Trade targets

[JohnC]

4 minutes ago, dudacek said:

We’re more than halfway through the season and have seen most of what the league has to offer.

Im pretty confident talent is not much of an issue any more except in the crease. We have enough talent - speed and the ability to execute at speed - to keep up with any team in the league.

The issues are mostly consistency, defensive structure and a dab of that abrasive arrogance that defines teams like the Lightning.

Hopefully most of it will come through maturity.

You and I are riding the same bus. Although the ride sometimes get bumpy, the destination is within view. The journey sometimes is enjoyable and sometimes exasperating but without a doubt there is an entertainment value in watching this version of the Sabres. The best move this organization made is getting rid of Krueger and replacing him with Don G. Krueger's version of hockey was simply soul crushing. 

[Thorny]

11 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Quinn and Peterka have played on their off-wings all season.

Then why do they list Quinn on the right in *every* lineup and line rush? 

This is not what I have seen at all. Granted I’ve only seen about half the games. But I think you are mistaken here I’ve seen Quinn on the right every time I can remember. Like every game I’ve watched this season. You are the only poster I ever see consistently write the lineup that way

https://www.nhl.com/sabres/video/quinn-widens-the-lead/t-277437090/c-13889683

he’s playing the right positionally in most every highlight I can find, anyways. Bizarro world I guess if we are seeing it different. I do know him and Peterka were on their opposite sides in Roch last year but as far as I know it’s totally flipped this season. Oh well doesn’t matter anyways 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Thorny

[dudacek]

Just now, Thorny said:

I’m not sure we are “there” on talent, yet. Not if you include defensive ability as part of talent, and why wouldn’t we? Thought it’s often left off. Or lumped into structure. 

A lot of two way play is also natural ability. I think we could say we may have “enough” offensive talent but could perhaps still benefit from defensive talent upgrades, internal or not, and when I say defensive that’s all 3 positions 

Talent is talent, IMO. How it’s applied is another story.

I think the kids are going to continue to improve defensively just like they are improving offensively.

Krebs, Cozens, Peterka, Quinn and Power are fast enough, smart enough, competitive enough and diligent enough that they will become much better at defending as their bodies grow and their brains adapt.

[dudacek]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Then why do they list Quinn on the right in *every* lineup and line rush? 

This is not what I have seen at all. Granted I’ve only seen about half the games. But I think you are mistaken here I’ve seen Quinn on the right every time I can remember. Like every game I’ve watched this season. You are the only poster I ever see consistently write the lineup that way

Why do they list Okposo on the 4th line all the time too, even when he’s skating 15 minutes a night?

All I know is I see Quinn lining up on the left regularly for faceoffs and I usually see him on the left boards when they break out of our zone.

IMO it’s moot any way since the Sabres are constantly rotating on the attack and generally play an F1 system on the forecheck and the backcheck.

 

[Thorny]

16 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Talent is talent, IMO. How it’s applied is another story.

I think the kids are going to continue to improve defensively just like they are improving offensively.

Krebs, Cozens, Peterka, Quinn and Power are fast enough, smart enough, competitive enough and diligent enough that they will become much better at defending as their bodies grow and their brains adapt.

Ya, I’m just not ready to say we are going to be good enough defensively by what we currently have in house. It’ll get more interestingly along the way as we see which specific holes Adams needs to address. It’s just that the definition and use of the term “holes” changes. For a long time by “hole” we meant the presence of an NHL player means it was filled. Now, there’s a hole if we don’t have a reasonably good player. 

I think we will get better defensively by internal improvement, but when the holes we are filling become relative to a team we’d like to be able to compete IN the playoffs, I’m not ready to say we won’t have defensive holes. We are still below average there, lots of question marks. 

The offensive ability is another story 

9 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Why do they list Okposo on the 4th line all the time too, even when he’s skating 15 minutes a night?

All I know is I see Quinn lining up on the left regularly for faceoffs and I usually see him on the left boards when they break out of our zone.

IMO it’s moot any way since the Sabres are constantly rotating on the attack and generally play an F1 system on the forecheck and the backcheck.

 

Because they don’t list lineups by way of playing time, they list them based on position played 

Wingers often line up on opposite sides for D zone draws. I always did that on my higher level teams growing up

Could explain the face off thing and why we often see breakouts work out that way

Say the draw is to the right of the G, if Quinn lines up on the left along with Peterka they are both in lane for zone coverage

Edited January 23, 2023 by Thorny

[dudacek]

5 minutes ago, Thorny said:

 

Because they don’t list lineups by way of playing time, they list them based on position played 

Wingers often line up on opposite sides for D zone draws. I always did that on my higher level teams growing up

Could explain the face off thing and why we often see breakouts work out that way

D- zone they generally stack both wingers to the slot side of the circle.

O-zone they typically lineup the wingers on their off-wing (when they aren’t getting Skinner or Okposo to take the draw).

Like I said earlier, I don’t really think it’s too important the way the Sabres play.

As far as the line-numbering thing goes, the pre-game depth chart rarely reflects the order they play the lines, or the amount of ice time they get. My best guess is that it’s a loose interpretation of how likely each line is to score.

Okposo wasn’t a 4th line winger when he was on the LOG line and he certainly wasn’t last year when he was scoring 20 goals. But he got that label and it’s stuck.

I think most people tend to base it whatever they have the most personal familiarity with, as opposed to what their coach actually does.

[dudacek]

19 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Ya, I’m just not ready to say we are going to be good enough defensively by what we currently have in house. It’ll get more interestingly along the way as we see which specific holes Adams needs to address. It’s just that the definition and use of the term “holes” changes. For a long time by “hole” we meant the presence of an NHL player means it was filled. Now, there’s a hole if we don’t have a reasonably good player. 

I think we will get better defensively by internal improvement, but when the holes we are filling become relative to a team we’d like to be able to compete IN the playoffs, I’m not ready to say we won’t have defensive holes. We are still below average there, lots of question marks. 

This I mostly agree with. I think you are talking about types of players and roster construction to improve what I called “structure” and “consistency.”

My point was simply that the Sabres can now hang with everyone in terms of raw speed and skill, they get beat on the details.

[Taro T]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

All true.

I think Joki, Mitts and Olofsson are being given every opportunity to add themselves to the core.

However, each is a free agent summer of ‘24. The 1st 2 will have arbitration rights, while Victor will be a UFA.

The cap, the progress of younger players in the organization, and the desire to bring in upgrades from outside the organization will affect what happens there just as much as it will with lesser talents like Bryson and Comrie

This organization is not going to be able to keep everyone. Nor, in all likelihood, should they.

Whether those three here get extensions or not is going to come down to whether any of the kids are ready to supplant them or not.  Or if somebody the pro scouts & analytics departments covet somehow become available.  It really is that simple.

Have nearly no doubt thar all will be back next year.  Expect 1 or 2 will be gone the year after that (Jost could be gone too then) but doubt all 3 go.

[Thorny]

7 minutes ago, dudacek said:

This I mostly agree with. I think you are talking about types of players and roster construction to improve what I called “structure” and “consistency.”

My point was simply that the Sabres can now hang with everyone in terms of raw speed and skill, they get beat on the details.

Type, more so, sure, you are probably right. but for arguments’ sake I might still argue potential “upgrade” because goal-differential wise that takes into account both, I think we MAY have room for improvement.

the main thing is the “floor” we are potentially improving from looks to be settling in as hopefully a perennial playoff team soon as next season. I’ve said this before but I think the roster will come most of the way and that some of the last few steps, will ironically be the hardest to traverse for the GM: lots of good teams get in (half), and then the difference between them is often razor thin and the microscope on a few moves even greater. X factors if you will. 

Same thing i was getting at in the Bills thread, that losing at this stage isn’t indicative of personal failure nearly as much as it’s a product of teams that are even better. Holes almost non existent. 

[Taro T]

21 minutes ago, dudacek said:

D- zone they generally stack both wingers to the slot side of the circle.

O-zone they typically lineup the wingers on their off-wing (when they aren’t getting Skinner or Okposo to take the draw).

Like I said earlier, I don’t really think it’s too important the way the Sabres play.

As far as the line-numbering thing goes, the pre-game depth chart rarely reflects the order they play the lines, or the amount of ice time they get. My best guess is that it’s a loose interpretation of how likely each line is to score.

Okposo wasn’t a 4th line winger when he was on the LOG line and he certainly wasn’t last year when he was scoring 20 goals. But he got that label and it’s stuck.

I think most people tend to base it whatever they have the most personal familiarity with, as opposed to what their coach actually does.

O-zone, the D often flip as well as just the wings.

Typically, Quinn is listed as the RW, but there have been a few where he's been listed at LW (& Peterka's listing was adjusted as well).  Those 2 play fairly interchangeably, but they are each at their best when actually going to their off wings.  Noticed that they do tend to get replaced by a W listed at the same side they are listed as playing.  Why Granato lists them & deploys them at their strong side W when both sure seem to be better on the other side is one of the myriad of Q's would love to ask him.

[Thorny]

3 minutes ago, Taro T said:

O-zone, the D often flip as well as just the wings.

Typically, Quinn is listed as the RW, but there have been a few where he's been listed at LW (& Peterka's listing was adjusted as well).  Those 2 play fairly interchangeably, but they are each at their best when actually going to their off wings.  Noticed that they do tend to get replaced by a W listed at the same side they are listed as playing.  Why Granato lists them & deploys them at their strong side W when both sure seem to be better on the other side is one of the myriad of Q's would love to ask him.

I was a bit surprised by it too from Granato when all last year in the ahl the other coach did it the opposite 

[Mustache of God]

I'd be okay with that. Wonder what it would cost.

[Buffalonill]

9 minutes ago, Mustache of God said:

I'd be okay with that. Wonder what it would cost.

 You can obviously cross him off the list because Buffalo doesn't leak anything ..

 For the Hundredth time

[Mustache of God]

45 minutes ago, Buffalonill said:

 You can obviously cross him off the list because Buffalo doesn't leak anything ..

 For the Hundredth time

I guess we should just shut this thread down then since there's apparently zero fun in speculation.

[Brawndo]

Re Fourth Period 

 

[Marvin]

I used to go to TheFourthPeriod.com until I realised that it was Eklund-like with its rumours.  The HFBoards trade page is more reliable and has better thought-out speculation, for Heaven's sake.

[dudacek]

You want to address the Sabres biggest needs in one fell swoop? Without blowing up our cap, or bringing in guys who don’t fit our window?

• Matt Savoie, Unprotected 2023 1st, 1 of Mitts, Olofsson, Jokiharju, plus Eric Portillo and either Asplund or a prospect of similar value

for 

• Chychrun, Lawson Crouse

This assumes the Coyotes focus is maximizing low cost future assets while tanking until their new arena is built.

Coyotes aren’t going to get a better asset than Savoie, or a better first than ours to meet their Chychrun demand. The price they pay for 2 premium assets is Crouse. The other 3 pieces should have enough value to make up the difference. We add Bishop if they need to take on fake salary under the cap.

I think, given what we know about each franchise’s mindset, the deal has merit for both sides.

Thoughts?

Edited January 23, 2023 by dudacek

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

You want to address the Sabres biggest needs in one fell swoop? Without blowing up our cap, or bringing in guys who don’t fit our window?

• Matt Savoie, Unprotected 2023 1st, 1 of Mitts, Olofsson, Jokiharju, plus Eric Portillo and either Asplund or a prospect of similar value

for 

• Chychrun, Lawson Crouse

This assumes the Coyotes focus is maximizing low cost future assets while tanking until their new arena is built.

Coyotes aren’t going to get a better asset than Savoie, or a better first than ours to meet their Chychrun demand. The price they pay for 2 premium assets is Crouse. The other 3 pieces should have enough value to make up the difference. We add Bishop if they need to take on fake salary under the cap.

I think, given what we know about each franchise’s mindset, the deal has merit for both sides.

Thoughts?

no

[Marvin]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

You want to address the Sabres biggest needs in one fell swoop? Without blowing up our cap, or bringing in guys who don’t fit our window?

• Matt Savoie, Unprotected 2023 1st, 1 of Mitts, Olofsson, Jokiharju, plus Eric Portillo and either Asplund or a prospect of similar value

for 

• Chychrun, Lawson Crouse

This assumes the Coyotes focus is maximizing low cost future assets while tanking until their new arena is built.

Coyotes aren’t going to get a better asset than Savoie, or a better first than ours to meet their Chychrun demand. The price they pay for 2 premium assets is Crouse. The other 3 pieces should have enough value to make up the difference. We add Bishop if they need to take on fake salary under the cap.

I think, given what we know about each franchise’s mindset, the deal has merit for both sides.

Thoughts?

They want all of your Buffalo stuff for Chychrun alone.  And Mittlestadt probably needs to be swapped out for Kulich to get Chychrun.  And you need 2 young, excellent pieces, like Quinn and Peterka, for Crouse.

[Mustache of God]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

You want to address the Sabres biggest needs in one fell swoop? Without blowing up our cap, or bringing in guys who don’t fit our window?

• Matt Savoie, Unprotected 2023 1st, 1 of Mitts, Olofsson, Jokiharju, plus Eric Portillo and either Asplund or a prospect of similar value

for 

• Chychrun, Lawson Crouse

This assumes the Coyotes focus is maximizing low cost future assets while tanking until their new arena is built.

Coyotes aren’t going to get a better asset than Savoie, or a better first than ours to meet their Chychrun demand. The price they pay for 2 premium assets is Crouse. The other 3 pieces should have enough value to make up the difference. We add Bishop if they need to take on fake salary under the cap.

I think, given what we know about each franchise’s mindset, the deal has merit for both sides.

Thoughts?

Chychrun feels too expensive for my taste, plus I'm more interested in us finding another Samuelsson type player to balance out Dahlin/Power. The type of player who doesn't have a sexy game but plays sound foundational defense (also the type of player who doesn't make the big $$$). 

I have always liked Crouse's game, he's always stuck out to me when we play them.

[Thorny]

2 hours ago, Brawndo said:

Re Fourth Period 

 

Oh I thought we were going to pay Cozens Dahlin and Power 21 million combined per on LT deals 

Edited January 23, 2023 by Thorny

[dudacek]

57 minutes ago, Marvin said:

They want all of your Buffalo stuff for Chychrun alone.  And Mittlestadt probably needs to be swapped out for Kulich to get Chychrun.  And you need 2 young, excellent pieces, like Quinn and Peterka, for Crouse.

I'm curious when their bluff is going to be called.

No one is paying a Jack Eichel price for Jeff Chychrun. if they were it would have happened. The question is more how long is Arizona willing to wait before taking something less.

I only recall one defenceman in recent memory getting that much and Chychrun is not elite.

Dougie Hamilton got a mid-first and 2 2nds. Hampus Lindholm got a late 1st, 2 2nds and a B prospect. Each is better than Chychrun

The exception was Seth Jones, who got essentially a top 10 pick, a mid-first and a decent prospect.

The only reason they got that high pick was because the deal blew up in Chicago's face, and Jones was more highly regarded than Chychrun at the time of the trade.

 

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

You want to address the Sabres biggest needs in one fell swoop? Without blowing up our cap, or bringing in guys who don’t fit our window?

• Matt Savoie, Unprotected 2023 1st, 1 of Mitts, Olofsson, Jokiharju, plus Eric Portillo and either Asplund or a prospect of similar value

for 

• Chychrun, Lawson Crouse

This assumes the Coyotes focus is maximizing low cost future assets while tanking until their new arena is built.

Coyotes aren’t going to get a better asset than Savoie, or a better first than ours to meet their Chychrun demand. The price they pay for 2 premium assets is Crouse. The other 3 pieces should have enough value to make up the difference. We add Bishop if they need to take on fake salary under the cap.

I think, given what we know about each franchise’s mindset, the deal has merit for both sides.

Thoughts?

Absolutely not! The rebuild strategy that the GM has constantly repeated since he took over the hockey operation is that he wants to broaden the talent base, not deplete it. Again, no!

[thewookie1]

2 hours ago, dudacek said:

You want to address the Sabres biggest needs in one fell swoop? Without blowing up our cap, or bringing in guys who don’t fit our window?

• Matt Savoie, Unprotected 2023 1st, 1 of Mitts, Olofsson, Jokiharju, plus Eric Portillo and either Asplund or a prospect of similar value

for 

• Chychrun, Lawson Crouse

This assumes the Coyotes focus is maximizing low cost future assets while tanking until their new arena is built.

Coyotes aren’t going to get a better asset than Savoie, or a better first than ours to meet their Chychrun demand. The price they pay for 2 premium assets is Crouse. The other 3 pieces should have enough value to make up the difference. We add Bishop if they need to take on fake salary under the cap.

I think, given what we know about each franchise’s mindset, the deal has merit for both sides.

Thoughts?

Easy no, to be honest I don’t even think that would help us all that much. 
 

To me the 2023 1st is untouchable and I’m disinterested in trading Savoie. 
 

Chychrun won’t put up as much offense due to having no powerplay time and Crouse feels to much like a one hit wonder that is having a great year on a bad team akin to Girgensons looking great when he was force fed 1st line minutes early in his career.

[GASabresIUFAN]

45 minutes ago, Thorny said:

Oh I thought we were going to pay Cozens Dahlin and Power 21 million combined per on LT deals 

Try closer to 25 million.