The Sabres Should Go Back to Run And Gun

[Flashsabre]

The roster is built for it and it’s what brought them success last year. They can’t get out of the blocks trying to play a defensive style and it has neutered the offence. With Quinn back it gives them the right mix. It’s not perfect game style by any means but it is what works best for the roster as built.

ENTERTAIN US!!

[Big Guava]

30 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

The roster is built for it and it’s what brought them success last year. They can’t get out of the blocks trying to play a defensive style and it has neutered the offence. With Quinn back it gives them the right mix. It’s not perfect game style by any means but it is what works best for the roster as built.

ENTERTAIN US!!

That style would have made the playoffs if they simply wouldn't have sucked so bad on home ice. That should be an advantage not a hindrance.

[bunomatic]

Not sure Levy would hold up to the run and gun. A goalie like Hasek in his prime would have been most excellent with this current team. But Levy ?

[SwampD]

The best teams are run and gun,… and play defense.

Just play hard everywhere.

[Contempt]

9 minutes ago, Big Guava said:

That style would have made the playoffs if they simply wouldn't have sucked so bad on home ice. That should be an advantage not a hindrance.

Getting to the bottom of this is a key to a long term solution.  What are the guys doing at home that they aren't doing on the road? Why is it so different so much of the time?

Which players have huge differences between home and away this year? Not including tonight's numbers because the site hasn't updated yet.

Alex Tuch: Home: 10 games 1 goal, 4 assists, -9   Away: 16 games 8 goals, 7 assists, even

Tage Thompson: Home 13 games 2 goals, 4 assists, -10   Away: 11 games, 6 goals, 4 assists, +1

Owen Power: Home 15 games 0 goals, 5 assists, -7  Away: 18 games, 1 goal, 6 assists, +1

Zach Benson: Home 10 games 0 goals, 1 assist, -4  Away: 13 games, 4 goals, 6 assists, +2

Casey Mittelstadt: Home 15 games, 2 goals, 7 assists, even  Away: 18 games, 6 goals, 12 assists, +3

Everyone else is close in their home v. road production or worse on the road like Jost which makes sense as teams can actively matchup against him away from home.  I want to know why these guys have been so bad at home. Sure Benson and Power are young. Fine. Tuch, Thompson, and Mittelstadt aren't.

16 minutes ago, bunomatic said:

Not sure Levy would hold up to the run and gun. A goalie like Hasek in his prime would have been most excellent with this current team. But Levy ?

Which then would make it incumbent upon KA to acquire a better goaltender to backstop that type of group. We have asked for that move for at least 3 years now. It does not seem to be a priority for anyone but us.

[Big Guava]

6 minutes ago, SwampD said:

The best teams are run and gun,… and play defense.

Just play hard everywhere.

This team is clearly capable of that...too often they choose not to.

2 minutes ago, Contempt said:

Getting to the bottom of this is a key to a long term solution.  What are the guys doing at home that they aren't doing on the road? Why is it so different so much of the time?

Which players have huge differences between home and away this year? Not including tonight's numbers because the site hasn't updated yet.

Alex Tuch: Home: 10 games 1 goal, 4 assists, -9   Away: 16 games 8 goals, 7 assists, even

Tage Thompson: Home 13 games 2 goals, 4 assists, -10   Away: 11 games, 6 goals, 4 assists, +1

Owen Power: Home 15 games 0 goals, 5 assists, -7  Away: 18 games, 1 goal, 6 assists, +1

Zach Benson: Home 10 games 0 goals, 1 assist, -4  Away: 13 games, 4 goals, 6 assists, +2

Casey Mittelstadt: Home 15 games, 2 goals, 7 assists, even  Away: 18 games, 6 goals, 12 assists, +3

Everyone else is close in their home v. road production or worse on the road like Jost which makes sense as teams can actively matchup against him away from home.  I want to know why these guys have been so bad at home. Sure Benson and Power are young. Fine. Tuch, Thompson, and Mittelstadt aren't.

Which then would make it incumbent upon KA to acquire a better goaltender to backstop that type of group. We have asked for that move for at least 3 years now. It does not seem to be a priority for anyone but us.

Last year would be a better one to look at...they were elite on the road, this year they are kinda not great in either place.

[Contempt]

21 minutes ago, Big Guava said:

Last year would be a better one to look at...they were elite on the road, this year they are kinda not great in either place.

Last year is last year. I want to know who is underperforming at home now and why but since you asked.

Thompson was roughly the same home and away last year scoring. He was -8 at home and +4 on the road.

Tuch had a huge disparity last year also. 14 goals, 18 assists, -10 at home v. 22 goals, 25 assists, +24 away

Mittelstadt was basically the same home and away

Power was basically the same scoring but was -12 at home and +22 on the road

Benson was in Junior.

 

Now, Tuch was still nearly 1 ppg at home last year so it didn't stand out so much but that's a really huge difference, and he's doing it again. Also, his home/road metrics didn't start to flip until 2022-23. Before that he was a relatively normal player with pretty even splits or at least splits that made sense.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Contempt

[Billznut]

28 minutes ago, SwampD said:

The best teams are run and gun,… and play defense.

Just play hard everywhere.

Yep. This coaching staff has no answers on how to fix this. So now in desperation they are going to revert to, “well we are going back to playing run and gun like last year and figure out defense whenever”. I don’t doubt they may start winning more than they have been this season with this approach, but it still smacks of desperation and of a coaching staff that has no clue on how to properly coach this team. 

[Doohickie]

Well they had a pretty good start on run and gun tonight against the Leafs.  Keep it going.

[Contempt]

5 minutes ago, Billznut said:

Yep. This coaching staff has no answers on how to fix this. So now in desperation they are going to revert to, “well we are going back to playing run and gun like last year and figure out defense whenever”. I don’t doubt they may start winning more than they have been this season with this approach, but it still smacks of desperation and of a coaching staff that has no clue on how to properly coach this team. 

Properly coaching THIS team probably is letting them run and gun because they don't have the stones or the horses to play another way. It's what they are built to do. All skill, no grit, little commitment to defense. The hell with it, at least go try to score 6 every night and see who can hang with that.  Changing the makeup of the roster can't legitimately be done right now nor do i think it's something they want to do anyway.

The issue I have with this approach is they never addressed the goaltending to be able to pretend to be successful this way. Again, I don't think they see the need for this either. That is what is truly disturbing about KA. You want to build this kind of team, fine, go for it, but at least understand what you've built and get them what they need.  They can't/won't/aren't going to play shut down D in front of any goaltender. Go get a goaltender that can cope with that and still win. No there aren't many. Yes they are expensive. That is the price you pay for building a team this way.  You can't ask this roster to grind out games and play close checking hockey.  It's not going to happen.

[Flashsabre]

Hey, what do you know😀

Do it Donnie!

[Second Line Center]

This team is about to go on one of those 10 game unbeaten streaks.  
 

It feels like it - Quinn back.  Skinner Tuch and Thompson look healthy.  And Levi outside of Columbus (they all stunk) has been much better.  
 

It’s a flawed team.  I don’t like the captain situation and I think it’s not physical enough. 
 

But Okposo responded tonight and maybe the team has realized how serious the situation is with the “fire DG chants” they didn’t think we’re possible just 2 months ago.

 

Like a wake up call.  

[Billznut]

Many think this team will change and turn the corner and that theyve had their wake up call when they beat a good team. It happens every week or two around here. They played great tonight. But that all it was. Tonight.  One game. There is ZERO chance of this team having a 10 game unbeaten streak. I think there is zero chance of them having a five game unbeaten streak. Just too inconsistent for any kind of prolonged streak sadly. 

Edited December 22, 2023 by Billznut

[Weave]

6 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

Hey, what do you know😀

Do it Donnie!

I try (not always successful) to not read more into what is said by the coach and GM because so much of it is filtered.  But this bothers me.  It tells me that either 1. The team as built is fatally flawed to not be either able or willing to play a two way game, 2. Donnie can only get them to play hard by playing fun, or 3 Both.

This statement is the last straw for me.  If the problem is #1 we need a GM that can build a functional playoff team like NOW, and if its #2 I am firmly on board with the let’s hire a dinosaur coach NOW crowd.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Weave

[JoeSchmoe]

8 hours ago, bunomatic said:

Not sure Levy would hold up to the run and gun. A goalie like Hasek in his prime would have been most excellent with this current team. But Levy ?

[Archie Lee]

52 minutes ago, Weave said:

I try (not always successful) to not read more into what is said by the coach and GM because so much of it is filtered.  But this bothers me.  It tells me that either 1. The team as built is fatally flawed to not be either able or willing to play a two way game, 2. Donnie can only get them to play hard by playing fun, or 3 Both.

This statement is the last straw for me.  If the problem is #1 we need a GM that can build a functional playoff team like NOW, and if its #2 I am firmly on board with the let’s hire a dinosaur coach NOW crowd.

In what will almost certainly be our 13th consecutive year out of the playoffs, I won't make excuses for the team's record or performance or for management's failure to act. It is possible though that it just isn't realistic to expect this roster (the youngest in the league, with inconsistent goaltending), to play consistently good defence against NHL competition.  It might just be that the team is not yet ready and able to play that particular way night in and night out.  This perhaps supports your first point, that the roster as constructed is fatally flawed, but only if one views making the playoffs this season as a critical accomplishment (which most fans do, but which doesn't appear to be the case for the organization).

I come back to what I've stated earlier, the core of the team's spine (top four centres, top four D, two best goalies), went into the season with an average age of 22 (Thompson the oldest at 26).  We are 3-4 seasons away from that core being in the collective prime of their careers.  It is not shocking to me that we struggle to consistently play structurally sound defensive hockey.    

[SDS]

9 hours ago, bunomatic said:

Not sure Levy would hold up to the run and gun. A goalie like Hasek in his prime would have been most excellent with this current team. But Levy ?

Marv is like 100 years old. There’s no way he would hold up.

[Believer]

8 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

Hey, what do you know😀

Do it Donnie!

The players have chosen their game… Get on board for the ride!

[SwampD]

For being “run and gun” (not really sure it was) it sure looked a lot like they decided to play defense and actually cover guys 10 feet from the net.

[Pimlach]

7 hours ago, Second Line Center said:

This team is about to go on one of those 10 game unbeaten streaks.  
 

It feels like it - Quinn back.  Skinner Tuch and Thompson look healthy.  And Levi outside of Columbus (they all stunk) has been much better.  
 

It’s a flawed team.  I don’t like the captain situation and I think it’s not physical enough. 
 

But Okposo responded tonight and maybe the team has realized how serious the situation is with the “fire DG chants” they didn’t think we’re possible just 2 months ago.

 

Like a wake up call.  

The wake up call came from the fans.  Not the coaches, the GM, or the owner.  
 
The players listened for a game   

It probably will not stick unless the best players start consistently holding each other accountable.   It has to come from within.  

[That Aud Smell]

2 hours ago, Weave said:

I try (not always successful) to not read more into what is said by the coach and GM because so much of it is filtered.  But this bothers me.  It tells me that either 1. The team as built is fatally flawed to not be either able or willing to play a two way game, 2. Donnie can only get them to play hard by playing fun, or 3 Both.

This statement is the last straw for me.  If the problem is #1 we need a GM that can build a functional playoff team like NOW, and if its #2 I am firmly on board with the let’s hire a dinosaur coach NOW crowd.

I am with this 100%. I read this and my eyes rolled into the back of my head.

FFS.

Granato is on record saying that his master plan was to get this young core understanding how to score in this league -- "hard to do - best league in the world" he was heard to observe -- and that defensive responsibility and 200 foot concepts would be folded in from there.

Now he's backtracking. Ahhh, fuggit. Back to shinny.

I'm not sure what the problem is -- if it's a problem with the GM assembling a roster that can't play a substantially complete and winning brand of hockey (which firewagon hockey is not, afaik), or if it's a problem with the HC who can't get this group to play with more overall defensive responsibility without sacrificing their offensive identity.

Regardless of whose responsibility it is, at bottom, this sort of statement seems disqualifying of the HC. He's gotta go. "I said that what we did last year was a sign of growth, but would not be good enough going forward, that we would have to evolve. Now ... I think we're just gonna go back to what we did last year."

Edited December 22, 2023 by That Aud Smell

[bunomatic]

4 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

I am with this 100%. I read this and my eyes rolled into the back of my head.

FFS.

Granato is on record saying that his master plan was to get this young core understanding how to score in this league -- "hard to do - best league in the world" he was heard to observe -- and that defensive responsibility and 200 foot concepts would be folded in from there.

Now he's backtracking. Ahhh, fuggit. Back to shinny.

I'm not sure what the problem is -- if it's a problem with the GM assembling a roster that can't play a substantially complete and winning brand of hockey (which firewagon hockey is not, afaik), or if it's a problem with the HC who can't get this group to play with more overall defensive responsibility without sacrificing their offensive identity.

Regardless of whose responsibility it is, at bottom, this sort of statement seems disqualifying of the HC. He's gotta go. "I said that what we did last year was a sign of growth, but would not be good enough going forward, that we would have to evolve. Now ... I think we're just gonna go back to what we did last year."

Tail wagging the dog

[Taro T]

8 hours ago, Flashsabre said:

Hey, what do you know😀

Do it Donnie!

Will go back and relisten to what Granato actually said and not Koziol's interpretation of what he said, but IF this is an accurate representation of what was said, then these coaches have no friggin' clue what they're doing.  We were told for a year and a half that they'd be implementing the offensive portion of their system initially and would then work defensive responsibility in after that and then the team would be ready to take off.

This is going back to no defensive responsibility but with kids in the net backstopping it.  Know who else did that?  The Eulers.  No, not the good version of them from the mid-late 80's.  The version from the late 00's after Pronger bolted.  How'd that work out?

Really hoping that was misquoted or misinterpreted.  This team needs to play fast because except for a very few they don't play physical and because they have the skill to play fast.  But you can play fast and sound too.  It isn't a one or the other situation.  Am hoping that Granato was referring to playing with speed and aggression when saying they might go back to what they did last year and not that they'll just leave the goalies hung out to dry and hope to win a lot of 6-5 games.

[That Aud Smell]

20 minutes ago, bunomatic said:

Tail wagging the dog

21 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Will go back and relisten to what Granato actually said and not Koziol's interpretation of what he said

This is an important qualifier. I will try to do the same.

[Weave]

48 minutes ago, Believer said:

The players have chosen their game… Get on board for the ride!

That is my take.  The players are choosing the path.