Casey Mittelstadt traded for Bowen Byram

[Weave]

2 hours ago, Doohickie said:

He doesn't need to be a bruiser to be effective.  Thinking that he does is a fallacy.

Most aren’t asking Power to be a bruiser.  Almost all of us are asking for him to start physically engaging.  He is at Phil Housley level of non-physicality.  That just doesn’t work if you aren’t a HOF level talent.

[Pimlach]

5 hours ago, JohnC said:

 

Why in the world would the GM trade Power? What he has done over the past few years is assemble enough talent (still young) to put together a top tier blueline. On top of that, that unit now has sufficient depth to absorb injuries. Our young goalie is playing at a surprisingly high-end level. He is currently supported by a young group of blueliners who are playing in front of him. Why would he trade a goalie like Power who is steadily getting better and will become one of the better defenders in the league. 

I just don't understand the logic of assembling a roster with the desire to then disassemble it. All teams have to wrestle with the cap. It's a challenge to do. The advantage that our GM has is that he has locked up his top talent sooner to get a discount rate. (For some, not you, he is criticized for it.) Because of these early signings he will have a little more room to maneuver when forced to decide who he can keep, and who he will be forced to move.  

I agree with you that at some point the will have to decide who to move out and who to bring in. But that's the cap conundrum that all teams have to wrestle with. I'm confident that Power won't be one of the players who will be moved because he will be one of our anchor/essential players that we will keep for a long time. 

John, very simply -  money 💰.  

Next year Bryam’s contract ends, Peterka and Quinn and UPL all coming up.  Plus who knows whet else gets added  

How much will he spend on defense?   Dahlin $11m , Power $8M, Muel is getting $4-5M,. Clifton $3.5M -  Byram is X?   There are 2 more defenders to pay. 

He can maybe bridge him at $6-7M but he didn’t do that for Mitts.  

So if you can’t or won’t sign Bryam you can trade him or trade someone else.  A possible someone else is Power, especially if Johnson looks good.  

I never said he would or should, but he could.   I can list the number of HoF defenseman traded, it’s a long list.  
 

No one said he is assembling and disassembling a roster.  But roster change happens all the time. Calgary traded Matt Tkachuk, right?   Adams already traded Eichel and Reinhart.  Why is this hard to fathom other than this - if Power’s game next year is similar to this season the perception in the NHL might be to not take him with his lofty $8m price tag.  

Maybe you can ask Adams about that contract ?  

Next season we will get a full year to evaluate Power and Bryam.  They are only  1 year apart in age.  If we can only keep one then pick the better one.  It is possible that Bryam is better.  We will see.  

[LGR4GM]

23 minutes ago, Weave said:

Most aren’t asking Power to be a bruiser.  Almost all of us are asking for him to start physically engaging.  He is at Phil Housley level of non-physicality.  That just doesn’t work if you aren’t a HOF level talent.

That is how he mainly played in College as well. Lots of using his reach and being not overly physical because everyone was smaller. 

[Pimlach]

7 hours ago, JohnC said:

I have a different view on Power and his style of play. You are absolutely right that he is not a banger. However, too many people get caught up with his humongous size and make the assumption that it should translate into a more physical style of play. That's not his game and will never be his game. He is a smart player (for his experience level) who is for the most part good at positioning. He's not the type of player who is going to knock a lot of players out of position. This big guy can skate and he is steadily widening his game on offense. I politely recommend that you wait a little longer before making a judgment on him. In my opinion, he is going to be a gem. 

I have defended Power all season.  
 

But he is softer than charmin and that has to change when your goalie gets piled on.  
 

I never said trade him.  I said he could be traded.  He could be traded if Bryam proves to be better and worthy of a big contract.  
 

This is a good problem.  

Edited March 13 by Pimlach

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

I have defended Power all season.  
 

But he is softer than charmin and that had a to change when your gets piled on.  
 

I never said trade him.  I said he could be traded.  He could be traded if Bryam proves to be better and worthy of a big contract.  
 

This is a good problem.  

I respectfully but strenuously disagree with your assessment of Power. There is no question that he is not a banger but that doesn't mean (to me) that he is a soft player. As far as "could" be traded that description can be applied to every player on the team and in the league. People have different perspectives and evaluations on players. That's OK.  

[PerreaultForever]

6 hours ago, JohnC said:

What can are we kicking down the road? There is an irony that you complain that we are not talented enough, and then complain that when you do get more talent that it is too burdensome to keep. You seem to be the type of guy who complains when getting up and then complains when going to bed. Sheeeeeesh!

You didn't read everything I said obviously. 

I have no issue with the talent. Byram is very good. I'm just looking forward and wondering how we make that work? Obviously there was a contract issue with Mitts so we got another player with a contract issue a year from now. That is the definition of kicking the can down the road. 

[mjd1001]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I respectfully but strenuously disagree with your assessment of Power. There is no question that he is not a banger but that doesn't mean (to me) that he is a soft player. As far as "could" be traded that description can be applied to every player on the team and in the league. People have different perspectives and evaluations on players. That's OK.  

Its obvious to me Power isn't a guy who likes contact. Say what you want about how accurate or not accurate 'hits' is as a stat, he has 1.59 hits per 60 minutes of play. For comparison, Zemgus has 11.17, Clifton has 9.5, even Dahlin has 5.4.  Only Skinner, Peterka, and R. Johnson have less on the team.

As far as the NHL goes, 184 D-men have played 40 or more games this year...He ranks 160th out of 184 in the league.

Now, that is hitting.  He can still play somewhat physical by using his body to shield people or deflect them in a certain direction. He can use it to win battles on the boards.  I don't see him doing a LOT of that now, but he can learn those things without being a big hitter.  

Or, he just might be a guy who plays like a small D-man, who is a good skater, good shot, good passer...who just happens to be in a bigger body.  

[PerreaultForever]

5 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Its obvious to me Power isn't a guy who likes contact. Say what you want about how accurate or not accurate 'hits' is as a stat, he has 1.59 hits per 60 minutes of play. For comparison, Zemgus has 11.17, Clifton has 9.5, even Dahlin has 5.4.  Only Skinner, Peterka, and R. Johnson have less on the team.

As far as the NHL goes, 184 D-men have played 40 or more games this year...He ranks 160th out of 184 in the league.

Now, that is hitting.  He can still play somewhat physical by using his body to shield people or deflect them in a certain direction. He can use it to win battles on the boards.  I don't see him doing a LOT of that now, but he can learn those things without being a big hitter.  

Or, he just might be a guy who plays like a small D-man, who is a good skater, good shot, good passer...who just happens to be in a bigger body.  

At this stage of his career I don't think you want that to be a thing. He's too young and physically under-developed. Yes, he's a big body, but he has not reached his peak development yet. Kid still needs to add muscle and he will. Consider Dahlin and how much stronger he looks this year. Able to take hits and deliver them. If Power is still not hitting people at 23 we have a problem. Not yet. 

Power is YOUNG. The expectation for some is way too high right now. 

[nfreeman]

10 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

You didn't read everything I said obviously. 

I have no issue with the talent. Byram is very good. I'm just looking forward and wondering how we make that work? Obviously there was a contract issue with Mitts so we got another player with a contract issue a year from now. That is the definition of kicking the can down the road. 

A player needing a contract isn't necessarily a contract issue.

As I said upthread, it's quite likely that KA thinks -- probably based on, among other factors, conversations with the agents about money -- that Mitts isn't worth what it would've cost to keep him, but that  Byram IS worth what it will cost to keep him.

In that scenario, Mitts presented a contract issue but Byram does not.

[Flashsabre]

The salary cap will continue to rise. All teams have to make decisions on roster decisions on a yearly basis.

A Dahlin-Byram-Power led backend would be gold. You then backfill with 3  lower paid men that fill roles. I think Byram is a core piece moving forward

UPL-Levi should give them very good goaltending for a couple years until you will have to make a financial decision on one or the other. 
 

Decisions have to be made but who knows what the future holds. Maybe they trade Tage in 2 years cause things don’t work out or other moves work out better. Skinner’s cap will come off the books one way or another as well.
 

Im just enjoying the ride of the big 3 on D right now and UPL coming into his own.

[PerreaultForever]

5 minutes ago, nfreeman said:

A player needing a contract isn't necessarily a contract issue.

As I said upthread, it's quite likely that KA thinks -- probably based on, among other factors, conversations with the agents about money -- that Mitts isn't worth what it would've cost to keep him, but that  Byram IS worth what it will cost to keep him.

In that scenario, Mitts presented a contract issue but Byram does not.

That's not wrong, and maybe Byram is worth the money more than Mitts was but we already paid Power a lot so I'm not sure it'll work. We pay him a boatload and that window we are building will be really small unless the cap goes up a lot. A really lot. 

I really don't want to end up stuck like the Leafs having to try to cobble together a bargain basement bottom six and depth D. It's a recipe that fails. It'll be very tricky to make this work as Quinn, Peterka and others also start to come up for raises. 

[JohnC]

13 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

You didn't read everything I said obviously. 

I have no issue with the talent. Byram is very good. I'm just looking forward and wondering how we make that work? Obviously there was a contract issue with Mitts so we got another player with a contract issue a year from now. That is the definition of kicking the can down the road. 

There isn't a team in the league that doesn't have to deal with the cap. It's part of the business landscape that can't be avoided by an franchise. Different teams are at different stages of competing. So, the timetable to seriously address it is different for all organizations.  Will the team at some point have to deal with that challenging issue? Of course they will, just like every other team in the league. So, what are you actually saying about the cap that is illuminating? Next season, Okposo, Olofsson and with the trade Mitts won't be on the roster. So some cap space will be available. I'm not concerned with the issue, especially recognizing that the GM, by locking up his top players sooner rather than later, has created my room to maneuver. If you want to fret about the future cap situation, then go ahead and do so. It's not an issue I'm really concerned about. 

[Flashsabre]

Message board 101: there’s always something to complain or bitch about😃

No good players, Not enough good players to compete, Too many good players will mess up the cap and these imaginary windows will close.

[PerreaultForever]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

There isn't a team in the league that doesn't have to deal with the cap. It's part of the business landscape that can't be avoided by an franchise. Different teams are at different stages of competing. So, the timetable to seriously address it is different for all organizations.  Will the team at some point have to deal with that challenging issue? Of course they will, just like every other team in the league. So, what are you actually saying about the cap that is illuminating? Next season, Okposo, Olofsson and with the trade Mitts won't be on the roster. So some cap space will be available. I'm not concerned with the issue, especially recognizing that the GM, by locking up his top players sooner rather than later, has created my room to maneuver. If you want to fret about the future cap situation, then go ahead and do so. It's not an issue I'm really concerned about. 

Well that's fine, and maybe it'll work out but I'm just thinking ahead. 

We will have a much clearer picture when we see what happens with UPL. That's the first cap/contract issue. 

I said long ago I figured Mitts would get traded simply because they had an idea of how much they'd pay a 3C, they saw him as a 3C but he saw himself as a 2C and that was a great divide so he had to go. 

Byram sees himself as a top pairing D. He is a top D guy for sure in terms of his offense. The issue for me is just Power and his contract. 30 million for 3 D is a LOT. I asked this earlier so for the capologists out there is there any team out there that has 30 million on their top 3 D? I don't think so. I could be wrong. 

[JohnC]

6 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well that's fine, and maybe it'll work out but I'm just thinking ahead. 

We will have a much clearer picture when we see what happens with UPL. That's the first cap/contract issue. 

I said long ago I figured Mitts would get traded simply because they had an idea of how much they'd pay a 3C, they saw him as a 3C but he saw himself as a 2C and that was a great divide so he had to go. 

Byram sees himself as a top pairing D. He is a top D guy for sure in terms of his offense. The issue for me is just Power and his contract. 30 million for 3 D is a LOT. I asked this earlier so for the capologists out there is there any team out there that has 30 million on their top 3 D? I don't think so. I could be wrong. 

Every team is constructed differently. If our best players are on the blueline, they will consume a larger portion of the cap than many other teams. There is no question that in the future the front office will have to make tough decisions regarding who to keep and who to move on. That's true not only for hockey but also for pro football and basketball. I'm not worried about it. 

I agree with you that Byram is a top D talent. I find the possibility of him paired with Dahlin to be an exciting prospect. Potentially one of the top pairs in the league. 

[nfreeman]

16 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Well that's fine, and maybe it'll work out but I'm just thinking ahead. 

We will have a much clearer picture when we see what happens with UPL. That's the first cap/contract issue. 

I said long ago I figured Mitts would get traded simply because they had an idea of how much they'd pay a 3C, they saw him as a 3C but he saw himself as a 2C and that was a great divide so he had to go. 

Byram sees himself as a top pairing D. He is a top D guy for sure in terms of his offense. The issue for me is just Power and his contract. 30 million for 3 D is a LOT. I asked this earlier so for the capologists out there is there any team out there that has 30 million on their top 3 D? I don't think so. I could be wrong. 

This is a legit concern, but I'd counter that (i) the cap will almost certain rise quite a bit during the span of the 3 contracts (assuming BB gets a long-term deal) and (ii) I don't think any team has 3 dmen who produce as much offense as those 3 presumably/hopefully will.

[DHawerchuk10]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

I respectfully but strenuously disagree with your assessment of Power. There is no question that he is not a banger but that doesn't mean (to me) that he is a soft player. As far as "could" be traded that description can be applied to every player on the team and in the league. People have different perspectives and evaluations on players. That's OK.  

I'm curious as to why you think he is not soft.  My expectations for Power are fairly low when it comes to physical play, but he almost looks like he is allergic to touching other players.

To be clear, I don't expect Power to run guys through the boards.  But to be an even marginal defenseman in the NHL, you have to clear forwards from the front of the net, and use your body to position opponents off along the boards or in the slot (e.g. Tallinder or Smehlik).  Power struggles mightily with this, and has been caught numerous times "reaching" and being solely focused on the puck, when he should be playing the body.   What have you seen that would refute this?  And I'm asking this respectfully, because maybe I'm just missing something.  I admittedly come from a different age of hockey, where if you didn't play the body as a defenseman, it was heresy.  But I would even think in this modern age, you would still have to make some attempt, no?

I understand that this could all change, and this part of his game could develop, but ignoring this aspect of his current play would be unwise and could indicate a shortcoming.

[...]

5 hours ago, RochesterExpat said:

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk. I will now pass my soap box on to the next poster.

 

[...]

Think of the return we could get for Power alone, then consider if we packaged him with one of our many highly-regarded prospects and a Victor Olofsson (the latter mainly for our benefit).

[Pimlach]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

There isn't a team in the league that doesn't have to deal with the cap. It's part of the business landscape that can't be avoided by an franchise. Different teams are at different stages of competing. So, the timetable to seriously address it is different for all organizations.  Will the team at some point have to deal with that challenging issue? Of course they will, just like every other team in the league. So, what are you actually saying about the cap that is illuminating? Next season, Okposo, Olofsson and with the trade Mitts won't be on the roster. So some cap space will be available. I'm not concerned with the issue, especially recognizing that the GM, by locking up his top players sooner rather than later, has created my room to maneuver. If you want to fret about the future cap situation, then go ahead and do so. It's not an issue I'm really concerned about. 

The potential issue we are discussing is not next year, it is the year after.  

All teams have to manage the Cap but the Sabres are the only team I know that paid a then 20 year old defenseman $8M/year after 87 NHL games.  How he develops in the next 2 years is going to continue to be a source of discussion.  Not so much because people don't like Power, everyone knows that most defenseman take time.  But more for the decision by Adams to lock him up so fast.   Depending on how much of the cap Adams will allocate to defense, Adams may have created less room to maneuver, not more.  

A few people on the board are talking about "Power hate".  Nothing I say comes from hate.   I am pointing out that things could get very interesting after next season with Byram, Peterka, UPL, and Quinn all looking for a payday.   Players that we cannot afford to keep will be traded before they can walk away.  We may be very surprised by who stays and who goes.  Wayne Gretzky got traded, any player can get traded.  

 

[Rasmus_]

Isn't this a Byram thread?  He's looked smooth and looks like a win on the back end so far.

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

Message board 101: there’s always something to complain or bitch about😃

No good players, Not enough good players to compete, Too many good players will mess up the cap and these imaginary windows will close.

Why do some posters think a conversation is complaining or bitching?   Isn't this what the board is for.  Should we all think alike? 

This is fans discussing and problem solving a problem they have no control over - that why fans are short for fanatic!  

As a life long Sabres fan since game 1, I am pleased to finally have enough talent in the system to actually be thinking about the Salary Cap.  

Edited March 13 by Pimlach

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, Pimlach said:

The potential issue we are discussing is not next year, it is the year after.  

All teams have to manage the Cap but the Sabres are the only team I know that paid a then 20 year old defenseman $8M/year after 87 NHL games.  How he develops in the next 2 years is going to continue to be a source of discussion.  Not so much because people don't like Power, everyone knows that most defenseman take time.  But more for the decision by Adams to lock him up so fast.   Depending on how much of the cap Adams will allocate to defense, Adams may have created less room to maneuver, not more.  

A few people on the board are talking about "Power hate".  Nothing I say comes from hate.   I am pointing out that things could get very interesting after next season with Byram, Peterka, UPL, and Quinn all looking for a payday.   Players that we cannot afford to keep will be traded before they can walk away.  We may be very surprised by who stays and who goes.  Wayne Gretzky got traded, any player can get traded.  

 

I don't put you in the category of hating Power. Where I have a nuanced disagreement with you is that I have a higher opinion of him as a player now and projecting his play in the future. I'll even go farther in projecting that from a talent/salary ratio: I believe that in locking him up sooner than he needed to the GM will in the end have gotten a better contract deal than if he waited to sign him to an extended deal. We shall see.  

 

4 hours ago, DHawerchuk10 said:

I'm curious as to why you think he is not soft.  My expectations for Power are fairly low when it comes to physical play, but he almost looks like he is allergic to touching other players.

To be clear, I don't expect Power to run guys through the boards.  But to be an even marginal defenseman in the NHL, you have to clear forwards from the front of the net, and use your body to position opponents off along the boards or in the slot (e.g. Tallinder or Smehlik).  Power struggles mightily with this, and has been caught numerous times "reaching" and being solely focused on the puck, when he should be playing the body.   What have you seen that would refute this?  And I'm asking this respectfully, because maybe I'm just missing something.  I admittedly come from a different age of hockey, where if you didn't play the body as a defenseman, it was heresy.  But I would even think in this modern age, you would still have to make some attempt, no?

I understand that this could all change, and this part of his game could develop, but ignoring this aspect of his current play would be unwise and could indicate a shortcoming.

Go back and read @LGR4GM draft report on Power. His style of play now matches the style of play he exhibited in college. In other words, the franchise knew how he played in college and knew what to expect after he was drafted. He's playing well now and will get a lot better. He's not a rampaging bull and will never be a knock him out bull. He's a horse that can move. What you buy is what you get. 

[Pimlach]

8 hours ago, matter2003 said:

Neither does Erik Karlsson.

I am not a fan of Erik Karlsson.  He has a ton of offensive talent, probably a HoF guy, but not my cup of tea. 

He had a 101 points last year, was a - 26, and that got him another Norris.  You can score and still be defensively responsible.  

 

[thewookie1]

1 hour ago, Pimlach said:

The potential issue we are discussing is not next year, it is the year after.  

All teams have to manage the Cap but the Sabres are the only team I know that paid a then 20 year old defenseman $8M/year after 87 NHL games.  How he develops in the next 2 years is going to continue to be a source of discussion.  Not so much because people don't like Power, everyone knows that most defenseman take time.  But more for the decision by Adams to lock him up so fast.   Depending on how much of the cap Adams will allocate to defense, Adams may have created less room to maneuver, not more.  

A few people on the board are talking about "Power hate".  Nothing I say comes from hate.   I am pointing out that things could get very interesting after next season with Byram, Peterka, UPL, and Quinn all looking for a payday.   Players that we cannot afford to keep will be traded before they can walk away.  We may be very surprised by who stays and who goes.  Wayne Gretzky got traded, any player can get traded.  

 

Sanderson on Ottawa got a similar contract with similar results/time in the league