Greenway on the market ?

[DarthEbriate]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Bruh (lol), you wanna know why Boqvist is at 0.43ppg and Joker is at 0.25ppg? Because you tell us with your very first sentence. 

Adam Boqvist, pts per 60: 1.2p/60 (2023)

Henri Jokiharju, pts per 60: 0.9p/60 (2023)

Boqvist gets more TOI and probably some better opportunities, in fact Jokihajru is actually higher at 5v5 pts/60 this season and was barely below Boqvist last year. Again, you can do this but that trade is basically Jokiharju and a 4th for Boqvist. 

The answer is powerplay time.

Joker is behind Dahlin and Power. Joker has 79 career PP minutes, and 38 of those were in his rookie season with Chicago. So 41.5 PP minutes in his five seasons as a Sabre.

Contrast that with Boqvist's 370.5 PP minutes and 27 career PP points in five seasons. That's where he's getting the point production. If you put Boqvist on the Sabres he's not getting PP time.

Now -- if you want to move Joker for a more rugged, shot-blocking, net-clearing type, maybe. But that's not what Boqvist is, either.

[LGR4GM]

2 minutes ago, seer775 said:

An improvement nonetheless. We need better Defenseman to take the pressure off Dahlin and Power. They'll almost certainly play better as a result.

Unless I do this for 5v5 and then it isn't. 0.8p60 for Boqvist and 1.0p60 5v5 for Jokiharju. Boqvist will not be getting PP time in Buffalo so you are better off taking those 5v5 numbers. 

Here you want to use corsi? 

Boqvist: 48.1

Joker: 49.7

What about xgf%

Boqvist: -2

Joker: 0.6

What are we doing here? You can trade Joker for Boqvist, I don't actually care but they are basically the same player. It doesn't move the needle. 

[seer775]

5 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Omg, this is annoying. Stop for a second. 

Jordan Greenway is only signed through next season at 3million dollars. After that his contract ends. Jack Quinn, JJP, Devon Levi, Ryan Johnson are all signed through next season as well so NO ONE gives a ***** about Greenway's 3 million bucks because it literally has no impact on any of those listed players. Krebs is going to get his qualifying offer and that's probably about it for his raise. Mitts can probably ask for 8mil if he wants but again, that fits under the cap easy and has no impact on keeping jordan greenway next year or signing any of the other listed players after next year. Stop spouting nonsense about having to pay players that are not up for new deals so we have to trade away Jordan Greenway. https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/sabres

If this ***** team is still rebuilding next year, I hope Adams and the lot of them are shipped to Siberia with Terry Pegula leading the way. 

Lol. It's about getting value on a player who is a UFA when we have a bunch of talent/picks to protect before we improve the roster.

It's not a huge deal if he stays or goes, but we get more back if we move him now versus letting him eat minutes on the 4th line. 

Edited January 9 by seer775

[seer775]

2 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Unless I do this for 5v5 and then it isn't. 0.8p60 for Boqvist and 1.0p60 5v5 for Jokiharju. Boqvist will not be getting PP time in Buffalo so you are better off taking those 5v5 numbers. 

Here you want to use corsi? 

Boqvist: 48.1

Joker: 49.7

What about xgf%

Boqvist: -2

Joker: 0.6

What are we doing here? You can trade Joker for Boqvist, I don't actually care but they are basically the same player. It doesn't move the needle. 

Fair enough. There are better players to trade for. Boqvist is low hanging fruit. With a bit more ambition and a few more bullets in the magazine KA can try for someone better. 

[LGR4GM]

Just now, seer775 said:

Lol. It's not about the cap. It's about getting value on a player who is a UFA when we have a bunch to keep and a bunch more to bring in. 

It's not a huge deal if he stays or goes, but we get more back if we move him now versus letting him eat minutes on the 4th line. 

We don't have anyone to bring in! That's the freaking point. Kulich is probably the only ready NHL player we could reasonably count on next season. But if we keep Greenway that means if Kulich stumbles or sucks, you just put Greenway back on the 3rd line because he's a 3rd line penalty killing forward. Or if someone gets injured, well at least we got Greenway kids to slide up that lineup.

There is no "bunch to keep" because they are all signed, why don't you understand that? There is no one to bring in that plays his game. Why don't you get that?

No we don't. That's the point, wtf are we going to do with another 3rd round pick and Team X's 7th best prospect who would be are 15th best prospect. 

[LGR4GM]

Just now, seer775 said:

Fair enough. There are better players to trade for. Boqvist is low hanging fruit. With a bit more ambition and a few more bullets in the magazine KA can try for someone better. 

A few more bullets? Are you mad? The dude has a .50 cal with a 100 round box mag. Sabres have 6 picks in 2024 including in rounds 1-4. They have 9 picks in 2025 including an extra 4th and 7th rounder. They have a prospect list that I will just rough out... Kulich, Savoie, Östlund, Wahlberg, Strbak, McCarthy, Neuchev, Novikov, Rosen, Kisakov, Lindgren, Komarov. What on earth does Adams need to get a top 4 defender he doesn't already have. In fact I would bet money that packaging Greenway and one of the mentioned players here would get you further than trading Greenway for a 3rd, 5th and a teams Wahlberg equivalent. 

[seer775]

10 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

We don't have anyone to bring in! That's the freaking point. Kulich is probably the only ready NHL player we could reasonably count on next season. But if we keep Greenway that means if Kulich stumbles or sucks, you just put Greenway back on the 3rd line because he's a 3rd line penalty killing forward. Or if someone gets injured, well at least we got Greenway kids to slide up that lineup.

There is no "bunch to keep" because they are all signed, why don't you understand that? There is no one to bring in that plays his game. Why don't you get that?

No we don't. That's the point, wtf are we going to do with another 3rd round pick and Team X's 7th best prospect who would be are 15th best prospect. 

There must be teams that are willing to spend on him to make a playoff run.

He is a big man who can play a little pk. The size can come from the new Defense which we are pretty much desperate for.

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

A few more bullets? Are you mad? The dude has a .50 cal with a 100 round box mag. Sabres have 6 picks in 2024 including in rounds 1-4. They have 9 picks in 2025 including an extra 4th and 7th rounder. They have a prospect list that I will just rough out... Kulich, Savoie, Östlund, Wahlberg, Strbak, McCarthy, Neuchev, Novikov, Rosen, Kisakov, Lindgren, Komarov. What on earth does Adams need to get a top 4 defender he doesn't already have. In fact I would bet money that packaging Greenway and one of the mentioned players here would get you further than trading Greenway for a 3rd, 5th and a teams Wahlberg equivalent. 

Okay, if that's the case, go for it.

The point of moving Greenway is to get value back on him before he leaves, and use that to improving the defense. How you might go about doing that is subjective.

Edited January 9 by seer775

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, seer775 said:

There must be teams that are willing to spend on him to make a playoff run.

He is a big man who can play a little pk. The size can come from the new Defense which we are pretty much desperate for.

Okay, if that's the case, go for it.

The point of moving Greenway is to get value back on him before he leaves, and use that to improving the defense. How you might go about doing that is subjective.

The point of keeping greenway is to win hockey games. 

[seer775]

6 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

The point of keeping greenway is to win hockey games. 

More so to protect the young guys.

I do like him as a player. He brings grit to our team (which we don't have) and he can become our pk specialist (which sucks bigtime).

Moving him requires that we get something very good back. The assumption is that the Canucks are willing to overpay us. If so, it makes sense because we get more value added. Plus, we might turn around and re-sign him once he's a UFA.

If we do move him, we will have to replace his grit and toughness, which we should already be looking into (bye KO, Girgs). Big strong, slow forwards are a dime a dozen in the UFA market, and we can find a few if we look hard enough.

It's purely a value move.

[JohnC]

16 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Wayne Gretzky got traded.  Everyone is available depending on price and situation, even players with NMC/NTCs.

Also given the performance of the Sabres, KA should be listening to any offer other teams want to make.  

I loved the Greenway acquisition.  He was acquired to improve the PK and make us tougher, but he is adding less on the scoresheet than hoped.  So he is worth keeping for two more years at $3 mill per year if he gives 4th line O production or could he be traded to improve the defense?  I certainly wouldn’t trade him for futures unless the futures are packaged to improve the D.  For example, Greenway is traded for a depth forward and 1st rd pick and the 1st is package with Joki to add a top 4 D.
 

 

Of course, KA is listening to offers, as are all GMs. That's his job. I'm sure you will agree that it is unlikely that Greenway would be moved this season. Your preferred transaction of acquiring a top 4D defenseman will be difficult to work out for cap reasons. Paying a 4D player with a commensurate contract would not make sense from a cap strategy standpoint. There are young players already on the roster who will need to be properly compensated when their first contract is up. It makes it even less sense if you consider that we already have Ryan Johnson in the system. To my pleasant surprise, after watching him play, it is reasonable to believe that he will be on the first or second pairing in the not too-distant future. My basic point is that from a cap standpoint, it would make more sense to use the cap money on a wider distribution basis. 

[Stanley Lombardi]

The Sabres need more Greenway, not less.

[Marvin]

Just now, seer775 said:

More so to protect the young guys.

I do like him as a player. He brings grit to our team (which we don't have) and he can become our pk specialist (which sucks bigtime).

Moving him requires that we get something very good back. The assumption is that the Canucks are willing to overpay us. If so, it makes sense because we get more value added. Plus, we might turn around and re-sign him once he's a UFA.

If we do move him, we will have to replace his grit and toughness, which we should already be looking into (bye KO, Girgs). Big strong, slow forwards are a dime a dozen in the UFA market, and we can find a few if we look hard enough.

It's purely a value move.

If Canucks fans are to be believed, they think that Vancouver won't overpay.  Their assumption is that Buffalo is looking for picks and projects.  No top 4 RHD, gritty forwards, or Thatcher Demko. Currently available players and prospects do not interest me one jot.

Just now, Stanley Lombardi said:

The Sabres need more Greenway, not less.

Welcome back!

[seer775]

11 minutes ago, Marvin said:

If Canucks fans are to be believed, they think that Vancouver won't overpay.  Their assumption is that Buffalo is looking for picks and projects.  No top 4 RHD, gritty forwards, or Thatcher Demko. Currently available players and prospects do not interest me one jot.

Welcome back!

If they don't overpay, don't sell. It won't be an NHL player because they're gunning for the playoffs and they need someone big before the deadline.

Let's say we get two decent picks from Greenway. Great. Sign one or two hulk UFAs on short term in the offseason (Martin, Lucic, Clutterbuck, Maroon, etc). Package the picks and a player/prospect for a one or two top 4 Dmen.

Profit.

Edited January 9 by seer775

[Marvin]

16 minutes ago, seer775 said:

If they don't overpay, don't sell. It won't be an NHL player because they're gunning for the playoffs and they need someone big before the deadline.

Let's say we get two decent picks from Greenway. Great. Sign one or two hulk UFAs on short term in the offseason (Martin, Lucic, Clutterbuck, Maroon, etc). Package the picks and a player/prospect for a one or two top 4 Dmen.

Profit.

What is your definition of "decent" picks?  I think that you are under-selling him for that price.

I would rather add more Greenway types than subtract them.  Indeed, I would be looking at nearly NHL-ready prospects who play a Greenway type game so that injuries don't hurt as much next season.  I am also loath to trade Greenway on one end and obtain a lesser player on the other end.

No one is selling a top 4 RHD for a player and prospect unless he is a UFA.  I don't think that is feasible.

[Mustache of God]

The Canucks are a very good hockey team this year, and it should say something about Greenway that they are targeting him to make a good team even better. The Sabres should absolutely not trade him to VAN unless the return is an absolute overpayment, which I would not expect to happen.

[seer775]

1 hour ago, Marvin said:

What is your definition of "decent" picks?  I think that you are under-selling him for that price.

I would rather add more Greenway types than subtract them.  Indeed, I would be looking at nearly NHL-ready prospects who play a Greenway type game so that injuries don't hurt as much next season.  I am also loath to trade Greenway on one end and obtain a lesser player on the other end.

No one is selling a top 4 RHD for a player and prospect unless he is a UFA.  I don't think that is feasible.

It'd have to be more than a 2nd and a 5th, because that's what we got him for. So maybe a 2nd and a 3rd, or two 2nds.

What're the odds we get that top 4 dman under RFA (replacing Joker) if we overpay just a little bit? That's the other key piece. How many picks and prospects would a Byram cost (or a Seider, Bouchard, Luke Hughes, Romanov, Hague, Miller, Drysdale)? A first, 2nd and a prospect is the max reasonable payout. Then, we have to sign a couple Fs for grit (for Greenway, KO/Girgs) (like Martin, Clutterbuck, Lucic, Maroon, etc) plus another solid D for EJ (maybe Clifton) UFA in the offseason.

If that isnt possible, keep Greenway and try your luck signing an F (mentioned) and one or two Dmen in the upcoming UFA market (Tanev, Hanifin, Barrie, OEL, Gostisbehere, Montour) or the next (Chycrun, Provorov, Schmidt, Theodore, Gavrikov, Pionk, Orlov, Ekblad).

Edited January 9 by seer775

[Pimlach]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Personally I don't think the Sabres top 9 is the issue. I think Tage, Cozens, and Mitts are a solid center spine. I think Tuch, Quinn, are a great rw. Skinner and JJP are good on the lw. Benson is only going to get better. Honestly, I really hope Kulich puts in the work because a line of Kulich - Mitts - Benson next year could be great but also I would rather we acquire another winger so I don't have to hope that 19yr old Benson and 20yr old Kulich are great. 

 

Our Top 9 is TNT, Skinner, Tuch, Cozens, JJP, Quinn, Mitts, Benson and Greenway.  

Greenway is the one to slide down to the 4th line, but still contribute a lot on PK and in checking line situations. That, and his rugged presence have a value that the other 8 do not bring.   He could make our 4th line better. 

I would trade Greenway if he helps bring in a proven top 4 defender, I am talking about a veteran and a tough physical player - we will need to replace that aspect of his game.  I could also include him in a package for a #1 goalie.  Once we trade Greenway we have his role to fill once again.  Fill one hole, make another - but you would think the Greenway hole is easier to fill if he is destined to be a 4th line guy.  

If the Greenway trade never happens I still look at adding a physical 2 way forward to the top 9, but the alternative is that one of our prospects develops.  Östlund and Savoie should play in the AHL next season, they are not close to the NHL yet.  Rosen or Kulich would have 2 years of AHL experience and a shot at the top 9, but I certainly would not give them anything.  Kulich is bigger and more of a sniper between the two, he might be a good Skinner replacement down the road.  

I think that two of these four prospects should be included in trades to improve the NHL roster.  

Assuming Adams wants to get good at some point, he has his #1 pick and several top prospects to leverage into legit NHL help right now.  

Edited January 9 by Pimlach

[Drag0nDan]

6 hours ago, inkman said:

But why create that loss, to acquire another type of player they have in droves.  We are going to see the Sabres push some good offensive players out of the way for better 200 ft players.  Already happened with Benson for Olofsson.  

I assume it has something to do with making dollars work.  

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Which of those 9 are you trading?

Skinner, a top goal scorer, has a complete NMC and a huge contract.

Tuch is an excellent all around player when healthy on a bargain contract with a M-NTC.  He is also the poster child for “wants to be here.”

TNT is the team’s top center, top goal scorer and on a reasonable to cheap contract.

Benson, Quinn and JJP are on their ELCs and are already among our better forwards at driving offense.  

So that leaves Cozens and Mitts. The Sabres lack centers. They don’t have any near ready in the A.  Would they ditch young DC one year into a lengthy extension?  Would they trade away Mitts, who is their best 2 way forward, most versatile forward and possibly their best playmaker? 

While I agree that something has to change, I think it’s much more likely change come from moving on from picks and prospects being moved for help.  

Do the Sabres lack centres relative to the other positions? Also Mitts isn’t a better playmaker than Dahlin but at F, sure 

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

If I were the Sabres GM, my off-season would look something like this.

I’d move on from KO, Z, VO and Jost upfront.  I’d move on from UPL, Joki, EJ and Clifton in goal and on defense.  Trading Clifton will be hard. 

Those moves create 3 starting roster spots  at forward, 3 on defense and one in goal. Ryan Johnson earns one of the 3 D openings.  

I’d give Krebs a cheap one year prove it deal and pencil him in as the 13th forward.  I’m also ok if he is traded.

I’m putting 2 of Kulich, Rosen, Savoie and Östlund in the trade market with our top pick in 2024.  shoring up the D is the top priority with at least one proven top 4 D.  I’m also looking to add a good center or two.  My dream scenario is to get a possible 3rd line center to allow Mitts to move back to wing.  

 

 

You have my sword 

[SABRES 0311]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Skinner has a full NTC so he isn't going anywhere. Which of Tage, Tuch, Cozens, JJP, Quinn, Mitts, and Benson are you willing to trade for defensive help? 

Depends on who brings the best return, at that specific time, with the least negative impact offensively.

[SABRES 0311]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Skinner has a full NTC so he isn't going anywhere. Which of Tage, Tuch, Cozens, JJP, Quinn, Mitts, and Benson are you willing to trade for defensive help? 

 

4 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

Which of those 9 are you trading?

Skinner, a top goal scorer, has a complete NMC and a huge contract.

Tuch is an excellent all around player when healthy on a bargain contract with a M-NTC.  He is also the poster child for “wants to be here.”

TNT is the team’s top center, top goal scorer and on a reasonable to cheap contract.

Benson, Quinn and JJP are on their ELCs and are already among our better forwards at driving offense.  

So that leaves Cozens and Mitts. The Sabres lack centers. They don’t have any near ready in the A.  Would they ditch young DC one year into a lengthy extension?  Would they trade away Mitts, who is their best 2 way forward, most versatile forward and possibly their best playmaker? 

While I agree that something has to change, I think it’s much more likely change come from moving on from picks and prospects being moved for help.  

 

12 minutes ago, SABRES 0311 said:

Depends on who brings the best return, at that specific time, with the least negative impact offensively.

If you want something of value from another team you need to give them something of value. What Sabres asset that is not in the top nine or named Dahlin would fetch a return the team needs?

Thats assuming you agree the team needs help in goaltending and defense beyond a tweener backup and third pairing guy. 

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Omg, this is annoying. Stop for a second. 

Jordan Greenway is only signed through next season at 3million dollars. After that his contract ends. Jack Quinn, JJP, Devon Levi, Ryan Johnson are all signed through next season as well so NO ONE gives a ***** about Greenway's 3 million bucks because it literally has no impact on any of those listed players. Krebs is going to get his qualifying offer and that's probably about it for his raise. Mitts can probably ask for 8mil if he wants but again, that fits under the cap easy and has no impact on keeping jordan greenway next year or signing any of the other listed players after next year. Stop spouting nonsense about having to pay players that are not up for new deals so we have to trade away Jordan Greenway. https://www.capfriendly.com/teams/sabres

If this ***** team is still rebuilding next year, I hope Adams and the lot of them are shipped to Siberia with Terry Pegula leading the way. 

IF they are sticking with this roster BUT if they have actual free agency plans for next year to take a great leap forward rather than rebuild/build then the 3 million for a bottom end guy matters. 

Pesce, Hanifin, etc. it's a long list. 

I do not think the Sabres will go this route and don't think we will add high profile free agents but you never know, they might think the team is ready for a leap. 

[GASabresIUFAN]

58 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Do the Sabres lack centres relative to the other positions? Also Mitts isn’t a better playmaker than Dahlin but at F, sure 

 I think they do.  We do have prospects like Kulich, Rosen and Savoie who are listed as C/W, but I think both project as wingers in the NHL.  The only good prospects that project as NHL centers are Östlund and Wahlberg and both at probably a few years away.  Krebs is a bust and DG has been pretty clear that he also prefers Mitts on the wing.  That leaves us with just 2 centers in TNT and DC.  If I we KA, one goal with the forward group is to find two centers; one for the 3rd line and one for the 4th.  I'd shift Mitts to wing and Krebs (if re-signed) to the 13th forward slot. 

This would give us incredible depth down the middle and force the prospect to earn an NHL wing slot.  If we had injuries down the middle, like this season, Mitts and/or Krebs could slot in as needed.   

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, seer775 said:

If they don't overpay, don't sell. It won't be an NHL player because they're gunning for the playoffs and they need someone big before the deadline.

Let's say we get two decent picks from Greenway. Great. Sign one or two hulk UFAs on short term in the offseason (Martin, Lucic, Clutterbuck, Maroon, etc). Package the picks and a player/prospect for a one or two top 4 Dmen.

Profit.

 

2 hours ago, seer775 said:

It'd have to be more than a 2nd and a 5th, because that's what we got him for. So maybe a 2nd and a 3rd, or two 2nds.

What're the odds we get that top 4 dman under RFA (replacing Joker) if we overpay just a little bit? That's the other key piece. How many picks and prospects would a Byram cost (or a Seider, Bouchard, Luke Hughes, Romanov, Hague, Miller, Drysdale)? A first, 2nd and a prospect is the max reasonable payout. Then, we have to sign a couple Fs for grit (for Greenway, KO/Girgs) (like Martin, Clutterbuck, Lucic, Maroon, etc) plus another solid D for EJ (maybe Clifton) UFA in the offseason.

If that isnt possible, keep Greenway and try your luck signing an F (mentioned) and one or two Dmen in the upcoming UFA market (Tanev, Hanifin, Barrie, OEL, Gostisbehere, Montour) or the next (Chycrun, Provorov, Schmidt, Theodore, Gavrikov, Pionk, Orlov, Ekblad).

Why should a team with every single guy in their top 9 under 26 accept Skinner want more picks when they still have Kulich, Östlund, Savoie, and Rose, Wahlberg, Strbak, Novikov, etc... in their prospect pool, why? What in hell does ditching Greenway so we have a 2nd and a 3rd do for us? Don't say for a trade because I can use Buffalo's 2nd and 3rd round pick in 2024 right now for that without doing anything. You can literally package those picks already because we have them with Greenway for example for someone of value. 

Also for the love of zeus's caboose, next time you mention trading for Moritz Seider I am going to call for you to be banned, Connor McDavid is more likely to be traded than Seider. Im sorry do I see Luke Hughes now as well? Holy crap man this isn't even borderline realistic. You wanna know what a Seider trade looks like... Owen Power, Jiri Kulich, One of (Peterka/Quinn/Cozens/Benson) and a 2nd (because Yzerman loves that kid and it is their #1 defender). Hard pass. You listing "A 1st, 2nd, and a prospect is the max reasonable payout." is insane. Wookie wouldn't even suggest that for Seider, Hughes, or Bouchard. I get these are just names you are tossing out but find realistic ones. Corson Ceulemans is a realistic RFA guy you could trade a 2nd and prospect for, not Mortiz Seider. Yzerman would crawl over broken glass while on fire to keep Seider on his team. 

1 hour ago, Thorny said:

You have my sword 

Not your bow? What about your ax?