Around the NHL 2023 Summer Edition

[shrader]

Pysyk is only 31? His first run here feels like a lifetime ago. I guess the losing does that do you. 

[JohnC]

22 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

If you stop questioning it, I can stop talking about it. Nobody said "guarantee" but increase the probability? Definitely. 

When we deconstructed, I said I was going to compare our rebuild to other teams and see who had the best plan. So far Seattle is ahead of us (yes, I know there's nuance and difference in their case), New Jersey is way ahead of us, Detroit is behind us, and Ottawa is slightly behind us. Vancouver failed miserably if you want to add them (I wouldn't). 

I'm interested now in a couple things besides obviously seeing if Adams did enough. Will what Detroit did work? Some strange choices. Will be interesting to see. Will Ottawa equal or pass us? Similar to us with a few differences. Definitely in the mix. Will Nashville pull off a miracle and stay competitive despite deconstructing? and how fast (or slow) will the Montreal plan go? Lots of interesting varying pathways and it'll make for great discussion down the road if someone else succeeds and we fail.

Obviously if we succeed, it's all good, and then (and only then) hats off to Adams for being right. 

But I ain't getting on board until the the train actually gets rolling. As I've said many times, fool me once and all that. Prove it now. 

You're like a gambler who wants to place a bet after the contest has been played. In that way you can claim that you were right. That's not how it works. 

You stated that Jersey is way ahead of us in their team rebuild. I strenuously disagree. I believe they are a year or at most two years ahead of us in team development. In many ways their model is the same model we are following i.e. mostly relying on drafting and developing. This is a strong argument to stay the course. And that's exactly what we are doing. 

[Zamboni]

7 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You're like a gambler who wants to place a bet after the contest has been played. In that way you can claim that you were right. That's not how it works. 

You stated that Jersey is way ahead of us in their team rebuild. I strenuously disagree. I believe they are a year or at most two years ahead of us in team development. In many ways their model is the same model we are following i.e. mostly relying on drafting and developing. This is a strong argument to stay the course. And that's exactly what we are doing. 

I don’t think you understand his mindset. At least from my point of view…

he says one positive thing about the Sabres organization or a player or a coach or a GM… And then he has to say two negative things so he doesn’t feel so dirty about saying one positive thing.

Alex Tuch he’s doing Great this year. But I really don’t like what Kevyn Adams didn’t do. And Buffalo it’s a small market town that no one cares about.

 

Levi looks like the real deal! but it’s too early to tell if he can continue it, and he probably will fall flat on his face at some point. So Kevyn Adams better get somebody else that’s better than Levi. 
 

Do you see the pattern? 

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, Zamboni said:

I don’t think you understand his mindset. At least from my point of view…

he says one positive thing about the Sabres organization or a player or a coach or a GM… And then he has to say two negative things so he doesn’t feel so dirty about saying one positive thing.

Alex Tuch he’s doing Great this year. But I really don’t like what Kevyn Adams didn’t do. And Buffalo it’s a small market town that no one cares about.

 

Levi looks like the real deal! but it’s too early to tell if he can continue it, and he probably will fall flat on his face at some point. So Kevyn Adams better get somebody else that’s better than Levi. 
 

Do you see the pattern? 

When asked to call heads or tails in a coin toss he responds by saying heads and tails. Then he claims he was right. 

[Curt]

20 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You're like a gambler who wants to place a bet after the contest has been played. In that way you can claim that you were right. That's not how it works. 

You stated that Jersey is way ahead of us in their team rebuild. I strenuously disagree. I believe they are a year or at most two years ahead of us in team development. In many ways their model is the same model we are following i.e. mostly relying on drafting and developing. This is a strong argument to stay the course. And that's exactly what we are doing. 

I think that you are being unfair.  @PerreaultForever  simply wants the Sabres to bring in a couple of good, proven veterans that can play significant roles.  He feels that would go a long way towards getting the team into the playoffs.  He has long been consistent in this view.

[JohnC]

5 minutes ago, Curt said:

I think that you are being unfair.  @PerreaultForever  simply wants the Sabres to bring in a couple of good, proven veterans that can play significant roles.  He feels that would go a long way towards getting the team into the playoffs.  He has long been consistent in this view.

I'm not being unfair. He acts as if the GM has sat on his hands over the past few years. That's not close to what has actually happened. This team has to a large extent been reconstructed over the past three years. He wants instant magic. It doesn't work that way. 

[Zamboni]

2 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I'm not being unfair. He acts as if the GM has sat on his hands over the past few years. That's not close to what has actually happened. This team has to a large extent been reconstructed over the past three years. He wants instant magic. It doesn't work that way. 

Not only that, but you don’t have to look much farther than the thread I began when Kevyn Adams took over to prove to one’s self that he has done plenty plenty plenty in the time he has been here. And just because one disagrees with it, and doesn’t like it, doesn’t mean he has done nothing while being the GM. 

[Doohickie]

12 minutes ago, Curt said:

@PerreaultForever  simply wants the Sabres to bring in a couple of good, proven veterans

...and that's what Kevyn has done over the summer in Erik Johnson and Connor Clifton.

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

...and that's what Kevyn has done over the summer in Erik Johnson and Connor Clifton.

Based on my expectation when KA assumed the GM position he is one year ahead of the rebuild schedule that I thought it would take for this team to get back to being serious competitors. And that's exactly where we are now. That is a major accomplishment considering how this franchise was set back during the ignominious tenure of Krueger. 

[mjd1001]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

You're like a gambler who wants to place a bet after the contest has been played. In that way you can claim that you were right. That's not how it works. 

You stated that Jersey is way ahead of us in their team rebuild. I strenuously disagree. I believe they are a year or at most two years ahead of us in team development. In many ways their model is the same model we are following i.e. mostly relying on drafting and developing. This is a strong argument to stay the course. And that's exactly what we are doing. 

There are so many ways to look at it. Overall New Jersey seems to be 1-2 years ahead of us in my opinion, but they are doing it a different way (by choice or necessity) 2 #1 overall picks (both forwards), and a #2 and a #4 overall pick (both D-men, both yet to make an impact.)  They have the Sabres beat in 'top 5' picks. Buffalo is doing their forward ranks with talent that, from an outsiders view, is slightly less 'ultra-high-end' but with more depth.  

And as far as Ottawa and Detroit. I think Detroit is a year (or two) ahead of us in terms of development, but I just don't think their ceiling is that high. Ottawa I think is slightly ahead of the Sabres in terms of their timetable also, but they have a higher ceiling than Detroit.  Where teams are in their development can be viewed from so many different ways because of timing, depth, individual development, starting point, potential ending point (ceiling), etc.

[LGR4GM]

7 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

There are so many ways to look at it. Overall New Jersey seems to be 1-2 years ahead of us in my opinion, but they are doing it a different way (by choice or necessity) 2 #1 overall picks (both forwards), and a #2 and a #4 overall pick (both D-men, both yet to make an impact.)  They have the Sabres beat in 'top 5' picks. Buffalo is doing their forward ranks with talent that, from an outsiders view, is slightly less 'ultra-high-end' but with more depth.  

And as far as Ottawa and Detroit. I think Detroit is a year (or two) ahead of us in terms of development, but I just don't think their ceiling is that high. Ottawa I think is slightly ahead of the Sabres in terms of their timetable also, but they have a higher ceiling than Detroit.  Where teams are in their development can be viewed from so many different ways because of timing, depth, individual development, starting point, potential ending point (ceiling), etc.

Im not sure how you get Ottawa or Detroit in front of Buffalo in terms of development. 

[Curt]

41 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

...and that's what Kevyn has done over the summer in Erik Johnson and Connor Clifton.

Well, honestly not sure if Johnson is good at this point, but yes, and Perrault was happy about the Clifton addition.

Still, kind of pales in comparison to what NJ has done.  They have brought in Dougie Hamilton, John Marino, Palat, Toffoli, and Meier over the past couple years.  I think Perreault would like to see moves like that.

54 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I'm not being unfair. He acts as if the GM has sat on his hands over the past few years. That's not close to what has actually happened. This team has to a large extent been reconstructed over the past three years. He wants instant magic. It doesn't work that way. 

Me complaint was with you saying that his criticisms were post mortem.  Only complaining that Sabres should have done more after the season was finished and they missed the playoffs.  It’s not true.  He has been calling for the Sabres too bring in more good veterans for quite a while.

[mjd1001]

3 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Im not sure how you get Ottawa or Detroit in front of Buffalo in terms of development. 

I think they are farther ahead as a team overall. Detroit's top 2 scorers were Larkin and Perron, both are there this year, and both are already seasoned vets. Debrincat is already going into his 7th season. Outside of Seider, their top 6 D-men are all close to or over 30 years of age. Compher and Copp are going to probably all get top-2 line minutes.  This is a veteran team. They have built the team to do well now, there are a lot fewer players left for development here than on the Sabres.  More vets with big roles (especially on the back end).  I'm not sure how you can NOT say the Red wings are ahead of us when they have so many more vets in key roles.

Ottawa is closer to Buffalo than Detroit, but again, I think Buffalo has more players they are expecting to play key roles in the future that still 'aren't there yet' than Ottawa does. Stutzle turned into a star last year, so while he can still get better he's already where he needs to be.  Jake Sanderson played a lot, but he would fit into a role like Power has with the Sabres (one year down in the NHL, many more to go). But the rest of their roster isn't littered with 'top prospects' that you are waiting to mature.  They too are trying to win now and really don't have several first round picks in the development pipeline like the Sabres do looking for their spot in the organizations.  So again, The Seeing how many more young/high draft pick players the Sabres are 'waiting on' compared to Ottawa, I'm also not sure how you can't say the Sens aren't ahead of us.

[thewookie1]

22 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I think they are farther ahead as a team overall. Detroit's top 2 scorers were Larkin and Perron, both are there this year, and both are already seasoned vets. Debrincat is already going into his 7th season. Outside of Seider, their top 6 D-men are all close to or over 30 years of age. Compher and Copp are going to probably all get top-2 line minutes.  This is a veteran team. They have built the team to do well now, there are a lot fewer players left for development here than on the Sabres.  More vets with big roles (especially on the back end).  I'm not sure how you can NOT say the Red wings are ahead of us when they have so many more vets in key roles.

Ottawa is closer to Buffalo than Detroit, but again, I think Buffalo has more players they are expecting to play key roles in the future that still 'aren't there yet' than Ottawa does. Stutzle turned into a star last year, so while he can still get better he's already where he needs to be.  Jake Sanderson played a lot, but he would fit into a role like Power has with the Sabres (one year down in the NHL, many more to go). But the rest of their roster isn't littered with 'top prospects' that you are waiting to mature.  They too are trying to win now and really don't have several first round picks in the development pipeline like the Sabres do looking for their spot in the organizations.  So again, The Seeing how many more young/high draft pick players the Sabres are 'waiting on' compared to Ottawa, I'm also not sure how you can't say the Sens aren't ahead of us.

Incorrect you are young Jedi 

Detroit has more vets, but doesn’t make them better than us. Arguably they are still worse in general while also dealing with far less of a timeframe to reach a higher level due to their advanced ages. Young players have potential to get better, older players almost never improve and thus are what they are. None of their players exactly scare me. Debrincat, Larkin and Raymond are their core 3 forwards. Very good players but after that you have a hodgepodge of ok players and nothing dynamic on offense.

 

The Sens are more or less snapping at our heels much like they did the whole past season. Dahlin > Chabot, Power > Sanderson thus automatically giving us an advantage on defense. Offensively they have similar skill levels to our guys but not quite the general depth of skill. The only place they may have us beat is in net, but Levi can still beat Korpisalo with a solid rookie campaign. 

Edited August 30, 2023 by thewookie1

[Doohickie]

14 minutes ago, thewookie1 said:

Incorrect you are young Jedi 

Detroit has more vets, but doesn’t make them better than us. Arguably they are still worse in general

Well he *did* say

55 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I think Detroit is a year (or two) ahead of us in terms of development, but I just don't think their ceiling is that high.

Detroit is ahead of us in their rebuild but their peak will not be as high as Buffalo's.  At least that's the way I see what @mjd1001 said.

[LGR4GM]

32 minutes ago, mjd1001 said:

I think they are farther ahead as a team overall. Detroit's top 2 scorers were Larkin and Perron, both are there this year, and both are already seasoned vets. Debrincat is already going into his 7th season. Outside of Seider, their top 6 D-men are all close to or over 30 years of age. Compher and Copp are going to probably all get top-2 line minutes.  This is a veteran team. They have built the team to do well now, there are a lot fewer players left for development here than on the Sabres.  More vets with big roles (especially on the back end).  I'm not sure how you can NOT say the Red wings are ahead of us when they have so many more vets in key roles.

Ottawa is closer to Buffalo than Detroit, but again, I think Buffalo has more players they are expecting to play key roles in the future that still 'aren't there yet' than Ottawa does. Stutzle turned into a star last year, so while he can still get better he's already where he needs to be.  Jake Sanderson played a lot, but he would fit into a role like Power has with the Sabres (one year down in the NHL, many more to go). But the rest of their roster isn't littered with 'top prospects' that you are waiting to mature.  They too are trying to win now and really don't have several first round picks in the development pipeline like the Sabres do looking for their spot in the organizations.  So again, The Seeing how many more young/high draft pick players the Sabres are 'waiting on' compared to Ottawa, I'm also not sure how you can't say the Sens aren't ahead of us.

The Sabres top 2 scorers are Tage and Skinner, both seasoned vets. They also have Tuch who's Debrincat in this scenario. 

Cozens is already better than Copp or Compher. Mitts is comparable. 

Yup their defense is old. But Dahlin is a veteran and so are Clifton and Johnson. 

They have built the team to... be a bubble team now and in the future. 

I just don't see how a team that finished behind us is further ahead. 

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, mjd1001 said:

I think they are farther ahead as a team overall. Detroit's top 2 scorers were Larkin and Perron, both are there this year, and both are already seasoned vets. Debrincat is already going into his 7th season. Outside of Seider, their top 6 D-men are all close to or over 30 years of age. Compher and Copp are going to probably all get top-2 line minutes.  This is a veteran team. They have built the team to do well now, there are a lot fewer players left for development here than on the Sabres.  More vets with big roles (especially on the back end).  I'm not sure how you can NOT say the Red wings are ahead of us when they have so many more vets in key roles.

Ottawa is closer to Buffalo than Detroit, but again, I think Buffalo has more players they are expecting to play key roles in the future that still 'aren't there yet' than Ottawa does. Stutzle turned into a star last year, so while he can still get better he's already where he needs to be.  Jake Sanderson played a lot, but he would fit into a role like Power has with the Sabres (one year down in the NHL, many more to go). But the rest of their roster isn't littered with 'top prospects' that you are waiting to mature.  They too are trying to win now and really don't have several first round picks in the development pipeline like the Sabres do looking for their spot in the organizations.  So again, The Seeing how many more young/high draft pick players the Sabres are 'waiting on' compared to Ottawa, I'm also not sure how you can't say the Sens aren't ahead of us.

That's an interesting way to look at a rebuild.  IMHO, a rebuild needs to be judged relative to how close the team is to being a true legitimate contender not simply whether it is seasoned or not.  

Yes, Detroit is more seasoned in general than the Sabres are at present, but simply don't see them contending nor close to contending.  So, IMHO they are either behind in the rebuild because the Sabres are closer to contending legitimately.  Or their rebuild has stalled, which again puts the Sabres as being closer to contending legitimately.

Kind of like how the Sabres 1st 2 rebuilds stalled out.  After year 2 of each, they weren't ahead of pretty much anybody.  And they circled back to square 1 about 1 year later each time.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Curt said:

Well, honestly not sure if Johnson is good at this point, but yes, and Perrault was happy about the Clifton addition.

Still, kind of pales in comparison to what NJ has done.  They have brought in Dougie Hamilton, John Marino, Palat, Toffoli, and Meier over the past couple years.  I think Perreault would like to see moves like that.

Me complaint was with you saying that his criticisms were post mortem.  Only complaining that Sabres should have done more after the season was finished and they missed the playoffs.  It’s not true.  He has been calling for the Sabres too bring in more good veterans for quite a while.

The discord is that the organization made a calculated decision to play young players rather than bring in veterans who would take playing time away from them. That was an organizational decision. Playing younger players at the expense of playing more experienced players was part of their developmental strategy. That was the right approach at that particular time. Now, the Sabres are in a different situation. The focus is now about winning over player development. 

The argument that the GM should have brought in some experienced players at the end of the season doesn't resonate with me. For one, being in a playoff race did benefit the young players. And it should be noted that in the last third of the season when the Sabres were making a serious playoff push the team was playing extremely well against quality teams who were also in a playoff race. Why alter the mix when it is working well? 

Edited August 30, 2023 by JohnC

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, JohnC said:

You're like a gambler who wants to place a bet after the contest has been played. In that way you can claim that you were right. That's not how it works. 

You stated that Jersey is way ahead of us in their team rebuild. I strenuously disagree. I believe they are a year or at most two years ahead of us in team development. In many ways their model is the same model we are following i.e. mostly relying on drafting and developing. This is a strong argument to stay the course. And that's exactly what we are doing. 

How long have you been here? obviously not back when I first talked about this stuff. You want to paint me as something I'm not. Please don't. 

IFF we make the playoffs this year then yes, Jersey is only a year or two ahead of us. IFF we miss the playoffs AGAIN, it's a different story. So as I said, it remains to be seen. 

[PerreaultForever]

7 hours ago, Curt said:

I think that you are being unfair.  @PerreaultForever  simply wants the Sabres to bring in a couple of good, proven veterans that can play significant roles.  He feels that would go a long way towards getting the team into the playoffs.  He has long been consistent in this view.

Thank you. Exactly. I think what Adams did was good (I suggested Clifton ages ago as a good value possible) but I wish he'd done more. He is still, for example, rolling the dice on goaltending. Something I would have solidified first. 

[JohnC]

Just now, PerreaultForever said:

How long have you been here? obviously not back when I first talked about this stuff. You want to paint me as something I'm not. Please don't. 

IFF we make the playoffs this year then yes, Jersey is only a year or two ahead of us. IFF we miss the playoffs AGAIN, it's a different story. So as I said, it remains to be seen. 

Of course it remains to be seen. The upcoming season hasn't been played yet. It's like saying water is wet. You are stating the obvious. There are no guarantees how any team is going to perform in any sport. It's the reality of sports and life. You are not going to get a guarantee no matter how strongly you demand it. That has nothing to do with the real world.

[Curt]

10 hours ago, JohnC said:

The discord is that the organization made a calculated decision to play young players rather than bring in veterans who would take playing time away from them. That was an organizational decision. Playing younger players at the expense of playing more experienced players was part of their developmental strategy. That was the right approach at that particular time. Now, the Sabres are in a different situation. The focus is now about winning over player development. 

The argument that the GM should have brought in some experienced players at the end of the season doesn't resonate with me. For one, being in a playoff race did benefit the young players. And it should be noted that in the last third of the season when the Sabres were making a serious playoff push the team was playing extremely well against quality teams who were also in a playoff race. Why alter the mix when it is working well? 

You are not really listening to what I’m saying.  I’m not debating with you about what is the correct approach for the Sabres.

I’m only saying that by characterizing Perrault’s stance as revisionist, you are very wrong.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Curt said:

You are not really listening to what I’m saying.  I’m not debating with you about what is the correct approach for the Sabres.

I’m only saying that by characterizing Perrault’s stance as revisionist, you are very wrong.

You are not listening to my responses! What I'm not saying is revisionist at all. I agree that his stance has been iron-clad consistent. That's my criticism of it. It doesn't acknowledge the positive changes that have occurred under KA. What he has done is place the failures of this GM's predecessors onto him. Of course, we are all disappointed that the Sabres barely missed out on the playoffs last season. But that doesn't mean the season was an abject failure. The team earned 16 more points from the prior season, and accomplished that with a youthful roster. You don't have to wear rosy colored classes to consider that a major step forward. 

There is no question that more has to be done to get to a more meaningful echelon in the league. But you don't automatically move up the ranks. You do it in steps and stages. And that's exactly what is happening with this franchise. I know where the dour poster is coming from. His position is I will accept good results when they have already happened. It's like going to the track and going to the betting window to place a bet on a horse that just won. And then make the claim that I astutely predicted the winner. That's not how sports and life work. 

[Curt]

54 minutes ago, JohnC said:

You are not listening to my responses! What I'm not saying is revisionist at all. I agree that his stance has been iron-clad consistent. That's my criticism of it. It doesn't acknowledge the positive changes that have occurred under KA. What he has done is place the failures of this GM's predecessors onto him. Of course, we are all disappointed that the Sabres barely missed out on the playoffs last season. But that doesn't mean the season was an abject failure. The team earned 16 more points from the prior season, and accomplished that with a youthful roster. You don't have to wear rosy colored classes to consider that a major step forward. 

There is no question that more has to be done to get to a more meaningful echelon in the league. But you don't automatically move up the ranks. You do it in steps and stages. And that's exactly what is happening with this franchise. I know where the dour poster is coming from. His position is I will accept good results when they have already happened. It's like going to the track and going to the betting window to place a bet on a horse that just won. And then make the claim that I astutely predicted the winner. That's not how sports and life work. 

You are very tough to have a conversation with when you get on about something.

You just kind of spout the same response regardless of what someone actually says to you.

[mjd1001]

16 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

The Sabres top 2 scorers are Tage and Skinner, both seasoned vets. They also have Tuch who's Debrincat in this scenario. 

Cozens is already better than Copp or Compher. Mitts is comparable. 

Yup their defense is old. But Dahlin is a veteran and so are Clifton and Johnson. 

They have built the team to... be a bubble team now and in the future. 

I just don't see how a team that finished behind us is further ahead. 

Again, I'm not talking about who is better right now, or was last year. I am talking about how much development is left for who you project to be on your team going forward.  The Sabres have a lot of young guys that may/might/should be part of this team going forward that still have a lot of development in the future. Savoie, Levi, Kulich, Rosen, Östlund, Kozak, Kisikov are all guys that have a ceiling that could be very good NHL players. On the roster you have Power, Quinn, Peterka also that have ceilings to be potential NHL players/goodplayers.   

They ALL have more 'development' in front of them than they do behind them.  Neither Detroit nor Ottawa have as many players with ceilings that high in their pipeline that have more development in front of them than behind them.  That is exactly how I am judging that the Sabres are 'behind' them in terms of development. Its not a bad thing...but it has zero to do with who is better now..it is just how much room there is between where the young players are and where their ceiling is..and just how many you have in that category.

17 hours ago, thewookie1 said:

Incorrect you are young Jedi 

Detroit has more vets, but doesn’t make them better than us. Arguably they are still worse in general while also dealing with far less of a timeframe to reach a higher level due to their advanced ages. Young players have potential to get better, older players almost never improve and thus are what they are. None of their players exactly scare me. Debrincat, Larkin and Raymond are their core 3 forwards. Very good players but after that you have a hodgepodge of ok players and nothing dynamic on offense.

 

The Sens are more or less snapping at our heels much like they did the whole past season. Dahlin > Chabot, Power > Sanderson thus automatically giving us an advantage on defense. Offensively they have similar skill levels to our guys but not quite the general depth of skill. The only place they may have us beat is in net, but Levi can still beat Korpisalo with a solid rookie campaign. 

See my immediate above post.   I am not incorrect. YOU are incorrect in that you probably don't see the direction I am coming from or that I view 'development' a bit different than others.