’re not trading Bennett” type post.

You’re like selling the dream here and I can’t afford to get my hopes up.

No one needs to convince me to want Bennett.  I just have a hard time believing that Florida would move him for futures to create cap space.  I think they will sacrifice elsewhere.

Having said that, it's possible that they misjudge the situation, or that Bennett demands too much cash, or something else happens that makes him available.  I would give them #11 and any of Kulich, Rosen, Östlund or Savoie in a heartbeat for him IF the deal included him signing an extension.

Maybe we'll get lucky on this one.

 

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

it's pretty thoroughly acknowledged that Adams went to Florida during the 18-game skid with his "plan to fix this" and Terry signed off

Even putting aside the Jack argument, at that time Ullmark, Reinhart, Montour, Ristolainen, McCabe and Hall — nearly every established vet on the team — were unrestricted free agents who were not planning on re-signing.

And this was a team in the midst of an historically bad season, on the heels of 3 consecutive years of considerably worse hockey than what we just watched, with what virtually everyone seemed to agree was a toxic culture and locker room.

You can debate what form the rebuild needed to take, but I can't imagine circumstances where one was was more warranted than the Sabres in the spring of 2020.

As for the bold, I think my initial post covers my thoughts.

***

Of course Adams was, at the very least, complicit in that first year and takes some of the blame. My point remains, and, if anything, your post kinda adds to it: if Adams had a rebuild plan in the summer of 2020 and was talked out of/not allowed to execute it by Pegula, Krueger, Eichel or others, and instead simply carried out someone else's plan, how much of a real GM was he?

Excellent post, but are you perhaps referring to the spring/summer of 2021 (not 2020)?

[GASabresIUFAN]

9 hours ago, nfreeman said:

I don't think the bargain bin shopping is an indicator either way of how he'll do if and when he steps up to the big boy table.

He was supposed to put his big boy pants on last off-season and he did spend the most he has spent an UFAs.  He spent 10 million on Clifton (3 x 3.33) and 3.25 on one year of Eric Johnson; one 3rd pairing player and one player working his way out of the NHL when he needed partner for either Dahlin or Power.  How has that worked out?  The 2 years prior he desperately needed goaltending to bridge the gap until his prospects developed and instead of investing in real goaltending to support the rebuild he gave us Dell, Anderson and Comrie.  You can't tell me there weren't better options available.

In addition he has completely failed to properly support the team in season.  Jost and Robinson isn't support.  Getting crap players like Stillman at the deadline isn't support.  Trading your 3rd line center while in contention without a backup plan for a redundant D isn't support.  The only quality deadline move so far is a 2nd for Greenway and he was having a terrible season when acquired.  

This team has missed the playoff the last 2 seasons because our terrible GM has no idea how to fix the problems with his roster.  All he is going to do this off-season is more Taylor Hall type gestures.  

[Broken Ankles]

This would be a nice start to Free Agency. 
 

 

[nfreeman]

1 hour ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

He was supposed to put his big boy pants on last off-season and he did spend the most he has spent an UFAs.  He spent 10 million on Clifton (3 x 3.33) and 3.25 on one year of Eric Johnson; one 3rd pairing player and one player working his way out of the NHL when he needed partner for either Dahlin or Power.  How has that worked out?  The 2 years prior he desperately needed goaltending to bridge the gap until his prospects developed and instead of investing in real goaltending to support the rebuild he gave us Dell, Anderson and Comrie.  You can't tell me there weren't better options available.

In addition he has completely failed to properly support the team in season.  Jost and Robinson isn't support.  Getting crap players like Stillman at the deadline isn't support.  Trading your 3rd line center while in contention without a backup plan for a redundant D isn't support.  The only quality deadline move so far is a 2nd for Greenway and he was having a terrible season when acquired.  

This team has missed the playoff the last 2 seasons because our terrible GM has no idea how to fix the problems with his roster.  All he is going to do this off-season is more Taylor Hall type gestures.  

Dude.

No one is under any misapprehension as to your feelings on KA. 

You are well justified in your dissatisfaction with him and the team, but still -- all I said was that he's potentially about to undertake a particular action as GM that we've not yet seen.

You don't need to grace us with the full screed, even if you are still outraged about his trade of Casey ("66 goals in 357 career games") MIttelstadt.

[GASabresIUFAN]

Just now, nfreeman said:

Dude.

No one is under any misapprehension as to your feelings on KA. 

You are well justified in your dissatisfaction with him and the team, but still -- all I said was that he's potentially about to undertake a particular action as GM that we've not yet seen.

You don't need to grace us with the full screed, even if you are still outraged about his trade of Casey ("66 goals in 357 career games") MIttelstadt.

I'm not pissed that he traded Casey.  If you look at my posts from last off-season, I felt even before the season that KA would trade Casey.  I was pissed that he was traded without an immediate and adequate backup plan at 3C and a for a redundant defenseman.  

Also your "66 goals" post is a silly stat.  Casey's job was to create for his teammates which he did very well.  He has 77 assists for the Sabres in his last 144 games (last 2 season before the trade) with the club including 59 at EV.  Tuch is the only other playmaking forward on the team as good as Casey was.  

I understand that you still have hope that this leopard will change his spots and will finally do what must be done.  I get it.  Unfortunately, he has had multiple opportunities to get the necessary upgrades and we have yet to see him make the necessary move.  I truly don't understand why you think it will be different this time.  For all of our sakes, I hope you prove me wrong!

[nfreeman]

50 minutes ago, Broken Ankles said:

This would be a nice start to Free Agency. 
 

 

So here's some info on Dakota Joshua:

- Pretty cool name.

- C, 6'3", 206 lbs.

- Only 2 full NHL seasons, and he he turns 28 tomorrow.  Drafted in the 5th round in 2014 by Toronto.  Played 4 seasons at Ohio State, then part-time in the AHL for 3 seasons, then 2 seasons with Vancouver.

- Played 11 min per game last year for the Canucks and 14:23 per game for them this year, with 18-14-32 in 63 games. 

- 60 PIM per year for the last 2 years.  5 fights last year and 4 this year.

He seems like a 4th-liner, but at the right price I'm interested.

[French Collection]

3 hours ago, nfreeman said:

So here's some info on Dakota Joshua:

- Pretty cool name.

- C, 6'3", 206 lbs.

- Only 2 full NHL seasons, and he he turns 28 tomorrow.  Drafted in the 5th round in 2014 by Toronto.  Played 4 seasons at Ohio State, then part-time in the AHL for 3 seasons, then 2 seasons with Vancouver.

- Played 11 min per game last year for the Canucks and 14:23 per game for them this year, with 18-14-32 in 63 games. 

- 60 PIM per year for the last 2 years.  5 fights last year and 4 this year.

He seems like a 4th-liner, but at the right price I'm interested.

Vancouver has moved him around the line up, some stints into the top 6 and PP.

I think he could definitely help. He hasn’t played much C at the NHL level but he has won more than 50% of his draws. He’s a winger but could take some draws if he was used properly.

[Thorny]

14 hours ago, dudacek said:

it's pretty thoroughly acknowledged that Adams went to Florida during the 18-game skid with his "plan to fix this" and Terry signed off

Even putting aside the Jack argument, at that time Ullmark, Reinhart, Montour, Ristolainen, McCabe and Hall — nearly every established vet on the team — were free agents who were not planning on re-signing.

And this was a team in the midst of an historically bad season, on the heels of 3 consecutive years of considerably worse hockey than what we just watched, with what virtually everyone seemed to agree was a toxic culture and locker room.

You can debate what form the rebuild needed to take, but I can't imagine circumstances where one was was more warranted than the Sabres in the spring of 2021 (edited)

As for the bold, I think my initial post covers my thoughts.

***

Of course Adams was, at the very least, complicit in that first year and takes some of the blame. My point remains, and, if anything, your post kinda adds to it: if Adams had a rebuild plan in the summer of 2020 and was talked out of/not allowed to execute it by Pegula, Krueger, Eichel or others, and instead simply carried out someone else's plan, how much of a real GM was he?

To your ending question: I suppose we’ll never know, as apparently all Adams is next year, too, is a combination of Pegula’s budget constraints and Lindy Ruff’s reshaping of the roster 

I cannot agree with much of any of the framing of your post relative to the extent of the “rebuild” we needed to undertake. What we’ve gotten is so far off the map in terms of futility that I’ve only become more certain over time an attempt to turn over into a playoff contender with immediacy was the correct course of action to take. I absolutely do not agree we needed a “rebuild” in 2021 the way you use the term. Jack and Sam didn’t need to be traded (and you utter revisionism on Ullmark need not apply. We could have signed him) 

Jack was a Sabre. Adams said he wanted to rebuild. Jack said ok trade me. Team said ok we’ll give winning a shot. Team barely gave it the old college try over an anomalific 40 game COVID season and then threw their hands up on the air and said “we are inept and can’t do it, we are going back to the rebuild plan” and Eichel was gonzo behind the guise of the injury 

Adams Kruger and Pegula being terrible in 2021 didn’t prove to me I wanted Adams undertaking an even longer, riskier, rebuild encompassing more of my years on this earth. Absolutely the opposite lol. 2021 didn’t prove *anything*, I cannot stress this enough. We already knew the team needed to be fixed: it did not represent any sort of evidence that a quicker fix would not have been more apropos (like how the majority of the rest of the league does it), it just illustrated that those in charge failed, and that the season was ripe with Covid related anomalies 

the “long form” rebuild has failed significantly more throughly and for a much longer period of time and we are still going at it 

you said it yourself: Adams views this year as a “blip”. An 82 game failure. The covid season was much less convincing. Why couldn’t that be a blip? 

We know the answer, and it’s the initial instigating issue: we ALWAYS knew it - Adams bias is the long form build. It’s what he wanted when he first took over and he was always going to find a way to get it there

So no, I know we agree on the timeline to success now, that last year was a failure on expectations and the deadline for playoffs is this coming season: but I can’t agree and will never agree the plan made sense upon conception. I’ve always stuck with my opinion that it’s been a failure of execution, yes, but also conception. I hated it from “go””, I thought it was an awful idea relative to where the franchise and fanbase was (this has borne out accurate) and, again speaking for myself, the last 4 years have have been orders of magnitude beyond the previous 3 before that in terms of a horrid product to follow 

- - - 

Kevyn Adams “go for it” try with Jack Eichel encompassed all of *21 games*. I think people forget this. That’s not a reasonable sample size. It’s not even a sample size. I do not believe there’s a more salient point to be made in this discussion 

Also, I don’t know what you are getting at with your “3 years of considerably worse hockey.” 19-20 our total was a prorated 81 points. So, we needed to undertake a 5 year plan to get to, checks notes…84 points. What are we even doing here 

Edited May 15 by Thorny

[GASabresIUFAN]

I’m interested in guys like Stephenson and Bennett, but I don’t see them coming here unless we pay stupid money. In fact, I’ve yet to see a list of available players where I look and think that’s a guy who can help us and would be willing to come to Buffalo given the state of our franchise.
 

I’m curious if fellow Sabrespacers have seen a list of UFAs or even available contracted players with trade protection who you think would want to come here.  Who are some of the players on that list?

[dudacek]

2 hours ago, Thorny said:

To your ending question: I suppose we’ll never know, as apparently all Adams is next year, too, is a combination of Pegula’s budget constraints and Lindy Ruff’s reshaping of the roster 

I cannot agree with much of any of the framing of your post relative to the extent of the “rebuild” we needed to undertake. What we’ve gotten is so far off the map in terms of futility that I’ve only become more certain over time an attempt to turn over into a playoff contender with immediacy was the correct course of action to take. I absolutely do not agree we needed a “rebuild” in 2021 the way you use the term. Jack and Sam didn’t need to be traded (and you utter revisionism on Ullmark need not apply. We could have signed him) 

Jack was a Sabre. Adams said he wanted to rebuild. Jack said ok trade me. Team said ok we’ll give winning a shot. Team barely gave it the old college try over an anomalific 40 game COVID season and then threw their hands up on the air and said “we are inept and can’t do it, we are going back to the rebuild plan” and Eichel was gonzo behind the guise of the injury 

Adams Kruger and Pegula being terrible in 2021 didn’t prove to me I wanted Adams undertaking an even longer, riskier, rebuild encompassing more of my years on this earth. Absolutely the opposite lol. 2021 didn’t prove *anything*, I cannot stress this enough. We already knew the team needed to be fixed: it did not represent any sort of evidence that a quicker fix would not have been more apropos (like how the majority of the rest of the league does it), it just illustrated that those in charge failed, and that the season was ripe with Covid related anomalies 

the “long form” rebuild has failed significantly more throughly and for a much longer period of time and we are still going at it 

you said it yourself: Adams views this year as a “blip”. An 82 game failure. The covid season was much less convincing. Why couldn’t that be a blip? 

We know the answer, and it’s the initial instigating issue: we ALWAYS knew it - Adams bias is the long form build. It’s what he wanted when he first took over and he was always going to find a way to get it there

So no, I know we agree on the timeline to success now, that last year was a failure on expectations and the deadline for playoffs is this coming season: but I can’t agree and will never agree the plan made sense upon conception. I’ve always stuck with my opinion that it’s been a failure of execution, yes, but also conception. I hated it from “go””, I thought it was an awful idea relative to where the franchise and fanbase was (this has borne out accurate) and, again speaking for myself, the last 4 years have have been orders of magnitude beyond the previous 3 before that in terms of a horrid product to follow 

- - - 

Kevyn Adams “go for it” try with Jack Eichel encompassed all of *21 games*. I think people forget this. That’s not a reasonable sample size. It’s not even a sample size. I do not believe there’s a more salient point to be made in this discussion 

Also, I don’t know what you are getting at with your “3 years of considerably worse hockey.” 19-20 our total was a prorated 81 points. So, we needed to undertake a 5 year plan to get to, checks notes…84 points. What are we even doing here 

"Utter revisionism" on Ulmark is strong.  I thought about pulling him out and rewriting that portion and decided "long already, people know the history."

Ultimately he didn't re-sign and has told the media since that after his Dad died during COVID he could have never stayed in Buffalo. You can remove him from the equation if you want, but the point about most of the better veterans being done with Buffalo still stands.

"Considerably worse hockey" simply meant this:

• 2023/24: .512
• 2020/21: .330
• 2019/20:: .493
• 2018/19: .463
• 2017/18: .378

As for the rest, arguing against the degree of the rebuild is entirely fair. Personally, I don't think a quick fix built around Eichel was going to work for reasons I've already outlined.

To the bold, the Krueger COVID year was far and away the worst year of my fandom. Only thing that came close was the year we bottomed out and Bowman got fired. The 2 years previous to this one were (sadly) 2 of the 3 best since Pegula bought the team.

Edited May 15 by dudacek

[Thorny]

20 minutes ago, dudacek said:

"Utter revisionism" on Ulmark is strong.  I thought about pulling him out and rewriting that portion and decided "long already, people know the history."

Ultimately he didn't re-sign and has told the media since that after his Dad died during COVID he could have never stayed in Buffalo. You can remove him from the equation if you want, but the point about most of the better veterans being done with Buffalo still stands.

"Considerably worse hockey" simply meant this:

• 2023/24: .512
• 2020/21: .330
• 2019/20:: .493
• 2018/19: .463
• 2017/18: .378

As for the rest, arguing against the degree of the rebuild is entirely fair. Personally, I don't think a quick fix built around Eichel was going to work for reasons I've already outlined.

To the bold, the Krueger COVID year was far and away the worst year of my fandom. The 2 years previous to this one were (sadly) 2 of the 3 best since Pegula bought the team.

Ya that’s interesting, the Covid year was never that bad for me. It was short, it was weird, a bunch of teams were doing weird things, and my mind was more usually that normal occupied with things beyond sports. I also knew it didn’t represent much of a verdict on anything: like I said Jack barely played, and he was hurt for the games he did. 

Of course I’m arguing against the “extent of the rebuild” because that’s the topic at hand: we can’t just call any collection of fixes to the team a “rebuild”. Obviously we needed fixes. We can debate the connotation of rebuild but the topic at hand is whether a rebuild where winning wouldn’t be expected until year 4 needed to be put in place, Adams’ specific rebuild, and my answer to that is an easy, definitive “no.”

I don’t think *any* team should institute a 4/5 year plan - making the playoffs is not hard, I’ve mentioned many times I find it to entirely be a lie sold to fans. So yes I of course also think it shouldn’t be applied in our situation where the fanbase was even more starving for a playoff berth than everyone other 

don’t call it a “quick fix”. Call it: fixing your team without setting aside 5 years to do it, wasting all of our time. The turnover from bad to playoffs is demonstrably significantly quicker on average than even just Adams’ term so far 

Quick fix has a poor connotation that I’m not putting my post behind 

Occam’s razor, please: Adams wanted the longer runway and the accompanying job security. Botterill did too “tear down to the studs”. It’s not a hot take, plenty of these guys prefer that situation 

- - - 

Going in circles a bit with the vet point: I entirely disagree. Eichel and Reinhart were done because Adams wanted to rebuild, we didn’t need to rebuild cause they were done. So I do not agree the veterans point stands 

.493 to .512 is 3 points. That’s not considerable. The irony is that the only considerably worse year, 17-18, was by way of this stupid “tear down to the studs and build up” mentality 

Edited May 15 by Thorny

[Brawndo]

 

[Thorny]

4 minutes ago, Brawndo said:

 

Ah gaddamn I almost made it to the hypothetical returns before the subscribe noti popped up. I do like the first line results in second line minutes bit (maybe someone can help me out with what I couldn’t get to)

people will look at him “only” having one year left on his deal as a bad thing (yes, I know, one year doesn’t have value as a human being. We get endless. It’s not like my entire fandom hangs on because of a solitary season in the last 20 years (2006)) but to me it’s a good thing that should facilitate a trade to a team willing to prioritize next year and worry about the rest later 

it won’t be us 

Edited May 15 by Thorny

[steveoath]

***** it. Get Sam Bennett and Nick Cousins. Run them on a line with Greenway or Benson. 

[Brawndo]

9 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Ah gaddamn I almost made it to the hypothetical returns before the subscribe noti popped up. I do like the first line results in second line minutes bit (maybe someone can help me out with what I couldn’t get to)

people will look at him “only” having one year left on his deal as a bad thing (yes, I know, one year doesn’t have value as a human being. We get endless. It’s not like my entire fandom hangs on because of a solitary season in the last 20 years (2006)) but to me it’s a good thing that should facilitate a trade to a team willing to prioritize next year and worry about the rest later 

it won’t be us 

Buffalo has one of the most exciting groups of young talent in the NHL, with Tage Thompson, Dylan Cozens, Rasmus Dahlin and JJ Peterka supplemented by Owen Power, Zach Benson, Jack Quinn, Peyton Krebs and Bowen Byram. All of these players are either locked up long-term or under team control as restricted free agents. In some ways, this makes Ehlers a perfect fit: Buffalo could absorb his $6 million AAV in 2024-25, while not being tied to it the following season — which just so happens to be when Peterka, Quinn and Byram will all need new contracts.

The Sabres played to a positive goal differential last season, despite missing the playoffs by seven points. They’re an intriguing mix of on the way up and in need of improvement, whether it comes from their own development or an upgrade like Ehlers. Buffalo also has the top prospect pool in the NHL and all of its own picks in the first four rounds of the next three drafts, offering a ton of options for futures-based trades. Matthew Fairburn has recently written about the possibility of Buffalo moving the No. 11 pick.

That’s where things get tricky, though.

It’s easy to talk about that pick or to covet prospects like Noah Östlund. That calibre of prospect seems like a difficult ask for one year of Ehlers’ services. Matthew Savoie would have intrigue, too, but also seems like the sort of prospect Buffalo would resist moving. The undersized overager tore apart the WHL last season. Defencemen Ryan Johnson, Nikita Novikov and Maxim Strbak may also have appeal to the Jets, whose prospect pool is deeper up front than on the back end.