Jakob Chychrun scratched for trade related reasons

[Hank]

28 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

The CONTRAST is what is interesting to me. I thought I made that clear but maybe not. The comparison is both start at the bottom or from scratch. We could have signed Berekovsky just as easily as they did for example. People here got all excited after we picked up Jost to fill 3C. We could just as easily have signed Donato cheap in the off season. Pretty much same level of play with arguably more offensive upside. Could have signed martin Jones over Grampa Anderson. We didn't have to spend to the cap, but we didn't have to stay cap floor either.

 As for "playing out west", they keep beating us. 

The results aren't fully in yet as it's only year 2, and maybe the Sabres plan in a few more years will leap frog over them. maybe not. We shall see. At the moment, they are ahead.

I am also fascinated by the Seattle build in contrast to the Sabres. I’ve paid more attention to them since the Tolvanen claim, as a Preds season ticket holder I believe I have a decent understanding of what he is relative to our roster, I think it was a missed opportunity. 

[Pimlach]

32 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

The CONTRAST is what is interesting to me. I thought I made that clear but maybe not. The comparison is both start at the bottom or from scratch. We could have signed Berekovsky just as easily as they did for example. People here got all excited after we picked up Jost to fill 3C. We could just as easily have signed Donato cheap in the off season. Pretty much same level of play with arguably more offensive upside. Could have signed martin Jones over Grampa Anderson. We didn't have to spend to the cap, but we didn't have to stay cap floor either.

 As for "playing out west", they keep beating us. 

The results aren't fully in yet as it's only year 2, and maybe the Sabres plan in a few more years will leap frog over them. maybe not. We shall see. At the moment, they are ahead.

Looking at how expansion teams are initially supplied with players, it is easier for them to start out respectable (Seattle), if not good (Vegas), than it is for teams to rebuild.   

Seattle started with a veteran team of good players and with nice additions of 2 prime first round picks.   

[dudacek]

It seems odd to me to be crediting Seattle for doing a good job with goalies while smacking Adams.

Craig Anderson .914 (last year .897)

Phillip Grubauer .900 (.889)

UPL .896 (.917)

Martin Jones .892 (.900)

Eric Comrie .883 (.920)

Sabres have won 27 games this year, the Kraken 30 🤷

 

 

[JohnC]

6 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I don't think that's really true. The Vegas thing was an anomaly and Seattle didn't get any of those side deals and benefits. The roster they managed to cobble together wasn't very good (although they did get Will Borgen from some team or other :)) They got Gourde from Tampa but most of their better players are drafted or signed as free agents. 

I'm not suggesting that we should have signed all the players they did. I do think the draft focus is a good approach and I do think Adams did a decent job clearing out Eichel Reinhart and Risto, but I also think he failed on goaltending and his plan is slower than it needs to be. I wasn't sure if Cozens would break out this year or next, but with his emergence and us being as close as we are despite the goaltending and defensive holes it feels like a wasted opportunity and if we miss the playoffs by a handful of points you have to end up thinking if he'd just made that one trade or signed that one goalie.................

One small example. Remember when Samuelsson was injured and we had a rash of D injuries and came up totally short on D men and then lost a bunch of games as a result. maybe if he'd snapped up Mike Reilly when Boston waived him we'd have had just enough depth to save a few points there and that might be enough right there. (not suggesting Mike Reilly is all that and there is a contract but we are a floor team and it'd be just one more year etc etc)  In other words, while the long term plan might be sound, the timeline imo is TOO slow.

You gave a well-reasoned and thoughtful response. However, I still strenuously disagree with you. The one aspect that both Vegas and Seattle had as expansion teams compared to what other rebuilding teams undergo is a clean slate (roster). That's a critical difference/advantage that conventionally rebuilding teams don't have. Even if rebuilding teams want to dramatically rework their rosters, they have to contend contracts that are already committed. 

The goalie argument is something that we have discussed for a long time. There were goalies that we targeted last offseason. Some of them simply didn't want to play here. (Ullmark is somewhat of a different situation but not altogether different. Consistently losing is not an enticing appeal when pursuing players.) That unappealing situation also applied to defensemen on the market. Just because you want a particular player that doesn't mean that the player wants to come here. Who can blame players who have other options find the Sabres to be an unappealing destination. I see that that situation changing now. 

The Sabres are mostly rebuilding from within. It's the right approach. It's working out reasonably well. From my perspective the Sabres are a year ahead of where I thought they would be. Although not completely satisfied, I'm tepidly happy where this team is, and where it is going. Stay the course!

[PerreaultForever]

47 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Looking at how expansion teams are initially supplied with players, it is easier for them to start out respectable (Seattle), if not good (Vegas), than it is for teams to rebuild.   

Seattle started with a veteran team of good players and with nice additions of 2 prime first round picks.   

Oh come on, it's not like we didn't have a roster already. Thompson, Dahlin, and so on. If anything, we had the better starting point and we already had a farm team and a prospect pool. They had to build their prospect pool from scratch as well. I'm calling it an even starting point, but if you look closely we had the advantage and should be better.

The comparison for me is simply in terms of approach. We will see who wins long term. See if the strides they took this year will continue next or will we surge ahead. 

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm not going to go backwards and go over all the possible options for center because as I have said, it's a GM's job to identify holes and fill them. If there is a UFA that can fill it you fill it and if not, you make a trade to fill it. That's if you want to win now. They don't. (you'd have to look at every team and every roster and their players and prospects and that's his job not mine)

Now to the quoted passage, regardless of whatever else you like or dislike about Adams, and you can be the bigger homer fan and praise and hope all you want, but if you do not acknowledge the simple and obvious fact that he totally screwed up goaltending with Ullmark (and failing to replace him) you are a fool. 

I did your job for you and you ignored it. I expressed with details why your stance was flawed and you ignored it. I took time to show you the moves Adams did make and you ignored it. The bolded is laughably naïve for how an NHL roster gets constructed or how the Sabres roster is constructed. Adams has repeatedly stated in boring old English what he is doing and you have ignored it. You can't just trade or sign for every hole you have. Your argument is so bad that you are now talking about Ullmark again, the guy was a UFA which again you ignore. He wanted to leave and he did. Could Adams have offered him an extra 1, 2, 3 mil to get him to stay, yes but again you keep ignoring what Adams has told you. But this is a distraction, you got proven wrong on the centers by 100% it was shown that your argument was incorrect and Adams was right. But now you have to deflect to a new topic, goaltending. No one who watches this team thinks the goalies are good enough and Adams is responsible for that. 

You are you are like a chicken playing chess. You strut around, s#!t all over the board, and then yell checkmate.

[Pimlach]

30 minutes ago, dudacek said:

It seems odd to me to be crediting Seattle for doing a good job with goalies while smacking Adams.

Craig Anderson .914 (last year .897)

Phillip Grubauer .900 (.889)

UPL .896 (.917)

Martin Jones .892 (.900)

Eric Comrie .883 (.920)

Sabres have won 27 games this year, the Kraken 30 🤷

 

 

There you go clouding the issue with facts again.    

Let me add that the way a team plays defense has a lot to do with the goaltenders success and great stats.   One only needs to look no further than at Linus Ullmark to understand this. 

Let's look at Seattle and Buffalo team stats.  

                                            Seattle      Buffalo

Total Saves                         1349         1538

SCA                                     1133          1190

 SV %                                   0.895        0.898

SV % (5v5)                          0.920        0.916

Total Goals Allowed               169           184

aGA (5v5)                                 99           120

GAA                                        3.09          3.47 

HDA                                         402           404

HDCO%                                    11.8             10

PK %                                        71.4           72.8

 

Conclusions? 

[PerreaultForever]

1 hour ago, LGR4GM said:

I did your job for you and you ignored it. I expressed with details why your stance was flawed and you ignored it. I took time to show you the moves Adams did make and you ignored it. The bolded is laughably naïve for how an NHL roster gets constructed or how the Sabres roster is constructed. Adams has repeatedly stated in boring old English what he is doing and you have ignored it. You can't just trade or sign for every hole you have. Your argument is so bad that you are now talking about Ullmark again, the guy was a UFA which again you ignore. He wanted to leave and he did. Could Adams have offered him an extra 1, 2, 3 mil to get him to stay, yes but again you keep ignoring what Adams has told you. But this is a distraction, you got proven wrong on the centers by 100% it was shown that your argument was incorrect and Adams was right. But now you have to deflect to a new topic, goaltending. No one who watches this team thinks the goalies are good enough and Adams is responsible for that. 

You are you are like a chicken playing chess. You strut around, s#!t all over the board, and then yell checkmate.

I'm actually really good at chess. We can play sometime if you like. 

There is a difference between "ignoring" an argument/statement and simply disagreeing with it. 

Adams, like all GMs speaks like a politician spouting a company line. I don't listen to what he or any GM says, I look at what they do. 

Are you seriously going to argue that Berekovsky on Cozen's wing wouldn't make us a better team than playing with a rookie? Goaltending is not a deflection, it has been the key issue for this team since they lost Ullmark and it still is the key issue. You are always crapping on Kakko and LaFreniere, so would the Rangers be where they are without the goalie? With our goalies instead of theirs? Think before you type and don't just argue.  

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm actually really good at chess. We can play sometime if you like. 

There is a difference between "ignoring" an argument/statement and simply disagreeing with it. 

Adams, like all GMs speaks like a politician spouting a company line. I don't listen to what he or any GM says, I look at what they do. 

Are you seriously going to argue that Berekovsky on Cozen's wing wouldn't make us a better team than playing with a rookie? Goaltending is not a deflection, it has been the key issue for this team since they lost Ullmark and it still is the key issue. You are always crapping on Kakko and LaFreniere, so would the Rangers be where they are without the goalie? With our goalies instead of theirs? Think before you type and don't just argue.  

I agree with you that he would produce more on Cozens wing this year and the team would be better. I also think Quinn will be better than him, possibly as soon as next year. 

[DarthEbriate]

5 hours ago, mjd1001 said:

Ok, a lot of variables here, and I don't understand 100% the analytics/fancy stats, but I don't agree with him being a disaster defensively, especially about his positioning. What I am about to say is that I think his 'positioning' is actually pretty good. Maybe he is late getting back. Maybe what I think is good positioning is not expected but regardless.....

I have posted on this very forum examples of goals against the Sabres have allowed, and what I have seen is FOR THE MOST PART when comparing Cozens and Tage, Thompson is much, MUCH less likely to leave the Defensive slot open compared to Cozens.  Does that mean he is better defensively? No, but to me positioning is staying where you are supposed to be.

And in the past month or so, Cozens has been getting better at not doing this compared to earlier in the season, but he is still aggressive in the D-zone that way.

Go back and watch the highlights of goals allowed by the Sabres over the past couple months.  Goals against when Cozens is on the ice are a LOT more likely to be scored from the slot..where you expect your Center normally be. Often times Cozens goes down low to help the D-men, the puck comes in front of the net 10-15 feet out and the eventually goal scorer has no one there as he lets the shot go and a goal is scored.  When I watch goals allowed when Tage is on the ice....he is much more likely to be in that center area between the tops of the circles.

So again, I'm not sure HOW The fancy stats are showing Tage's positioning is bad, because to me it isn't not.  That doesn't mean he's not late getting back, or maybe he SHOULD vacate the slot more and chase pucks into the corner...or anything else he isn't doing that he should be. But again, as far as not leaving the slot open for goal scorers, he is much better than the other centers on the team (including Cozens) in that one aspect.  Videos of goals allowed by the Sabres show that.

Thank you --- I will need to go back and watch more consolidated highlights.

I think there are two parts to this. One is team-related and the other is individual confidence/aggression.

For Tage, I see him holding position partially to not get beat. That's good as he's growing his center game. It also means he's not challenging opponents. I admit, this next sentence is completely unfair. Watch Bergeron -- he doesn't stay in the slot, he's everywhere at once. And he can get away with it because a) yeah, he's awesome, and b) his linemates slide for him subconsciously, they're a defensive hive-mind team. Thompson has Skinner who is way less tenacious in his own zone than on the forecheck, though he's quite improved since his Eichel-line days. They're just not defensive players. Granted, it all has to work together, I don't want Thompson to abandon the slot, but to learn to apply pressure when it's the right time, when his linemates can cover for him, etc. With his reach he can eliminate time and space so quickly, but right now he's too consistently passive. He should be casually deflecting a shot off his stick and into the netting once a game. I still have tons of faith he'll get better and better at this in the next few years.

For Cozens, I believe teams do use his aggression against him. He also still needs to learn to protect the slot and not go Risto-wandering; however, his intention is to go and get the puck and many times he does. For him, I see a big part of the recent improvement as you mention as his linemates getting used to that and also acclimating to the NHL game. He hasn't had Tuch/Skinner, he's had JJP/Quinn so when he goes to add pressure and attempt the turnover, he's got kids who aren't quite NHL speed yet looking to provide the cover. It's magnified by everyone on that line looking for the breakaway first and foremost. They're all works in progress.

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

There you go clouding the issue with facts again.    

Let me add that the way a team plays defense has a lot to do with the goaltenders success and great stats.   One only needs to look no further than at Linus Ullmark to understand this. 

Let's look at Seattle and Buffalo team stats.  

                                            Seattle      Buffalo

Total Saves                         1349         1538

SCA                                     1133          1190

 SV %                                   0.895        0.898

SV % (5v5)                          0.920        0.916

Total Goals Allowed               169           184

aGA (5v5)                                 99           120

GAA                                        3.09          3.47 

HDA                                         402           404

HDCO%                                    11.8             10

PK %                                        71.4           72.8

 

Conclusions? 

Both need better GT

That’d be my conclusion 

[JohnC]

3 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

I did your job for you and you ignored it. I expressed with details why your stance was flawed and you ignored it. I took time to show you the moves Adams did make and you ignored it. The bolded is laughably naïve for how an NHL roster gets constructed or how the Sabres roster is constructed. Adams has repeatedly stated in boring old English what he is doing and you have ignored it. You can't just trade or sign for every hole you have. Your argument is so bad that you are now talking about Ullmark again, the guy was a UFA which again you ignore. He wanted to leave and he did. Could Adams have offered him an extra 1, 2, 3 mil to get him to stay, yes but again you keep ignoring what Adams has told you. But this is a distraction, you got proven wrong on the centers by 100% it was shown that your argument was incorrect and Adams was right. But now you have to deflect to a new topic, goaltending. No one who watches this team thinks the goalies are good enough and Adams is responsible for that. 

You are you are like a chicken playing chess. You strut around, s#!t all over the board, and then yell checkmate.

Do chickens strut? I know roosters do but I haven't seen a chicken do the arrogant walk. 

[Taro T]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

Do chickens strut? I know roosters do but I haven't seen a chicken do the arrogant walk. 

Didn't know they yell checkmate, either.  😉

[JohnC]

Just now, Taro T said:

Didn't know they yell checkmate, either.  😉

No, they yell chickmate. 🤡

[tom webster]

5 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

The CONTRAST is what is interesting to me. I thought I made that clear but maybe not. The comparison is both start at the bottom or from scratch. We could have signed Berekovsky just as easily as they did for example. People here got all excited after we picked up Jost to fill 3C. We could just as easily have signed Donato cheap in the off season. Pretty much same level of play with arguably more offensive upside. Could have signed martin Jones over Grampa Anderson. We didn't have to spend to the cap, but we didn't have to stay cap floor either.

 As for "playing out west", they keep beating us. 

The results aren't fully in yet as it's only year 2, and maybe the Sabres plan in a few more years will leap frog over them. maybe not. We shall see. At the moment, they are ahead.

They didn’t start off equal. The fact they(Seattle) started with a lineup full of middle six veterans allowed it to make sense to spend to add talent. In Buffalo’s case, it did not till now. They are not at the same point and I did understand your point, just don’t agree with your premise. The Sabres are at least a year behind, if not two and already nipping at their heels. 

[Pimlach]

18 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Both need better GT

That’d be my conclusion 

Exactly.  Some here are ready to hand the Kraken a Stanley Cup. The reality is they are 3 wins better than Buffalo.  

I think Buffalo can improve the numbers simply by putting more focus on their defensive zone play and a few minor additions.  

[Thorny]

6 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Do chickens strut? I know roosters do but I haven't seen a chicken do the arrogant walk. 

We got the picture, though

no harm, no fowl 

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

No, they yell chickmate. 🤡

Boo urns 

[Flashsabre]

2 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Exactly.  Some here are ready to hand the Kraken a Stanley Cup. The reality is they are 3 wins better than Buffalo.  

I think Buffalo can improve the numbers simply by putting more focus on their defensive zone play and a few minor additions.  

I think part of the inflation of Seattle by some is the fact they have manhandled the Sabres pretty easily.

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, PerreaultForever said:

I'm actually really good at chess. We can play sometime if you like. 

There is a difference between "ignoring" an argument/statement and simply disagreeing with it. 

Adams, like all GMs speaks like a politician spouting a company line. I don't listen to what he or any GM says, I look at what they do. 

Are you seriously going to argue that Berekovsky on Cozen's wing wouldn't make us a better team than playing with a rookie? Goaltending is not a deflection, it has been the key issue for this team since they lost Ullmark and it still is the key issue. You are always crapping on Kakko and LaFreniere, so would the Rangers be where they are without the goalie? With our goalies instead of theirs? Think before you type and don't just argue.  

I wish you would. 

[Thorny]

13 minutes ago, Pimlach said:

Exactly.  Some here are ready to hand the Kraken a Stanley Cup. The reality is they are 3 wins better than Buffalo.  

I think Buffalo can improve the numbers simply by putting more focus on their defensive zone play and a few minor additions.  

We can improve it that way, I agree. 

The elephant in the room is still the fact that, putting Levi aside, no one here in their heart of hearts actually acknowledges the other 3 tenders as good goalies. We can just say it - of course we could, and will, improve the position by improving our overall commitment to team D but another thing that would unquestionably help is..inserting a player in goal who provides as much value relative to league average as the players we currently have filling other positions.

Ive seen what Adams can do at F. I know he can accumulate good talent and supplement the talent we have. He’s been exceptional in most areas - it makes the GT exciting and disappointing. I know he can do better - but I’m excited to see him mine that value. It’s not impatience, it’s just the reality that once he decides to actuality take some legit swings there I’m sure he’ll have success. I know he has tried (Murray), but I know he can succeed. 

He sets his own bars of expectation. I expect a lot going forward at the position because he’s proven himself a good GM. It’s ok to actually acquire a *good* goalie.

He knows playoffs are the line next year - I’d be surprised to see a UPL / Comrie tandem 

Edited February 17, 2023 by Thorny

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, Hank said:

I agree with you that he would produce more on Cozens wing this year and the team would be better. I also think Quinn will be better than him, possibly as soon as next year. 

Do you want time make the playoffs this year? Or win playoff rounds next year? It's better letting Quinn learn now.

[Mr. Allen]

How is this about Chychrun?  

[LGR4GM]

Just now, Thorny said:

We can improve it that way, I agree. 

The elephant in the room is still the fact that, putting Levi aside, no one here in their heart of hearts actually acknowledges the other 3 tenders as good goalies. We can just say it - of course we could, and will, improve the position by improving our overall commitment to team D but another thing that would unquestionably help is..inserting a player in goal who provides as much value relative to league average as the players we currently have filling other positions.

Ive seen what Adams can do at F. I know he can accumulate good talent and supplement the talent we have. He’s been exceptional in most areas - it makes the GT exciting and disappointing. I know he can do better - but I’m excited to see him mine that value. It’s not impatience, it’s just the reality that once he decides to actuality take some legit swings there I’m sure he’ll have success. I know he has tried (Murray), but I know he can succeed. 

He sets his own bars of expectation. I expect a lot going F at the position because he’s proven himself a good GM

He knows playoffs are the line next year - I’d be surprised to see a UPL / Comrie tandem 

Agree, the goalies are the biggest current problem area. 

Just now, Mr. Allen said:

How is this about Chychrun?  

[Flashsabre]

1 minute ago, Mr. Allen said:

How is this about Chychrun?  

These are his thoughts on the current Sabres situation😛

Most threads seem to just deteriorate into arguing about things that have nothing to do with the actual topic.

I will be interested to see what thee winning package for Chychrun looks like. LA seems like the slam dunk fit but they can’t find a deal that works.

[dudacek]

36 minutes ago, Thorny said:

We can improve it that way, I agree. 

The elephant in the room is still the fact that, putting Levi aside, no one here in their heart of hearts actually acknowledges the other 3 tenders as good goalies. We can just say it - of course we could, and will, improve the position by improving our overall commitment to team D but another thing that would unquestionably help is..inserting a player in goal who provides as much value relative to league average as the players we currently have filling other positions.

Ive seen what Adams can do at F. I know he can accumulate good talent and supplement the talent we have. He’s been exceptional in most areas - it makes the GT exciting and disappointing. I know he can do better - but I’m excited to see him mine that value. It’s not impatience, it’s just the reality that once he decides to actuality take some legit swings there I’m sure he’ll have success. I know he has tried (Murray), but I know he can succeed. 

He sets his own bars of expectation. I expect a lot going forward at the position because he’s proven himself a good GM. It’s ok to actually acquire a *good* goalie.

He knows playoffs are the line next year - I’d be surprised to see a UPL / Comrie tandem 

This was put in a back room an willfully forgotten about while UPL was benefiting from 11 games of 4 or more goal more.

If only there was a 27-year-old proven #1 with 3 years left on an affordable contract available on a potential buy-low scenario.