2023 NHL Summer Trade Thread

[PerreaultForever]

9 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Hill 6'6"

Keumper 6'5"

Grubauer 6'1"

Vasilevskiy 6'4"

Binnington 6'2"

Murray 6'5"

MAF 6'2"

Crawford 6'2"

Quick 6'1"

Idk, I guess there is some size in the winner but there is also a bunch of guys at or an inch above Levi's height. I am not sure if there is a good correlation between cup winners and goalie size. I'm not sure there is anything to disprove. 

If we go Vezina: Price is 6'3", Holtby is 6'2", Bobrovsky 6'2", Rinne 6'5", Vasilevskiy 6'4", Hellebuyck 6'4", Fluery 6'2", Shesterkin 6'1", and Ullmark 6'4"

Idk again if height is really as much as an advantage as we think, I think good goalies are just good. 6'2"-6'3" seems to be the sweet spot if we average this out but again, I don't think having a big goalie is a true advantage as much as a perceived one. 

Interesting you bypassed the fact that Levi (at 6') is smaller than all of them. 

Can a small goalie be good? Sure. 

Does a big goalie have an advantage? Absolutely. 

[Taro T]

12 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

Interesting you bypassed the fact that Levi (at 6') is smaller than all of them. 

Can a small goalie be good? Sure. 

Does a big goalie have an advantage? Absolutely. 

Can a slow goalie be good?  Sure.  Ben Bishop comes to mind.

Does an athletic goalie have an advantage?  Absolutely.  😉

[PerreaultForever]

9 minutes ago, Taro T said:

Can a slow goalie be good?  Sure.  Ben Bishop comes to mind.

Does an athletic goalie have an advantage?  Absolutely.  😉

Yup, (and I know you were being a bit of a smartass but that's okay) and athleticism is something a smaller goalie is going to need to succeed. Levi has that. Whether or not the size will be a factor (or how big of a factor) remains to be seen. I do remember a few shots going in up and over the shoulder but the sample size isn't large enough yet. 

Ullmark's size definitely helps him, and it was an inability to move fast enough that made him look pretty meh in the playoffs when the speed of the game was at it's maximum. It's still a point of contention as to whether that was due to nagging injury or if he's just not that good at that level. Hill, on the other hand, wasn't a particularly athletic guy but his size making the first save, and Vegas' D eliminating the 2nd shot made him more than adequate for winning the cup. 

Point being, if our D was really good (or gets really good) maybe you can even get away with UPL and he looks adequate with his size but until that time, he's going to look good and then bad at different moments. Levi? Too soon to know. I have hope for him, but would I rather have a good big goalie? Absolutely. 

[Zamboni]

Some people need to pull out a freaking ruler and look at what 2 or 3 inches looks like. Then ask yourself “why am I so GD obsessed with thinking that much length is the difference between having doubts and concerns about a goalie and not having any doubts or concerns”

Good grief.

With the proper handling and workload as a rookie… overall Levi will be fine.

[shrader]

1 hour ago, Zamboni said:

Some people need to pull out a freaking ruler and look at what 2 or 3 inches looks like. Then ask yourself “why am I so GD obsessed with thinking that much length is the difference between having doubts and concerns about a goalie and not having any doubts or concerns”

Good grief.

With the proper handling and workload as a rookie… overall Levi will be fine.

Paging @inkman. @inkman, you have a call on the white courtesy phone. 

[Flashsabre]

2 hours ago, Zamboni said:

Some people need to pull out a freaking ruler and look at what 2 or 3 inches looks like. Then ask yourself “why am I so GD obsessed with thinking that much length is the difference between having doubts and concerns about a goalie and not having any doubts or concerns”

Good grief.

With the proper handling and workload as a rookie… overall Levi will be fine.

I thought your post was going in an entirely different direction  until I saw the word “goalie”😛😂

[Night Train]

22 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

I thought your post was going in an entirely different direction  until I saw the word “goalie”😛😂

 Obviously Irish..

[Randall Flagg]

3 hours ago, Zamboni said:

Some people need to pull out a freaking ruler and look at what 2 or 3 inches looks like. Then ask yourself “why am I so GD obsessed with thinking that much length is the difference between having doubts and concerns about a goalie and not having any doubts or concerns”

Good grief.

With the proper handling and workload as a rookie… overall Levi will be fine.

Good grief! SMH at these people!!

[LGR4GM]

15 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Interesting you bypassed the fact that Levi (at 6') is smaller than all of them. 

Can a small goalie be good? Sure. 

Does a big goalie have an advantage? Absolutely. 

I... didn't. I just looked to see if their was a soft correlation between size and goodness and there really isn't. Being athletic and able to track plays are the biggest factors.

You universally claiming a big goalie has an advantage is not true. Biron has talked about the bigger holes that get created by being big. Idk why you dislike Levi. Not sure why you have any faith in UPL but size only matters for goalies at extremes. 

14 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Yup, (and I know you were being a bit of a smartass but that's okay) and athleticism is something a smaller goalie is going to need to succeed. Levi has that. Whether or not the size will be a factor (or how big of a factor) remains to be seen. I do remember a few shots going in up and over the shoulder but the sample size isn't large enough yet. 

Ullmark's size definitely helps him, and it was an inability to move fast enough that made him look pretty meh in the playoffs when the speed of the game was at it's maximum. It's still a point of contention as to whether that was due to nagging injury or if he's just not that good at that level. Hill, on the other hand, wasn't a particularly athletic guy but his size making the first save, and Vegas' D eliminating the 2nd shot made him more than adequate for winning the cup. 

Point being, if our D was really good (or gets really good) maybe you can even get away with UPL and he looks adequate with his size but until that time, he's going to look good and then bad at different moments. Levi? Too soon to know. I have hope for him, but would I rather have a good big goalie? Absolutely. 

Upl looks adequate? The guys a sieve and inconsistent as hell.

[Huckleberry]

45 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

I... didn't. I just looked to see if their was a soft correlation between size and goodness and there really isn't. Being athletic and able to track plays are the biggest factors.

You universally claiming a big goalie has an advantage is not true. Biron has talked about the bigger holes that get created by being big. Idk why you dislike Levi. Not sure why you have any faith in UPL but size only matters for goalies at extremes. 

Upl looks adequate? The guys a sieve and inconsistent as hell.

I would keep Comrie over him even.  UPL might be a big guy but plays like a small goalie.   Just should top net and you got a good chance on scoring on him.

[Taro T]

21 minutes ago, Huckleberry said:

I would keep Comrie over him even.  UPL might be a big guy but plays like a small goalie.   Just should top net and you got a good chance on scoring on him.

Presuming Adams doesn't upgrade the goaltending from what it is currently the question becomes which do you want for the backup role; do you want the guy with the higher floor but lower (and likely significantly lower) ceiling or do you want the younger guy that still MAY be improving who has the significantly lower floor but higher ceiling.  Personally, am with you and would rather have the guy with the higher floor.  The idea being that he should be primarily getting the easier starts so him not giving up the horrible 5 hole goal that starts a rally against is more important than him not giving up the blocker side goal that is considered a "good" goal even though he'll give up more of those than an actual good goalie would.

Want the backup that doesn't give up the killer goal.  And weak stuff going in along the ice (whether post or 5 hole) seems more frequently to be a killer than a misplayed glove save (which the other guy has happen too often also).  Comrie almost never gives up that goal along the ice.

[Night Train]

Since the double hip surgery, UPL has never developed. His high point was with Finland in the world juniors years back...pre-surgery. I would look at Comrie or one of the Rochester Goalies over him, if left with those options. There is still time to add. 

[Thorny]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I... didn't. I just looked to see if their was a soft correlation between size and goodness and there really isn't. Being athletic and able to track plays are the biggest factors.

You universally claiming a big goalie has an advantage is not true. Biron has talked about the bigger holes that get created by being big. Idk why you dislike Levi. Not sure why you have any faith in UPL but size only matters for goalies at extremes. 

Upl looks adequate? The guys a sieve and inconsistent as hell.

NO correlation between size and success as a goalie? Find that hard to believe 

It doesn’t need to be the biggest factor to be *A* factor. The body of starting goaltenders suggest size is still favourable, at this time. Though, as dudacek has pointed out, it’s a shifting trend 

Edited July 15, 2023 by Thorny

[Carmel Corn]

4 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I... didn't. I just looked to see if their was a soft correlation between size and goodness and there really isn't. Being athletic and able to track plays are the biggest factors.

You universally claiming a big goalie has an advantage is not true. Biron has talked about the bigger holes that get created by being big. Idk why you dislike Levi. Not sure why you have any faith in UPL but size only matters for goalies at extremes. 

Upl looks adequate? The guys a sieve and inconsistent as hell.

 

26 minutes ago, Thorny said:

NO correlation between size and success as a goalie? Find that hard to believe 

It doesn’t need to be the biggest factor to be *A* factor. The body of starting goaltenders suggest size is still favourable, at this time. Though, as dudacek has pointed out, it’s a shifting trend 

Is there any kind of metric out there which correlates rebound control to goals against?  One of my biggest concerns with UPL is his inability to control rebounds, which seemingly turns into more goals against us vs. other netminders who may be better.  No idea if my suspicion is true.

[LGR4GM]

35 minutes ago, Carmel Corn said:

 

Is there any kind of metric out there which correlates rebound control to goals against?  One of my biggest concerns with UPL is his inability to control rebounds, which seemingly turns into more goals against us vs. other netminders who may be better.  No idea if my suspicion is true.

Not that I can think of. But indirectly you would see a lot of red on a shot heat map where those rebounds go if they turned into shots.

Upl has a slow recovery from initial shots. It's something noticeable with Levi along with the difference in rebounds.

[PerreaultForever]

9 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I... didn't. I just looked to see if their was a soft correlation between size and goodness and there really isn't. Being athletic and able to track plays are the biggest factors.

You universally claiming a big goalie has an advantage is not true. Biron has talked about the bigger holes that get created by being big. Idk why you dislike Levi. Not sure why you have any faith in UPL but size only matters for goalies at extremes. 

Upl looks adequate? The guys a sieve and inconsistent as hell.

You like to twist words and make unfounded claims don't you.

Show me where I "disliked" Levi? Show me. 

Matter of fact, if you go right back to the Reinhart trade, you will see I was one of the first (if not the first) to say it was a great trade and Levi would be a star. Go look. 

[LGR4GM]

55 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

You like to twist words and make unfounded claims don't you.

Show me where I "disliked" Levi? Show me. 

Matter of fact, if you go right back to the Reinhart trade, you will see I was one of the first (if not the first) to say it was a great trade and Levi would be a star. Go look. 

Chill, take a deep breath

Edited July 16, 2023 by LGR4GM

[LGR4GM]

On 7/14/2023 at 8:46 PM, PerreaultForever said:

Point being, if our D was really good (or gets really good) maybe you can even get away with UPL and he looks adequate with his size but until that time, he's going to look good and then bad at different moments. Levi? Too soon to know. I have hope for him, but would I rather have a good big goalie? Absolutely. 

Let's just restart here. UPL isn't particularly good and it's not the defense, he's slow to recover in part because of his size. He's also slow moving lateral, which is a key component in a modern offense. Take the puck to A, get the defense and goalie to shift that way, hit B the opposite way for a shot.

A good goalie is good imo whether they are small or large, the height imo doesn't make them naturally better. Levi will have holes in different spots than a large goalie but large goalies have holes too. For example the V under a goalie arm is larger in a taller goalie while the space above the shoulders is smaller. The biggest issue Levi will have is over the shoulder because he naturally won't cover the area as much, it's why he comes out further. 

Now, big goalies can be good. And small ones can be bad. They have different advantages and weaknesses. Shesterkin and Saros aren't big but they are good. Leinonen is big but he's not good. Lots of NHL goalies that are big wash out. It all depends on reactions, positioning, and tracking. Smaller goalies move faster usually, large ones cover more area. Not always but generally. I don't think though there is a good correlation to say bigger is always better in terms of goalies. That was my only point with looking at past winners. 

Will Levi succeed? Maybe, but he won't fail simply because he's short. 

[JohninMinn.]

On 7/14/2023 at 7:28 PM, Taro T said:

Can a slow goalie be good?  Sure.  Ben Bishop comes to mind.

Does an athletic goalie have an advantage?  Absolutely.  😉

UPL cost us a ton of goals by being big and slow.

[PerreaultForever]

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Let's just restart here. UPL isn't particularly good and it's not the defense, he's slow to recover in part because of his size. He's also slow moving lateral, which is a key component in a modern offense. Take the puck to A, get the defense and goalie to shift that way, hit B the opposite way for a shot.

Which is exactly where the good D comes in. If you have one, that second shot doesn't occur. 

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

The biggest issue Levi will have is over the shoulder because he naturally won't cover the area as much, it's why he comes out further. 

Which is exactly what I said. 

2 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

Chill, take a deep breath

No, somebody else might get to say that but not you. You post all your snark and sarcastic memes and all your other BS so you don't get the high road unless you start to earn it. 

[LGR4GM]

Ok 

[CTJoe]

10 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

Which is exactly where the good D comes in. If you have one, that second shot doesn't occur. 

Which is exactly what I said. 

No, somebody else might get to say that but not you. You post all your snark and sarcastic memes and all your other BS so you don't get the high road unless you start to earn it. 

Levi doesn't have a problem with the high glove (corner) shot because he remains tall.  He has an upright style not a butterly one.  This style leaves him vulnerable low to the corners, but, he counteracts this with elite leg quickness - watch the first NYR game where he anticipates a potential redirection and kicks out his right pad, making an amazing save look routine.

UPL has size, that's it.  He's very weak on his glove side, has below average quickness, below average positioning and below average rebound control. He's still young in goaltending age but that's a lot of issues to improve upon.

KA is playing a very dangerous game if he's relying on Levi to start and UPL to back up.  Comrie is probably the better backup (2 major injuries last year derailed his season), but if Comrie backs up, what do you do with UPL?  Not keeping 3 goalies and UPL wouldn't clear waivers an make it to Rochester.  Best solution is trade for a Hart, Marstrom type (with UPL in the trade) and stash Comrie in Rochester in case of injury.  This, unfortunately, doesn't seem the oath KA is looking at.  He has an irrational liking for UPL

 

 

[Radar]

Wow! This site is getting very personally attack prone. Sort of like American society as a whole.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, CTJoe said:

Levi doesn't have a problem with the high glove (corner) shot because he remains tall.  He has an upright style not a butterly one.  This style leaves him vulnerable low to the corners, but, he counteracts this with elite leg quickness - watch the first NYR game where he anticipates a potential redirection and kicks out his right pad, making an amazing save look routine.

UPL has size, that's it.  He's very weak on his glove side, has below average quickness, below average positioning and below average rebound control. He's still young in goaltending age but that's a lot of issues to improve upon.

KA is playing a very dangerous game if he's relying on Levi to start and UPL to back up.  Comrie is probably the better backup (2 major injuries last year derailed his season), but if Comrie backs up, what do you do with UPL?  Not keeping 3 goalies and UPL wouldn't clear waivers an make it to Rochester.  Best solution is trade for a Hart, Marstrom type (with UPL in the trade) and stash Comrie in Rochester in case of injury.  This, unfortunately, doesn't seem the oath KA is looking at.  He has an irrational liking for UPL

 

 

Personally, expect UPL is FINALLY starting to get comfortable with the surgically altered hips.  He hasn't been as bad at crossbar shots and even 5 hole this last season as he'd been in the recent past.  (But, yes, his glove hand is definitely below average.)  So some of those issues you've mentioned COULD get cleared up, but it definitely isn't a given they will.

And also believe that all those other issues besides the glove are products of UPL being poor at anticipating plays.  It's something that he CAN and should be able to get better at with experience, but it remains to be seen whether he can get good enough at that to allow his size to be an advantage and not a disadvantage (necessarily slower reaction time than a smaller goalie would have when they both twig onto what's going to happen at the same time; but if he's anticipated the play and is set there really are very little areas of the net that a shooter can try for).

Your point about Levi coming out high is important as the Sabres need to watch the backdoor and also the below the goalline to the slot pass MUCH better than they currently do because those both will tend to be a prime way to beat Levi (backdoor, because he'll either be forced to make a highlight reel save or will be beat badly; below the line to the slot because there will be a lof of room to the far side before Levi can get out to take the angle back down).  Let the kid take the shot and worry about taking away the passing lanes forcing him to move.  Even just creating a slight momentary delay in that pass will typically be enough to allow Levi's athleticism to make the acrobatic save we saw (your Rags example being a prime example) several times over just 7 games.

[JustOneParade]

1 hour ago, Taro T said:

Personally, expect UPL is FINALLY starting to get comfortable with the surgically altered hips.  He hasn't been as bad at crossbar shots and even 5 hole this last season as he'd been in the recent past.  (But, yes, his glove hand is definitely below average.)  So some of those issues you've mentioned COULD get cleared up, but it definitely isn't a given they will.

And also believe that all those other issues besides the glove are products of UPL being poor at anticipating plays.  It's something that he CAN and should be able to get better at with experience, but it remains to be seen whether he can get good enough at that to allow his size to be an advantage and not a disadvantage (necessarily slower reaction time than a smaller goalie would have when they both twig onto what's going to happen at the same time; but if he's anticipated the play and is set there really are very little areas of the net that a shooter can try for).

Your point about Levi coming out high is important as the Sabres need to watch the backdoor and also the below the goalline to the slot pass MUCH better than they currently do because those both will tend to be a prime way to beat Levi (backdoor, because he'll either be forced to make a highlight reel save or will be beat badly; below the line to the slot because there will be a lof of room to the far side before Levi can get out to take the angle back down).  Let the kid take the shot and worry about taking away the passing lanes forcing him to move.  Even just creating a slight momentary delay in that pass will typically be enough to allow Levi's athleticism to make the acrobatic save we saw (your Rags example being a prime example) several times over just 7 games.

Great points @Taro T. I was bored one night last week and watched the extended highlights of the Detroit game, curious about the 6 goals Levi gave up. What you describe was how a couple of the goals played out.

Separately, that game represents the flip side of the small sample size argument re: Levi. Four of the goals he had no chance on. A PP goal where a Wing was left unattended at the back post. A redirect on the PP. The ‘doink goal’ that went off Power’s hip. Then Boosh’s perfect outlet pass to a Wing streaking into the slot then making a pass to an unattended (again) Wing at the post for a tap in. My point being those 4 goals in his 7 games inflates his GA average by over 0.5 per game.