Don Granato the Worm Tongue and the Culture of Losing

[Taro T]

Hopefully, one of the internal team goals this year is to never go 3 games without a point.  Seems like a small goal, and for this team it may not prove to be attainable.  But had they pulled that off last year, they would've at least been in 7th in the conference.

Do the little stuff right, and the big stuff will take care of itself.

Punting Olofsson into the sun is a starting point.  😉

[LTS]

4 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Well of course. Do you remember a playoff game that didn't feel like a must win? Even up 3-0, the very idea of losing Game 4 is terrifying.

I'm just looking for some obvious signs that the sea change we were expecting in Sabres hockey is taking place. Granato's comments are just more of the same.

I get it.  But even coaches who speak straightforward end up coaching losing teams and getting fired.  Pick ANY coach... take your favorite coach, the one you think would be the absolute right fit from your personal view, let them say what they want to the press to make you happy.  I guarantee they still end up fired, the team doesn't necessarily win either.

That said, we live in a world where every word spoken gets recorded and then analyzed over and over again. I think there's a large part of delivering a controlled message to avoid controversy.

In the end, kicking garbage cans doesn't always get results. It might... but just as often it does not.

[That Aud Smell]

4 hours ago, PASabreFan said:

Does DG really save it all for the lockerroom?

Is it as simple as wanting to see HC DG go ape sh1t on his players? On the refs? On anyone or anything?

Really missing Lindy, eh?

[That Aud Smell]

also shoutout grima (sp?) wormtongue.

[Thorny]

18 hours ago, That Aud Smell said:

also shoutout grima (sp?) wormtongue.

Brad Dourif lends such an exceptional, unheralded performance to that film 

Edited October 18, 2023 by Thorny

[PerreaultForever]

It's not about old school vs. new school. It's not about yelling vs. calm dialogue. These are strawman arguments and maybe even zombie lies. It's about winning and losing and losing, especially at home, should be considered as unacceptable. New era, old era, it's sports, and that is the bottom line. If you accept or excuse losing it becomes a way of life. 

[Shoot da Puck]

Ok ?

[bg17]

They played pretty well last night. Granato must have yelled at them leading up to it. At the very least he took a tone. Good work Coach. 

[ddaryl]

That's not, never was, never will be Grantato's M.O.  He will do it his way and will be the Sabres HC until his way starts regressing and shows no signs of being fixable

We ain't there yet.

[RochesterExpat]

16 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

It's not about old school vs. new school. It's not about yelling vs. calm dialogue. These are strawman arguments and maybe even zombie lies. It's about winning and losing and losing, especially at home, should be considered as unacceptable. New era, old era, it's sports, and that is the bottom line. If you accept or excuse losing it becomes a way of life. 

I agree that losing at home is unacceptable from the culture perspective. Obviously this is just conjecture, but I suspect DG prefers the 'disappointed dad' route for sending a message to the team as opposed to Torts' style of just unloading at anyone and everyone. They can both be effective if they fit the personality and culture of the team as well as the coach. It would be hard to take DG seriously if he suddenly showed up one day screaming at players. It's not his style.

Of course, if that's how he's managing the locker room, I'm disappointed that he's not making comments to that effect publicly and I think that's probably what you're saying here. He should present the same message to the media that he does in the locker room (worded differently but the core is the same). The game should have been won and he is disappointed in players not meeting expectations. You don't necessarily need to publicly admonish someone in order to indicate they didn't reach expectations. In the past, he's made comments to that effect (VO at the end of last season), but he is generally too reserved--at least in my opinion--on public comments, and I believe he's probably that way in the locker room as well.

[dudacek]

Is this what our team needs? When? How often?

"I can't even pick one guy who played well other than Demko. He was unreal. He was great tonight and the rest of the guys weren't."

"We were just off all over. We were off every single system part of it. And then the compete wasn't there. They competed, we didn't it. Bottom line. You guys saw it. I don't really have anything to say. No compete. And then we tried in spurts, but it's not good enough."

"We just got some guys -- whew -- they better pick it up. I don't like to use the word soft, but I didn't see guys competing. At all. And that's alarming. But saying that, you win two games, let's not get too high. Same thing. Obviously, bad effort. Let's not get too low. But we have to go back to the drawing board with some guys here. They've got to pick it up. We can't be throwing goose eggs again."

"Times when we should shoot the puck and had a guy in front, we pass it. When it was time to pass it to the flank, we shot it and it was blocked. It's a good lesson for us. It's a good lesson. Who are we to think we're anybody?"

(Rick Tocchet after the Canucks lost 2-0 to Philly, after beating Edmonton handily in their opener and luckily in their 2nd game.

Edited October 18, 2023 by dudacek

[Pimlach]

On 10/17/2023 at 10:26 AM, SDS said:

It’s a generational thing.  They grew up on Vince Lombardi, Bobby Knight and spit yellers who were striking fear in players who had to work part time jobs in the summer to make ends meet. 

It only is if you want to stereotype an entire generation.  

I am a boomer that grew up with Lombardi, Knight, etc.  I idolized players that sold cars and fast food in the off season.  I remember that.  

 When I was in my early fifties I was an executive reporting  directly to a certain VP.  The VP was a younger Gen X.    He yelled and screamed, he blamed others publicly, said outlandish things to customers and suppliers, and he intimidated people.  He saluted his boss and everyone above him and he $hit on his direct reports.   I could not take his $hit or stand the way he treated good people.   I had no choice but to quit him. I moved on and left him and the project.  My leaving raised eyebrows and eventually exposed him for the fraud he is.   
 

On 10/17/2023 at 10:17 AM, dudacek said:

I'm curious how many people respond best in their own lives when a boss loses his ***** on them. Honest question.

Personally, I don't. I go through the wall for the guy who has my back.

The guys who need repeated ass-kickings to achieve good results are generally the guys i don't want on my team.

Me too.  

Edited October 18, 2023 by Pimlach

[Zamboni]

Yeah it’s very strange to think that… Yelling and screaming at your players is the only way. The only effective way… To get the results that the coach wants. that way of thinking couldn’t be more wrong. Same goes for an employer and employee relationship. 

[PASabreFan]

2 minutes ago, Zamboni said:

Yeah it’s very strange to think that… Yelling and screaming at your players is the only way. The only effective way… To get the results that the coach wants. that way of thinking couldn’t be more wrong. Same goes for an employer and employee relationship. 

Speaking for myself, I never said it was the only way.

[dudacek]

15 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Speaking for myself, I never said it was the only way.

Where do the Tocchet quotes fit?

[French Collection]

11 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Where do the Tocchet quotes fit?

I don’t mind it but I grew up in the kicked garbage can era. He didn’t point anybody out, throwing a blanket over the whole team as being lousy. 
Using the word compete seems like a common term. Sounds like he has a few VOs who might need to sit.

In private he will probably tell each guy what he needs to do better next game but he didn’t throw any individuals under the bus.

The Canucks are 2-1, he doesn’t want to go backwards.

My impression is that Tocchet struggles with finding positive in every situation and he is not there to coddle the younger players. I may be way off but he strikes me as being more of a Torts than a DG.

[PASabreFan]

18 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Where do the Tocchet quotes fit?

You can't be tone deaf with the fans. It's good for fans to hear a coach talk like that. Maybe the players know it's a dog and pony show. Sabres fans continue to suffer. Don's demeanor in the face of disappointment is offputting to me. I don't need to be bucked up. Maybe the players do.

[dudacek]

Based on the Canucks situation, both big picture and how they were trending, I’m good with what Tocchet said.

I kinda feel the same way about Granato too based on where the Sabres were.

Each of them has to read the team and determine what’s needed in the moment to bring out the best in them.

I think it’s fair to wonder whether Donnie has it in him to say what Tocchet said when it’s warranted. It’s something that warrants watching in this “about winning” season.

[LTS]

17 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

It's not about old school vs. new school. It's not about yelling vs. calm dialogue. These are strawman arguments and maybe even zombie lies. It's about winning and losing and losing, especially at home, should be considered as unacceptable. New era, old era, it's sports, and that is the bottom line. If you accept or excuse losing it becomes a way of life. 

I am curious what you want Granato to do.  The insinuation seems to be that because he does not say the things you want him to say that he accepts losing.  I think Granato accepts that losing happens.  I think Granato's approach is just different.  I don't think anyone shows up at the rink and says "Hey, it's okay if we lose today, it's not that important."

Granato's approach is to help them understand where mistakes are being made and to improve so that they improve their chance of winning. This is as opposed to the types of coaches who go out and say "We need to play harder."  Okay... but playing harder doesn't necessarily fix the problems.

It's like the Little League coach who yells at his outfielder "You gotta catch the ball Jonny".  Jonny's all like "No ***** coach, I don't drop them on purpose."

That's not coaching.. that's just yelling at players.  That job belongs to the fans and the media.

[Night Train]

9 minutes ago, LTS said:

That's not coaching.. that's just yelling at players.  That job belongs to the fans and the media.

We're doing our part here in spectacular fashion, with little to no knowledge.

 

[zow2]

Donny has to get these guys pushing the action like they did last season.  Now we have a real goalie, don't be scared to keep trying to score goals.  They packed it in and got too defensive last night.  

[Sabres Fan in NS]

41 minutes ago, French Collection said:

I don’t mind it but I grew up in the kicked garbage can era. He didn’t point anybody out, throwing a blanket over the whole team as being lousy. 
Using the word compete seems like a common term. Sounds like he has a few VOs who might need to sit.

In private he will probably tell each guy what he needs to do better next game but he didn’t throw any individuals under the bus.

The Canucks are 2-1, he doesn’t want to go backwards.

My impression is that Tocchet struggles with finding positive in every situation and he is not there to coddle the younger players. I may be way off but he strikes me as being more of a Torts than a DG.

Tocchet was tough as nails as a player.  It's reasonable to assume that he will coach that way.  It may work, but the world has changed since 1992 when Tocchet won his cup in Pittsburgh - coached by Scotty Bowman.  Interesting to note that Tocchet was coached by Paul Holmgren in Philadelphia before his trade to the Penguins.  He went to Pittsburgh with Mule's father for the cup run in 1992.

Edited October 18, 2023 by Sabres Fan in NS
more goodly ..

[BearWithME]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

It only is if you want to stereotype an entire generation.  

I am a boomer that grew up with Lombardi, Knight, etc.  I idolized players that sold cars and fast food in the off season.  I remember that.  

 When I was in my early fifties I was an executive reporting  directly to a certain VP.  The VP was a younger Gen X.    He yelled and screamed, he blamed others publicly, said outlandish things to customers and suppliers, and he intimidated people.  He saluted his boss and everyone above him and he $hit on his direct reports.   I could not take his $hit or stand the way he treated good people.   I had no choice but to quit him. I moved on and left him and the project.  My leaving raised eyebrows and eventually exposed him for the fraud he is.   
 

Me too.  

I have been managing people for 20 years, and the best advice I got informing my practice was from my mother, who said people will only follow a leader who follows their heart. You have to be who you are, because the people you are leading have needs that change on a minute-to-minute basis. If you are trying to wear a different hat with all of them, and change your hat based on contextual clues, you will come across as tone deaf and disingenuous. Worse still--if you adopt that persona out of a misperception that that is what the people above you want, when you inevitably fail, you will be left regretting that you "didn't give your best effort," which is layman's term for not holding true to your ideals.

I had many different types of coaches during my youth, and many different direct supervisors as an adult. I've been reduced to tears by a coach yelling at me, and reduced to boredom by a coach ignoring me. But, I've given my best effort for a coach yelling at me, and given it my all to make a coach notice me. I've had managers that have gotten my best work when they were involved, and others who have gotten my best work when they were aloof. At the end of the day, all I can really say is that humans are not logical creatures on a minute to minute basis, but if you look at the bigger picture, patterns emerge.

To me, from the outside looking in, its a young team--and he is nurturing them along based on what he feels is the right thing to do. It got good results last year, and he is confident that it will get even better results this year. 

This thread title, btw, seems to be in poor taste. A coach having the back of a bunch of 20 year old kids and not throwing them under the bus 1/41st of the way through the season doesn't seem like its a culture of losing established by a worm tongue? 

46 minutes ago, zow2 said:

Donny has to get these guys pushing the action like they did last season.  Now we have a real goalie, don't be scared to keep trying to score goals.  They packed it in and got too defensive last night.  

This I agree with though--whether with a soft or firm hand, he needs to push tempo on these guys. Foot-off-the-gassing is common for all teams and players learning to be good, in any sport, at any level. I would be way more "firm" with them on the let-down behavior from last night than I would be on the effort they gave in a loss to NYI.

[PerreaultForever]

3 hours ago, RochesterExpat said:

I agree that losing at home is unacceptable from the culture perspective. Obviously this is just conjecture, but I suspect DG prefers the 'disappointed dad' route for sending a message to the team as opposed to Torts' style of just unloading at anyone and everyone. They can both be effective if they fit the personality and culture of the team as well as the coach. It would be hard to take DG seriously if he suddenly showed up one day screaming at players. It's not his style.

Of course, if that's how he's managing the locker room, I'm disappointed that he's not making comments to that effect publicly and I think that's probably what you're saying here. He should present the same message to the media that he does in the locker room (worded differently but the core is the same). The game should have been won and he is disappointed in players not meeting expectations. You don't necessarily need to publicly admonish someone in order to indicate they didn't reach expectations. In the past, he's made comments to that effect (VO at the end of last season), but he is generally too reserved--at least in my opinion--on public comments, and I believe he's probably that way in the locker room as well.

I'm not going to suggest we need Torts style, but Philly did come out strong for their home opener despite their lack of talent. It was a high energy high effort game and the fans went home happy. Philly will lose this year because they lack talent but it does seem they've gotten rid of most of their garbage and the effort level is high end. So when people say the "old school" no longer works that just might not be true. Either that or the myth of Torts and the reality are two different things.

I also think Granato is too reserved and too nice. There should be more accountability and consequence at this stage. It's hard to bench people with a thin roster and nothing but kids to plug in but there has to be consequences and the bar has to be raised for the team and it's culture to progress. 

Once again, I would say letting Peca go was a huge mistake. Peca had that ethic and  sort of gravitas. They could have made him bad cop to Granato's good cop (in a way) and helped raise the bar that way. Peca would have been a great role model.

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, LTS said:

I am curious what you want Granato to do.  The insinuation seems to be that because he does not say the things you want him to say that he accepts losing.  I think Granato accepts that losing happens.  I think Granato's approach is just different.  I don't think anyone shows up at the rink and says "Hey, it's okay if we lose today, it's not that important."

Granato's approach is to help them understand where mistakes are being made and to improve so that they improve their chance of winning. This is as opposed to the types of coaches who go out and say "We need to play harder."  Okay... but playing harder doesn't necessarily fix the problems.

It's like the Little League coach who yells at his outfielder "You gotta catch the ball Jonny".  Jonny's all like "No ***** coach, I don't drop them on purpose."

That's not coaching.. that's just yelling at players.  That job belongs to the fans and the media.

I want a full shift from "learning experience" to "not good enough". It's not there in his speech. 

Most of all though, what I want Granato to do isn't about words, it's about a defensive system where the forwards actually do something. Every year we are on about the defensemen and to some extent the goalies and the real biggest issue consistent all these years is the forwards and their mentality. We  just don't "play the right way" as they like to say on other teams and until we change that we won't win. I just don't think Granato can get it done at this point.