GDT - Sabres @ Blue Jackets - Feb 20, 2022 - 6:00 PM (EST) - MSG-B, WGR, BSOH

[Curt]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

I'm a Sabre fan. I'm getting numb and fatigued watching this team. It seems that most of our discussions are on the same loop with the same criticisms. After watching the Colorada game I got a spark of hope. Then I was brought back to reality after watching the Columbus game against a team that also played a back to back. It's so sad to see games played on the road in front of a full house with a raucous crowd. That's in stark contrast to games played in a mostly empty home arena with a yawning crowd. 

Next year, a few more young players will be added to the roster that will continue the rebuild. That's a good thing. The organization still needs to do more to regain its credibility to the many fans that have walked away. What this owner and organization need to understand is that systemic losing is corrosive for the players and the vanishing fans. The organization has to demonstrate some urgency this offseason.

 

 

14 minutes ago, Flashsabre said:

Fully agree. I need to see a couple moves to start to push this team forward. A legit goalie, a good defensive RHD that can play top 4 and another scoring winger.

The kids will help replacing the expendables but they need to show they are serious about winning next season.

You guys realize that they started a rebuild 6 months ago, right?  It might not be time to push in the chips just yet.  I don’t see them adding any significant veteran players this offseason.  Maybe a goalie, maybe a RD.  I have an extremely tough time envisioning anything more than that, and I doubt they would really be high level players.

I know that they have been bad for a long time, but you have to view the team in terms of where they are right now.

[LGR4GM]

1 hour ago, Believer said:

Read Granato’s post game comment… 

““You can splice it up lots and lots of different ways, but we looked tired. We just looked tired," said head coach Don Granato following the loss. "It was tired plays and tired mistakes. We were physically tired and mentally tired, and we couldn’t finish simple stuff. The bottom line is we have to learn how to play through that, and we didn’t adjust to not feeling your game.”

Back-to-back game and travel might account for some of it… but their 1st period effort was incomprehensible… Unmotivated or unprepared or both… Granato adjusted his lines trying to get a spark in the 2nd and 3rd periods… but it was too late… He sent a team out to start the game that didn’t come to play and didn’t want or expect to win… Expectations or conditioning… Something is amiss in their process… They are learning the wrong lesson… accepting defeat under the cover of just another rebuild year…

 

They aren't but we will keep hearing this until they have enough talent to win. 

[PASabreFan]

Too lazy one night, too tired the next?

The coach is grasping. Hopefully he has some real insights and answers he's hiding from everyone.

[thewookie1]

26 minutes ago, PASabreFan said:

Too lazy one night, too tired the next?

The coach is grasping. Hopefully he has some real insights and answers he's hiding from everyone.

There isn't a good coach that exists who would give the full truth to the media.

"Well, part of my team is arguably AHL/barely NHL level in skill, my 1D was out, our 1G had an off night coupled with bad turnovers by our skaters; oh and also they were tired so that made even our better players look worse and made our bad players look horrid. My team has a good amount of raw skill that shows itself at times but creating a consistent showing of it requires discipline, experience and learning to play through the fatigue without turning the puck over continuously."

A good coach never throws individual players under the bus unless they know they can handle it and it won't create even further problems.

[Buffalonill]

2 hours ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

Eh.  You get used to it.  I hadn't ridden in about 20 years.  Then my office location moved about 14 years ago and was about 7 miles from my house.  I tried riding it and it wasn't that bad so I started riding to work.  While I was in that location I rode to work most of the time.  My office changed again and was about 16 miles and that was a little too long to do every day (32 miles round trip).  I tried it several times but couldn't do it consistently.  And yeah, I have a fat ass too but if I didn't ride it would be fatter.  😉

Thats a huge accomplishment nice 🙂

haha you're probably way fit though 

 

[Doohickie]

3 minutes ago, Buffalonill said:

Thats a huge accomplishment nice 🙂

Thanks

6 minutes ago, Buffalonill said:

haha you're probably way fit though

Nah.  I struggle with my weight.  I'm borderline obese.  I'm sure I'm healthier than if I didn't ride, but I've got a long way to go.

[JohnC]

2 hours ago, Curt said:

 

You guys realize that they started a rebuild 6 months ago, right?  It might not be time to push in the chips just yet.  I don’t see them adding any significant veteran players this offseason.  Maybe a goalie, maybe a RD.  I have an extremely tough time envisioning anything more than that, and I doubt they would really be high level players.

I know that they have been bad for a long time, but you have to view the team in terms of where they are right now.

I disagree with you that the rebuild started 6 months ago. It actually started more than a few years back when Botterill took over for Murray. When Botts took over he said his mission statement was to restock the system and not gratuitously throw aways assets for short term gain. If you look at the current roster the young core was mostly brought in during his tenure. In fact, if Botts would have agreed to Pegula's request of basically dissolving the scouting department, he would likely still be our GM. 

Don't misunderstand what I previously stated. I'm aware that KA is going full throttle rebuild since he took over. I do believe that this franchise needed to do a major re-set. My main point is that with all of our assets that include cap space and an abundance of draft picks this franchise has the wherewithal to bring in one or two good players who could accelerate the rebuild that includes the addition of some of the high-end prospects already in the system. 

I'm not arguing to abandon the rebuild strategy. What I'm arguing for is a demonstration of more urgency in being proactive to upgrade the talent base and hopefully stop the diminishing fan base from further fading away. When you have only 4000-6000 people attending games having a slow-walking approach to becoming more competitive doesn't seem like the smart thing to do from a competitive and business standpoint. 

The Sabres are clearly focusing on adding young talent. And that is exactly what they are doing. But that doesn't mean that other teams are standing pat and allowing the Sabres to pass them by. Teams at our low level and teams that are at a higher level are constantly working to upgrade their rosters. So just because our team is getting better doesn't mean that we are passing them and moving up the ranks. In my opinion in the offseason this front office has to be more creative and aggressive in bringing in talent. The pace is simply too slow for me.  

[Thwomp!]

18 hours ago, Carmel Corn said:

The "Nat" is actually a nice arena....used to make the 3 hour drive over from Indy to see games there.  Would go to German Village for Schmidt's buffet and then the game.

Nationwide Arena is nice.  People are nice.  I've been there for several events and I've never seen an issue.  There were lots of Sabres fans there yesterday.

[Thwomp!]

18 hours ago, LGR4GM said:

But is that a 24oz or a 16oz?

16 unfortunately, decent variety though.

[Thwomp!]

4 hours ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

I've got nothing against them.  I like the jerseys they wore yesterday, kind of a Civil War steampunk motif.

They set off an actual cannon in the arena when the Jackets score.  So at least I got to hear that 7 times.  It's a cool celebration item. 

[Curt]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

I disagree with you that the rebuild started 6 months ago. It actually started more than a few years back when Botterill took over for Murray. When Botts took over he said his mission statement was to restock the system and not gratuitously throw aways assets for short term gain. If you look at the current roster the young core was mostly brought in during his tenure. In fact, if Botts would have agreed to Pegula's request of basically dissolving the scouting department, he would likely still be our GM. 

Don't misunderstand what I previously stated. I'm aware that KA is going full throttle rebuild since he took over. I do believe that this franchise needed to do a major re-set. My main point is that with all of our assets that include cap space and an abundance of draft picks this franchise has the wherewithal to bring in one or two good players who could accelerate the rebuild that includes the addition of some of the high-end prospects already in the system. 

I'm not arguing to abandon the rebuild strategy. What I'm arguing for is a demonstration of more urgency in being proactive to upgrade the talent base and hopefully stop the diminishing fan base from further fading away. When you have only 4000-6000 people attending games having a slow-walking approach to becoming more competitive doesn't seem like the smart thing to do from a competitive and business standpoint. 

The Sabres are clearly focusing on adding young talent. And that is exactly what they are doing. But that doesn't mean that other teams are standing pat and allowing the Sabres to pass them by. Teams at our low level and teams that are at a higher level are constantly working to upgrade their rosters. So just because our team is getting better doesn't mean that we are passing them and moving up the ranks. In my opinion in the offseason this front office has to be more creative and aggressive in bringing in talent. The pace is simply too slow for me.  

Botterill sort of undertook a rebuild, more of a retool, when he started, but it certainly has not been a continuous rebuild from Botterill through to today.

They just traded their two best forwards, their top defenseman via useage, and lost their starting goalie in free agency.  It was the end of something and the start of something else, whatever label you want to put on it.  Give the new thing some time before you try to rush it.

[LGR4GM]

2 hours ago, JohnC said:

I disagree with you that the rebuild started 6 months ago. It actually started more than a few years back when Botterill took over for Murray. When Botts took over he said his mission statement was to restock the system and not gratuitously throw aways assets for short term gain. If you look at the current roster the young core was mostly brought in during his tenure. In fact, if Botts would have agreed to Pegula's request of basically dissolving the scouting department, he would likely still be our GM. 

Don't misunderstand what I previously stated. I'm aware that KA is going full throttle rebuild since he took over. I do believe that this franchise needed to do a major re-set. My main point is that with all of our assets that include cap space and an abundance of draft picks this franchise has the wherewithal to bring in one or two good players who could accelerate the rebuild that includes the addition of some of the high-end prospects already in the system. 

I'm not arguing to abandon the rebuild strategy. What I'm arguing for is a demonstration of more urgency in being proactive to upgrade the talent base and hopefully stop the diminishing fan base from further fading away. When you have only 4000-6000 people attending games having a slow-walking approach to becoming more competitive doesn't seem like the smart thing to do from a competitive and business standpoint. 

The Sabres are clearly focusing on adding young talent. And that is exactly what they are doing. But that doesn't mean that other teams are standing pat and allowing the Sabres to pass them by. Teams at our low level and teams that are at a higher level are constantly working to upgrade their rosters. So just because our team is getting better doesn't mean that we are passing them and moving up the ranks. In my opinion in the offseason this front office has to be more creative and aggressive in bringing in talent. The pace is simply too slow for me.  

As noted previously, adding two young impact players in 1 offseason would be difficult without giving up lots of assets. UFA might yield a single player but that's a gamble and trades will involve multiple pieces. Is Rosen, Vegas 2022 1st, and say Jankowski worth it to acquire a Toffoli? 

[dudacek]

3 minutes ago, Curt said:

Botterill sort of undertook a rebuild, more of a retool, when he started, but it certainly has not been a continuous rebuild from Botterill through to today.

They just traded their two best forwards, their top defenseman via useage, and lost their starting goalie in free agency.  It was the end of something and the start of something else, whatever label you want to put on it.  Give the new thing some time before you try to rush it.

Three best forwards and best defensive pair, as well as starting goalie.

Didn’t replace any of them until Tuch showed up at Christmas.

It was as thorough a roster tank as any.

[Curt]

15 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Three best forwards and best defensive pair, as well as starting goalie.

Didn’t replace any of them until Tuch showed up at Christmas.

It was as thorough a roster tank as any.

I guess that’s the beauty of being so bad.  You can cut the top line, D pair, and starting goalie off of your roster and actually improve the following year.

[Digger]

6 hours ago, The Ghost of Yuri said:

Nah.  I struggle with my weight.  I'm borderline obese.  I'm sure I'm healthier than if I didn't ride, but I've got a long way to go.

The chicken on your head is very slimming though.  ☺️

[inkman]

9 minutes ago, Digger said:

The chicken on your head is very slimming though.  ☺️

Chicken heads get lots of exercise 

[Thorny]

6 hours ago, JohnC said:

I disagree with you that the rebuild started 6 months ago. It actually started more than a few years back when Botterill took over for Murray. When Botts took over he said his mission statement was to restock the system and not gratuitously throw aways assets for short term gain. If you look at the current roster the young core was mostly brought in during his tenure. In fact, if Botts would have agreed to Pegula's request of basically dissolving the scouting department, he would likely still be our GM. 

Don't misunderstand what I previously stated. I'm aware that KA is going full throttle rebuild since he took over. I do believe that this franchise needed to do a major re-set. My main point is that with all of our assets that include cap space and an abundance of draft picks this franchise has the wherewithal to bring in one or two good players who could accelerate the rebuild that includes the addition of some of the high-end prospects already in the system. 

I'm not arguing to abandon the rebuild strategy. What I'm arguing for is a demonstration of more urgency in being proactive to upgrade the talent base and hopefully stop the diminishing fan base from further fading away. When you have only 4000-6000 people attending games having a slow-walking approach to becoming more competitive doesn't seem like the smart thing to do from a competitive and business standpoint. 

The Sabres are clearly focusing on adding young talent. And that is exactly what they are doing. But that doesn't mean that other teams are standing pat and allowing the Sabres to pass them by. Teams at our low level and teams that are at a higher level are constantly working to upgrade their rosters. So just because our team is getting better doesn't mean that we are passing them and moving up the ranks. In my opinion in the offseason this front office has to be more creative and aggressive in bringing in talent. The pace is simply too slow for me.  

Excellent post. 

That so many of the young assets are Botterill’s is the kicker 

[JohnC]

On 2/21/2022 at 4:11 PM, LGR4GM said:

As noted previously, adding two young impact players in 1 offseason would be difficult without giving up lots of assets. UFA might yield a single player but that's a gamble and trades will involve multiple pieces. Is Rosen, Vegas 2022 1st, and say Jankowski worth it to acquire a Toffoli? 

I'm not arguing for squandering our assets for a short-term gain at the expense of a more substantive longer-term upgrade. How did the Sabres acquire Jokiharju? It was done in a trade with Chicago for Nylander. That was a terrific deal for us. The point I am stressing is that with our good cap situation and with our abundance of draft picks for the next couple of years some of those assets could be used as chips to bring in a quality player or two. That additional piece or two will make a difference when added to those in our prospect pool who are ready to move up to the big club. 

With respect to your proposed trade for Toffoli my response is absolutely not!!!! Toffoli will be 30 yrs old and he doesn't fit in with our time scheme to get better. I'm promoting a judicious use of our assets---not a reckless use of them. 

 

On 2/21/2022 at 4:30 PM, Curt said:

I guess that’s the beauty of being so bad.  You can cut the top line, D pair, and starting goalie off of your roster and actually improve the following year.

Last year's team was a bad team coached by an outdated coach whose team quit on him. When you use last year's team as your baseline and talk about improvement you are not offering high praise. 

In general, I don't think our perspectives diverge much. Where I slightly disagree with you is that I would like to see more creativity and aggressiveness to upgrade this roster this offseason. The Sabres with their good cap situation and draft assets are in a better position to do so than most teams are in.  Our positions are more about pace than differences in approach.  

[LGR4GM]

26 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Last year's team was a bad team coached by an outdated coach whose team quit on him. When you use last year's team as your baseline and talk about improvement you are not offering high praise. 

In general, I don't think our perspectives diverge much. Where I slightly disagree with you is that I would like to see more creativity and aggressiveness to upgrade this roster this offseason. The Sabres with their good cap situation and draft assets are in a better position to do so than most teams are in.  Our positions are more about pace than differences in approach.  

Trading assets to accelerate a rebuild is a vastly different approach from draft and develop. 

Edited February 22, 2022 by LGR4GM

[JohnC]

13 minutes ago, LGR4GM said:

Trading assets to accelerate a rebuild is a vastly different approach from draft and develop. 

No it is not! It can be complementary. There are a variety of avenues that all teams use to improve their rosters. What you are suggesting is that the Sabres should only use only one avenue (draft and develop) and foreclose other options to get better. That is akin to using one arm in a fight when your opponent is using both of his arms to kick the dumb asssss who is self-destructively limiting himself. That makes no bloody sense!

[Pimlach]

16 hours ago, Curt said:

I guess that’s the beauty of being so bad.  You can cut the top line, D pair, and starting goalie off of your roster and actually improve the following year.

You lost your argument right here. ^

Any improvement we have made is from replacing Krueger with Granato.  That and a few other teams like Montreal falling have lifted us in the standings by a hair.  The reality is we haven’t even played a competitive game against the expansion team.   We are now behind Detroit and Ottawa and there is only one team in our conference that is definitely worse than us right now.  
 

To actually improve next season we need to add a reliable NHL goalie to play with UPL next season.  Get better in net and we will be more competitive.  We need help on defense and a solid vet RHD would help the group. 

If we do nothing but add our 2 or 3 top rookies to the lineup next year we can expect nothing more than another bottom 6 finish.  A few trades and acquisitions can be made without sacrificing the future.  We don’t have to make this another 3-4 year project.   

No other team in this modern era (or in NHL history) has failed to rebuild a team in 11 years.  Too many smart hockey fans like you are are trying to justify the past by projecting it into the future.   Adams must do better and it doesn’t have to take so long.  

Do you think Montreal will lose for 11 years?   They will most likely be back in 3 to 4, maybe sooner.  

[Thorny]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

No it is not! It can be complementary. There are a variety of avenues that all teams use to improve their rosters. What you are suggesting is that the Sabres should only use only one avenue (draft and develop) and foreclose other options to get better. That is akin to using one arm in a fight when your opponent is using both of his arms to kick the dumb asssss who is self-destructively limiting himself. That makes no bloody sense!

People felt the hot stove of the Murray accelerated rebuild and have now turned the heat off completely, retreating to the equally extreme (but on the opposite end) desire to hoard picks and prospects.  The suggestion of even a single upgrade or two for now is met with “that’s not draft and develop.”

In reality, there’s a healthy middle ground, like you have been alluding to 

Edited February 22, 2022 by Thorny

[dudacek]

3 minutes ago, Thorny said:

People felt the hot stove of the Murray accelerated rebuild and now have retreated to the equally extreme (but on the opposite end) desire to completely hoard picks and prospects.  The suggestion of even a single upgrade or two for now is met with “that’s not draft and develop.”

In reality, there’s a healthy middle ground, like you have been alluding to 

Absolutely.

The way I see it, the Sabres window is open for the duration of Power/Dahlin's prime.

The focus should be on investing our assets on developing/getting/keeping players who support that.

The big picture cost is relevant, the means is not.

[Pimlach]

6 minutes ago, Thorny said:

People felt the hot stove of the Murray accelerated rebuild and now have retreated to the equally extreme (but on the opposite end) desire to completely hoard picks and prospects.  The suggestion of even a single upgrade or two for now is met with “that’s not draft and develop.”

In reality, there’s a healthy middle ground, like you have been alluding to 

Yes indeed.  Murray was a very poor selection to rebuild the team.   I am not suggesting that Adams pull a Murray and purge assets and gut Rochester, but he has to take a few steps to help pull this team up in the standings.  If not the new core may have the same fate as the old core.  

The last really good Sabres team was built by draft and develop, but was bolstered by the savvy acquisition of

players like Drury, Briere, Teppo, Dumont, Grier, etc. 

 

[Thorny]

10 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Absolutely.

The way I see it, the Sabres window is open for the duration of Power/Dahlin's prime.

The focus should be on investing our assets on developing/getting/keeping players who support that.

The big picture cost is relevant, the means is not.

It’s a difficult balancing act. The window was also once open through the duration of our former two #2 overalls’ primes - but if you overwater or underwater, over expose or under expose what you are trying to grow, as we have seen: that prime may not ever come to fruition in the environment we want it to. 

The future we see coming must be actively nurtured or it may not come at all. The primes of Dahlin and Power must be grown in a healthy environment.

Edited February 22, 2022 by Thorny