New Jersey last year...Vancouver this year...Sabres when??

[matter2003]

Last year new Jersey went from being one of the worst teams in the NHL to being one of the best. This year, Vancouver who was terrible last year and like 30 points beneath the Sabres is doing the same thing in the Western Conference as they are now on top of the conference with 51 points(tied with Colorado but have played 1 less game). They also seem to have no issues defending while generating offense as they lead the NHL in goals with 142 and also lead in goal differential at +46, 13 goals better than the 2nd place Kings in that department. 

Literally when does the BS with this team end? Year after year teams pass us on their rebuilds and go from terrible to really good and yet the Sabres make a smaller jump and now fade back again.  Toronto passed us long ago in their rebuild and have maintained it. Even Philadelphia is showing signs of being decent now.  But the Sabres once again can't get it together and are near the bottom of the league again. Vancouver seems to have no issues with it's young players defending well while still generating offense, but the Sabres can't seem to figure it out.

So tiring to watch team after team after team start rebuilds and pass us in 1/4 of the time it's taken us to even get decent and then end up falling off again. It's inexcusable. It's inept. It's time for something to change. How is this acceptable?  How is Adams looking around watching these other teams continuously go from worst to first and sitting there thinking they need more "time"?

 

You've had 12 years. Get it together NOW or get gone.

Edited January 4 by matter2003

[Warriorspikes51]

It's truly sad that at this point a portion of the fans wouldn't even care if the team moved.  That's how bad this mess is 

[PASabreFan]

Didn't you hear DG on GR? The bottom teams are rising, the perennial powers are falling. Everyone is meeting in the middle, where it's a street fight for the presidency of the Eastern Conference. It's tight!

The Sabres are on the sidewalk holding up their phones.

[Wyldnwoody44]

5 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Didn't you hear DG on GR? The bottom teams are rising, the perennial powers are falling. Everyone is meeting in the middle, where it's a street fight for the presidency of the Eastern Conference. It's tight!

The Sabres are on the sidewalk holding up their phones.

DG has reached *almost* Krueger levels to me. 

His recent lack of answers and bumbling is par for the course for Sabres management. 

 

Produce on the ice, I don't care what crap you say anymore. Good coaches get results. 

 

[mjd1001]

Since the drought....

Lindy Ruff, hugely successful, former coach of the year winner, wins with different styles with different players.  let go because 'it was time for a change'.

Ron Rolston, unproven probably in over his head, but give someone different a shot.

Ted Nolan.  Another former 'coach of the year' winner. Work hard, honest, players give 100% under him, assistants can take care of the x's and o's but he'll get the most out of guys. Hard nosed hockey.

Bylsma.  Cup winner, Proven, experienced. Knows how to work with star players.

Housley. The up-and-comer, thought highly as a good future coach around the league. Former player who knows 'how things work'.

Krueger. The ultimate outsider. He will bring a style of coaching unlike anyone else in the NHL.

Granato. Development guy.  Experience in the NHL, Minors, under 18's. Assistant coaching, development coaching, head coaching at ever level.

This team has tried many coaches. They have tried many styles of coaching. Different ages. Different backgrounds.  All experience levels. Known guys with experience. Relative unknowns.  Yet none have worked.  Sure we can change the coach again, but unless/until SOMETHING changes at the top and works down...are we really going to get different results? I don't think so.  Is it really the coach? The style of coach? or is there something else 'rotten' in the organization the last decade plus?

The Sabres are like an ocean liner that has structural problems and has for the past decade.  Keeping on changing the captian of the ship might not be the thing that prevents it from sinking.

 

At this point, change the head coach if you want. But I'd rather see even more money put into development. I'd rather the head coach and GM be given an open checkbook to OVERPAY if needed to get the best assistents money can buy here.  I don't know much about Seth Appert, but give him assistents down there (or replace him if needed) to get the best development guys down there.  I like Granato, I do not want him gone, but if you think the whole team/organization is so poisened that you need to start over then do it....but if you do bring in a new coach, make sure he has 100%, total autonomy to clean out the current coaching staff and organizational staff and bring in EVERYONE that he wants that fits is vision and give him free reign to spend the money to hire whoever he wants to do that.

 

Edited January 4 by mjd1001

[Marvin]

When the Moon is in the 7th house, and Jupiter aligns with Mars.  Then Venus will guard the planets 

[mjd1001]

44 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

Last year new Jersey went from being one of the worst teams in the NHL to being one of the best. This year, Vancouver who was terrible last year and like 30 points beneath the Sabres is doing the same thing in the Western Conference as they are now on top of the conference with 51 points(tied with Colorado but have played 1 less game). They also seem to have no issues defending while generating offense as they lead the NHL in goals with 142 and also lead in goal differential at +46, 13 goals better than the 2nd place Kings in that department. 

 

Just a thought that doesn't explain it all..but.....

Vancouver has a more mature, veteran defense group. Most/all of their guys are in their mid 20's to early 30s'

New Jersey....they were better last year than this year...and either through roster changes or injury, they had a more veteran D-corp last year (when they were better) than they do this year.

Talent is a big issue, and their are exceptions....but I think an underated aspect of how good a team is, is how many guys you have as defensemen that get meaningful minutes that have SOME talent (not the most, but some) but have a LOT of NHL experience.  In the past, I have underrated and overrated how well I think teams around the league will do, and more often than not, the teams that I underrated did better than I thought and they had some relative unknowns playing defense but they were older and had experience.  And the teams I thought would do better than they did, they had really young overall (top to bottom) defensemen.

Dahlin, Power, Bryson (in the past), Samuelsson...those are they guys that have gotten big time minutes for the Sabres.  They have talent, they might be good and could be great in the future, but they simply do not have the hundreds and hundreds of games of experience seeing everything and knowing where to be to cover up for mistakes the forwards make.  You get that when you have been in those positions so many times that it becomes automatic, no thinking involved. The guys the Sabres give big minutes to, they have talent, but they simply are not good enough to cover up for the awful play by the forward in their own zone that more expereinced guys do.

86% of all minutes played by defensemen on this team this year have been logged by players under 25 years of age.  48% of minutes have been logged by defensement that have played less than 2 full seasons (under 150 games) in the NHL for their career.

What fixes that?  Patience (ducking as the rest of the forum throws rotten eggs and tomatoes at me for using that word)

Edited January 4 by mjd1001

[SabreFinn]

Next year will be the year!

[matter2003]

8 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Just a thought that doesn't explain it all..but.....

Vancouver has a more mature, veteran defense group. Most/all of their guys are in their mid 20's to early 30s'

New Jersey....they were better last year than this year...and either through roster changes or injury, they had a more veteran D-corp last year (when they were better) than they do this year.

Talent is a big issue, and their are exceptions....but I think an underated aspect of how good a team is, is how many guys you have as defensemen that get meaningful minutes that have SOME talent (not the most, but some) but have a LOT of NHL experience.  In the past, I have underrated and overrated how well I think teams around the league will do, and more often than not, the teams that I underrated did better than I thought and they had some relative unknowns playing defense but they were older and had experience.  And the teams I thought would do better than they did, they had really young overall (top to bottom) defensemen.

Dahlin, Power, Bryson (in the past), Samuelsson...those are they guys that have gotten big time minutes for the Sabres.  They have talent, they might be good and could be great in the future, but they simply do not have the hundreds and hundreds of games of experience seeing everything and knowing where to be to cover up for mistakes the forwards make.  You get that when you have been in those positions so many times that it becomes automatic, no thinking involved. The guys the Sabres give big minutes to, they have talent, but they simply are not good enough to cover up for the awful play by the forward in their own zone that more expereinced guys do.

What fixes that?  Patience (ducking as the rest of the forum throws rotten eggs and tomatoes at me for using that word)

 

Cool...be patient for another 5 years while another 10 teams pass us including those that start a rebuild next year or the year after and slingshot right past us as we stay spinning our wheels.

Edited January 4 by matter2003

[mjd1001]

3 minutes ago, matter2003 said:

 

Cool...be patient for another 5 years while another 10 teams pass us including those that start a rebuild next year or the year after and slingshot right past us as we stay spinning our wheels.

If you want your top 3-4 guys to be Dahlin, Samuelsson, Power, and have Johnson (young Johnson)...and for them to get the most ice time then yes.  Your other alternative is to get rid of one of them...or push them down the depth chart, and bring in a Vet.  I don't mean a really old guy like 'old' Johnson, or another teams 6th/7th guy like Clifton, but to go out and get a legit, 1st or 2nd pair guy who is in his mid to late 20's to replace one of those current 4 guys I listed above.

I wouldn't be opposed to that...taking 1-2 minutes off of Dahlin's plate each night....taking 5 minutes from Samuelson and Power each night (maybe having them be on the 3rd pair some nights) to make room for that vet....but when the Sabres do that (or when they can find a guy like that who wants to come here), I'll beleive it.

Edited January 4 by mjd1001

[GoPuckYourself]

17 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

Just a thought that doesn't explain it all..but.....

Vancouver has a more mature, veteran defense group. Most/all of their guys are in their mid 20's to early 30s'

New Jersey....they were better last year than this year...and either through roster changes or injury, they had a more veteran D-corp last year (when they were better) than they do this year.

Talent is a big issue, and their are exceptions....but I think an underated aspect of how good a team is, is how many guys you have as defensemen that get meaningful minutes that have SOME talent (not the most, but some) but have a LOT of NHL experience.  In the past, I have underrated and overrated how well I think teams around the league will do, and more often than not, the teams that I underrated did better than I thought and they had some relative unknowns playing defense but they were older and had experience.  And the teams I thought would do better than they did, they had really young overall (top to bottom) defensemen.

Dahlin, Power, Bryson (in the past), Samuelsson...those are they guys that have gotten big time minutes for the Sabres.  They have talent, they might be good and could be great in the future, but they simply do not have the hundreds and hundreds of games of experience seeing everything and knowing where to be to cover up for mistakes the forwards make.  You get that when you have been in those positions so many times that it becomes automatic, no thinking involved. The guys the Sabres give big minutes to, they have talent, but they simply are not good enough to cover up for the awful play by the forward in their own zone that more expereinced guys do.

What fixes that?  Patience (ducking as the rest of the forum throws rotten eggs and tomatoes at me for using that word)

No tomatoes being thrown lol but what about trading for said older talented veteran defensemen? We could have went after 1 last season at the deadline to pair with our prospects/young players. Nobody is going to wait around in a production based business, Adams should have 100% already have made a move because this group isn’t cutting it and there will be 0 fans in the stands soon.
 

Also the product on the ice to me isn’t just poor defense (although it’s a big part) but to me they often look lazy, nobody gets in front of the net, nobody wants to work along the boards and to me that’s poor coaching imo, so why let bad habits continue?

Edited January 4 by GoPuckYourself

[mjd1001]

6 minutes ago, GoPuckYourself said:

No tomatoes being thrown lol but what about trading for said older talented veteran defensemen? We could have went after 1 last season at the deadline to pair with our prospects/young players. Nobody is going to wait around in a production based business, Adams should have 100% already have made a move because this group isn’t cutting it and there will be 0 fans in the stands soon. Also the product on the ice to me isn’t just poor defense (although it’s a big part) but to me they often look lazy, nobody gets in front of the net, nobody wants to work along the boards and to me that’s poor coaching imo, so why let bad habits continue?

Part of the reason I peronally am not all 100% for a coaching change is 1.) I like Granato  and 2.) I think there are SO many underlying issues that, if they aren't fixed almost ANY coach you bring in is also going to fail.  Before you make a head coaching change...or WHEN you make the change, at the same time you have to bring in some legitimate top-tier assistants and development coaches (not former Sabres players on their first NHL job). Overpay, give them double the salary if you need to, its the penance you must pay for the mistakes you made in the past.  Make a comittment to bringing in a legit, veteran, top 4 NHL D-man.  Make a commitment to bring in (again, overpay if you must in terms of salary and prospects) to bring in a legit 2nd or 3rd line forward who is GREAT at playing in his own end and won't put up with his linemates not doing that.

I do NOT want Granato fired unless those things are done at the SAME time.  Fire Granato and not fix the other issues...again...you are likely setting up that coach to fail (no matter how good he may be) and wasting 2-3 years  likely end up in the same place with him.

And on a slightly different point.  If you want to bring in a legit coach...a guy who is going to be really really good....do you think any coach like that will even consider coming here if they underlying staff isn't good? If they know the development staff/assistant staff/minor league staff is set up with inexperienced guys who either suck at their job or are only using the Sabres as a stepping stone to a better job?  If they know they have a GM and owner who are going to want every decision to not only be approved by them, but want input into them, sometimes possibly setting price caps?

Edited January 4 by mjd1001

[PerreaultForever]

You forgot Philly. Nobody saw that coming. I'm still waiting for them to fall apart (and they might) but they were expected to be bottom 5 for sure. 

Montreal also annoys me. They are supposed to be bottomed out early rebuild as well. If they stay ahead of us it's a colossal failure for this team. 

Ottawa beating us was very annoying since they, at least, are also a faltering rebuild.

If I had to bet on next year, unless they make changes here, I think Columbus might just leap past us and others as there is a lot of young talent on that roster and if they get it together they could have a New Jersey type rise. Can we? Sure, but not unless they make the needed changes. 

[Mango]

I think Terry sells the team and tells everybody that it’s because he needs to pay for the increased cost for the new stadium and two major franchises keeps him away from Kim far too long.

That will all be true.

But he’ll leave out a very measurable part that is he sold because he was really bad at his job. 

Everybody in Buffalo will accept this answer because Josh Allen. 

[Pimlach]

7 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Since the drought....

Lindy Ruff, hugely successful, former coach of the year winner, wins with different styles with different players.  let go because 'it was time for a change'.

Ron Rolston, unproven probably in over his head, but give someone different a shot.

Ted Nolan.  Another former 'coach of the year' winner. Work hard, honest, players give 100% under him, assistants can take care of the x's and o's but he'll get the most out of guys. Hard nosed hockey.

Bylsma.  Cup winner, Proven, experienced. Knows how to work with star players.

Housley. The up-and-comer, thought highly as a good future coach around the league. Former player who knows 'how things work'.

Krueger. The ultimate outsider. He will bring a style of coaching unlike anyone else in the NHL.

Granato. Development guy.  Experience in the NHL, Minors, under 18's. Assistant coaching, development coaching, head coaching at ever level.

This team has tried many coaches. They have tried many styles of coaching. Different ages. Different backgrounds.  All experience levels. Known guys with experience. Relative unknowns.  Yet none have worked.  Sure we can change the coach again, but unless/until SOMETHING changes at the top and works down...are we really going to get different results? I don't think so.  Is it really the coach? The style of coach? or is there something else 'rotten' in the organization the last decade plus?

The Sabres are like an ocean liner that has structural problems and has for the past decade.  Keeping on changing the captian of the ship might not be the thing that prevents it from sinking.

 

At this point, change the head coach if you want. But I'd rather see even more money put into development. I'd rather the head coach and GM be given an open checkbook to OVERPAY if needed to get the best assistents money can buy here.  I don't know much about Seth Appert, but give him assistents down there (or replace him if needed) to get the best development guys down there.  I like Granato, I do not want him gone, but if you think the whole team/organization is so poisened that you need to start over then do it....but if you do bring in a new coach, make sure he has 100%, total autonomy to clean out the current coaching staff and organizational staff and bring in EVERYONE that he wants that fits is vision and give him free reign to spend the money to hire whoever he wants to do that.

 

Pegula inherited Ruff.  Ruff was the first to go, he should have got to know him better, he should have been the last.   

The two "not new to the NHL coaches" are Nolan and Bylsma. 

Nolan was out of NHL hockey for a long time.  Not a marque pick made at the genesis of the tank.  The found a desperate to get back candidate that was known.  

After the Sabres, Bylsma has never got back as a HC job in the NHL.  He is an outlier that was handed a SC capable team, and he did the job that year and they won the Cup.  After that not much.  I was puzzled by his failure, he had some good young players. 

The tendency is to hire new, unproven, damaged, resurrected, available at the time and we now him, kind of coaches ....

How about a relevant and recent winning NHL coach?  There are several out there right now.  

 

Edited January 4 by Pimlach

[Sabre The Cup]

This is all true. 
 

But I think the end goal is for Pegula to move the team somewhere else. 
 

Destroy the fanbase and make more money in a bigger city. At one point the goal may have been to keep it in Buffalo, but I think the team is gone in a few years. That’s why we have this weird holding pattern and cut costs. 

[inkman]

8 hours ago, matter2003 said:

Last year new Jersey went from being one of the worst teams in the NHL to being one of the best. This year, Vancouver who was terrible last year and like 30 points beneath the Sabres is doing the same thing in the Western Conference as they are now on top of the conference with 51 points(tied with Colorado but have played 1 less game). They also seem to have no issues defending while generating offense as they lead the NHL in goals with 142 and also lead in goal differential at +46, 13 goals better than the 2nd place Kings in that department. 

Literally when does the BS with this team end? Year after year teams pass us on their rebuilds and go from terrible to really good and yet the Sabres make a smaller jump and now fade back again.  Toronto passed us long ago in their rebuild and have maintained it. Even Philadelphia is showing signs of being decent now.  But the Sabres once again can't get it together and are near the bottom of the league again. Vancouver seems to have no issues with it's young players defending well while still generating offense, but the Sabres can't seem to figure it out.

So tiring to watch team after team after team start rebuilds and pass us in 1/4 of the time it's taken us to even get decent and then end up falling off again. It's inexcusable. It's inept. It's time for something to change. How is this acceptable?  How is Adams looking around watching these other teams continuously go from worst to first and sitting there thinking they need more "time"?

 

You've had 12 years. Get it together NOW or get gone.

I doubt they ever figure it out 

[Getpucksdeep]

19 minutes ago, Sabre The Cup said:

This is all true. 
 

But I think the end goal is for Pegula to move the team somewhere else. 
 

Destroy the fanbase and make more money in a bigger city. At one point the goal may have been to keep it in Buffalo, but I think the team is gone in a few years. That’s why we have this weird holding pattern and cut costs. 

I think this actually couldn't be further from the truth. 

[seer775]

Being consistently good is better than being good once.

IMO, the Devils and the Canucks are not cup contenders. They have a few stars and a weak team. Same problem with the Leafs.

A growth mindset is key. Get a little better every season. 

^ to that point, we've regressed hard compared to last year. Something needs a serious fix before we think post-season.

KA needs to think like Stevie Y. That guy knows how to GM.

Edited January 5 by seer775

[Big Guava]

10 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

If you want your top 3-4 guys to be Dahlin, Samuelsson, Power, and have Johnson (young Johnson)...and for them to get the most ice time then yes.  Your other alternative is to get rid of one of them...or push them down the depth chart, and bring in a Vet.  I don't mean a really old guy like 'old' Johnson, or another teams 6th/7th guy like Clifton, but to go out and get a legit, 1st or 2nd pair guy who is in his mid to late 20's to replace one of those current 4 guys I listed above.

I wouldn't be opposed to that...taking 1-2 minutes off of Dahlin's plate each night....taking 5 minutes from Samuelson and Power each night (maybe having them be on the 3rd pair some nights) to make room for that vet....but when the Sabres do that (or when they can find a guy like that who wants to come here), I'll beleive it.

Well I dunno...Clifton seemed to be pretty valuable with the Bruins and was their on 2nd pair unit.

 

Hard to believe that he can be a top 4 D on the best team in NHL history but he could only be a 6/7 here or anywhere else.

[mjd1001]

36 minutes ago, Big Guava said:

Well I dunno...Clifton seemed to be pretty valuable with the Bruins and was their on 2nd pair unit.

 

Hard to believe that he can be a top 4 D on the best team in NHL history but he could only be a 6/7 here or anywhere else.

He wasn't always a top four with Boston.... That's just wrong. There were games where he was getting third pair minutes.

Also, not hard to believe at all.. absolutely not at all, that he could be better or look better playing behind one of the best forward groups in their own end.... As compared to historically, possibly one of the worst ever defending in their own end as forwards.

[Sabres Super Fan]

12 hours ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

It's truly sad that at this point a portion of the fans wouldn't even care if the team moved.  That's how bad this mess is 

You know what I have been a Buffalo Sabres fan since 1975. I am one of those Buffalo Sabres fan that feels that way now because Terry Pegula is a terrible hockey owner. And if New York State are going to give public money away to renovate Key Bank Center why not look for other owners that might be interested in getting that public money owning a team in Buffalo either in the NHL or NBA. New Orleans Pelicans and Minnesota Timberwolves might be enticed by free public money. Same with the Arizona Coyotes, Florida Panthers, Ottawa Senators and Calgary Flames in the NHL. The area is going to potentially give a terrible hockey owner public money for what? Terry Pegula is a terrible hockey owner he needs to be forced to sell the Buffalo Sabres or just don’t extend his Key Bank Center lease when it is up. Tell the NHL that Buffalo is willing to work with the NHL but not with Terry Pegula owning the Buffalo Sabres franchise. Embarrass Terry Pegula good among his NHL owners.

Enough is enough with Terry Pegula owner of the Buffalo Sabres he is cheap like Toronto Maple Leafs Harold Ballard who ironically also owned a CFL football franchise in the Hamilton Tiger Cats. And like Harold Ballard Terry Pegula has said some stupid off the cuff comments from the first day he introduced himself to the Buffalo News reporters and Buffalo Sabres fans. He made one stupid comment after the other that is why the Buffalo Bills and Buffalo Sabres are hiding Terry Pegula from much public speaking. I don’t think Terry Pegula has any interest anymore in going for a Stanley Cup for the Buffalo Sabres. Terry Pegula changed courses with the Buffalo Sabres when he bought the Buffalo Bills he has very little interest in the Buffalo Sabres anymore. Sell the Buffalo Sabres Terry Pegula in my opinion. Go Sabres! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[apuszczalowski]

On 1/4/2024 at 5:37 PM, Pimlach said:

Pegula inherited Ruff.  Ruff was the first to go, he should have got to know him better, he should have been the last.   

The two "not new to the NHL coaches" are Nolan and Bylsma. 

Nolan was out of NHL hockey for a long time.  Not a marque pick made at the genesis of the tank.  The found a desperate to get back candidate that was known.  

After the Sabres, Bylsma has never got back as a HC job in the NHL.  He is an outlier that was handed a SC capable team, and he did the job that year and they won the Cup.  After that not much.  I was puzzled by his failure, he had some good young players. 

The tendency is to hire new, unproven, damaged, resurrected, available at the time and we now him, kind of coaches ....

How about a relevant and recent winning NHL coach?  There are several out there right now.  

 

Nolan was pretty much brought in to appease the fan base by bringing back a fan favorite to try an make a rebuild/tank palitable to everyone.

Bylsma was highly overrated as he was given a cup team in Pittsburgh that was stacked and din't really need a good coach to get them a championship.

The rest have been inexperienced possible 'up & comers' who would come cheap trying to make their name as a head coach, or guys already familiar with the team and given a chance to show what they have as a head coach.

 

Some might not have been bad choices, if they weren't also using the same method of hiring the GM. If they want a rookie HC, they should have paired them with a more experienced GM, or a rookie GM with a more experience HC. Letting 2 inexperienced rookies run the team as HC & GM isn't usually a receipe for success

[bunomatic]

1 minute ago, apuszczalowski said:

Nolan was pretty much brought in to appease the fan base by bringing back a fan favorite to try an make a rebuild/tank palitable to everyone.

Bylsma was highly overrated as he was given a cup team in Pittsburgh that was stacked and din't really need a good coach to get them a championship.

The rest have been inexperienced possible 'up & comers' who would come cheap trying to make their name as a head coach, or guys already familiar with the team and given a chance to show what they have as a head coach.

 

Some might not have been bad choices, if they weren't also using the same method of hiring the GM. If they want a rookie HC, they should have paired them with a more experienced GM, or a rookie GM with a more experience HC. Letting 2 inexperienced rookies run the team as HC & GM isn't usually a receipe for success

There appears to be a level of arrogance to how TP runs this club. He makes decisions like he knows better than all the experienced guys working in this league. All he needs to do is watch the clubs that have consistant success year in and year out. He ignores all that and hires people with no experience. 

[PerreaultForever]

32 minutes ago, bunomatic said:

There appears to be a level of arrogance to how TP runs this club. He makes decisions like he knows better than all the experienced guys working in this league. All he needs to do is watch the clubs that have consistant success year in and year out. He ignores all that and hires people with no experience. 

I forget but when they hired Adams (or fired JBot) was there not some nonsense about Terry feeling he had gotten bad advice from the hockey people? Something like that but it seemed to speak to his arrogance that HE knows better and it's always someone else's fault.