Dreger: Eichel situation may be shifting, multiple teams involved

[K-9]

39 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Not for nothing: Cappuccino is a world-leading proponent of ADR surgery. He’s practically an evangelist for it.

So the fact that he recommends against it here is … quite something. I’m not sure what that something is, tbh. But it’s remarkable.

I’m not sure that advocacy for ADR in the lumbar region automatically equates to advocacy for cervical ADR. The former is far more common and approved by insurance companies. The latter carries more inherent risk apparently. 

Edited October 13, 2021 by K-9

[Curt]

1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

Suffice to say: I’m not attacking the guy’s character, integrity, honesty, etc.

These things are far from binary. He’s acting on behalf of the Sabres, assuredly within the bounds of professional standards and ethics.

Absolutely not, for reasons stated above. This sort of activity goes on all the time. All the time.

Thanks for clarifying.  My apologies for the off base accusation.

[Cheektorado]

58 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I’m not sure that advocacy for ADR in the lumbar region automatically equates to advocacy for cervical ADR. The former is far more common and approved by insurance companies. The latter carries more inherent risk apparently. 

I worked my entire career for Synthes (a medical manufacturing company that I have read that Dr Cappuccino has used in the past).  I actually built equipment that manufactured the Synthes Pro Disc system.

Cervical and Lumbar disc replacements are 2 separate beasts.  From everything I learned the higher up the Cervical vertebrate the more issues can happen.  Please take this with a grain of salt as that's just what we heard from the Bio=Engineers with worked hand in hand with.  If anyone is interested in what the implants look like and how they are used I found a video of the stuff we made.  Competitor devices are similar.  My engineering/tech friends and I actually got to do a Disc Replacement on fake bones in a training session that our company uses to train doctors.  It was pretty cool.

 

Edited October 14, 2021 by Cheektorado

[K-9]

2 minutes ago, Cheektorado said:

I worked my entire career for Synthes (a medical manufacturing company that I have read that Dr Cappuccino has used in the past).  I actually built equipment that manufactured the Synthes Pro Disc system.

Cervical and Lumbar disc replacements are 2 separate beasts.  From everything I learned the higher up the Cervix the more issues can happen.  Please take this with a grain of salt as that's just what we heard from the Bio=Engineers with worked hand in hand with.  If anyone is interested in what the implants look like and how they are used I found a video of the stuff we made.  Competitor devices are similar.  My engineering/tech friends and I actually got to do a Disc Replacement on fake bones in a training session that our company uses to train doctors.  It was pretty cool.

 

Fantastic info. Thanks for sharing this. It’s amazing what medical science can design and engineer. 

[kas23]

3 hours ago, That Aud Smell said:

Why not? Someone paid for his opinion in this matter. Namely, the Sabres (PSE) paid for his opinion. He’s not a neutral. He’s a company man, albeit a highly credentialed professional (whose opinion can’t be bought (🙄)).

Per the CBA, though, it sounds like his word may be final as an initial matter? And I read that there’s some sort of grievance procedure to challenge that determination. Curious as to why that’s not been pursued.

The lack of an official grievance filed is extremely telling. In fact, it’s more revealing than what has been publicly said up to this point. If filed, it’s highly likely Jack will lose. Why? Because the NHL/NHLPA panel of experts (despite Brisson saying other teams are ok with the ADR) will probably uniformly side with the Sabres. But, so what if he loses? It would probably close the door on Jack going ahead with the surgery and trying to sue the Sabres once/if his contract is voided after the fact. He’s keeping the going rogue option open. 

[Wyldnwoody44]

5 minutes ago, Cheektorado said:

I worked my entire career for Synthes (a medical manufacturing company that I have read that Dr Cappuccino has used in the past).  I actually built equipment that manufactured the Synthes Pro Disc system.

Cervical and Lumbar disc replacements are 2 separate beasts.  From everything I learned the higher up the Cervix the more issues can happen.  Please take this with a grain of salt as that's just what we heard from the Bio=Engineers with worked hand in hand with.  If anyone is interested in what the implants look like and how they are used I found a video of the stuff we made.  Competitor devices are similar.  My engineering/tech friends and I actually got to do a Disc Replacement on fake bones in a training session that our company uses to train doctors.  It was pretty cool.

 

😂😂

[K-9]

1 minute ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

😂😂

It’s like that old Joan Rivers joke about the gynecologist: “Dr. Goldfinger at your cervix.” 😂

[Cheektorado]

3 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Fantastic info. Thanks for sharing this. It’s amazing what medical science can design and engineer. 

You got to go work somewhere and doing this was pretty rewarding knowing you help people regain their quality of life.  I even got some screws put in me from a line I use to lead years earlier.  I recently retired (sale of the company and part of a downsizing us old expensive guys) after working there for 33 years.

4 minutes ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

😂😂

That is a classic autocorrect!  I got to tell friends about this one!

[Wyldnwoody44]

14 minutes ago, Cheektorado said:

You got to go work somewhere and doing this was pretty rewarding knowing you help people regain their quality of life.  I even got some screws put in me from a line I use to lead years earlier.  I recently retired (sale of the company and part of a downsizing us old expensive guys) after working there for 33 years.

That is a classic autocorrect!  I got to tell friends about this one!

I'm at work and this has already been shared 😂😂 very fitting for the evening 

[Cheektorado]

2 minutes ago, Wyldnwoody44 said:

I'm at work and this has already been shared 😂😂 very fitting for the evening 

Glad I could provide a chuckle.

[dudacek]

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

I don’t think you mean to impugn his character, but all the same, you are saying that he arrived at a determination based on what the Sabres want and not what’s best for the treatment of the player. That also implies that even if Dr. Cappuccino would recommend ADR, that he would say otherwise, as if he’s precluded from his own independent findings.  I just don’t buy that. 
 

 

Yet you have no problem assigning similar behaviour to Elliott Friedman. 🤔

[SwampD]

46 minutes ago, Cheektorado said:

I worked my entire career for Synthes (a medical manufacturing company that I have read that Dr Cappuccino has used in the past).  I actually built equipment that manufactured the Synthes Pro Disc system.

Cervical and Lumbar disc replacements are 2 separate beasts.  From everything I learned the higher up the Cervical vertebrate the more issues can happen.  Please take this with a grain of salt as that's just what we heard from the Bio=Engineers with worked hand in hand with.  If anyone is interested in what the implants look like and how they are used I found a video of the stuff we made.  Competitor devices are similar.  My engineering/tech friends and I actually got to do a Disc Replacement on fake bones in a training session that our company uses to train doctors.  It was pretty cool.

 

I’m choosing this over fusion any day.

[PromoTheRobot]

3 hours ago, That Aud Smell said:

He’s not Eichel’s treating doctor. He’s the team’s independent medical examiner (or something along that line). He’s not treating Eichel; he’s protecting the team.

Explain that, please.

[PromoTheRobot]

2 hours ago, That Aud Smell said:

Not for nothing: Cappuccino is a world-leading proponent of ADR surgery. He’s practically an evangelist for it.

So the fact that he recommends against it here is … quite something. I’m not sure what that something is, tbh. But it’s remarkable.

Well Dr. C might evangelize ADR for regular folks at different areas of the spine. He might have another opinion whether ADR can withstand the rigors of the NHL where Jack needs to have it.

Edited October 14, 2021 by PromoTheRobot

[That Aud Smell]

2 hours ago, Pimlach said:

They paid for Dr C’s opinion and they are following it, and he has high credibility.  Do you really think they told him what to say?  He would probably not ever engage in that kind of a deal.   If he tells Terry (Kim) and Adams to allow the ADR don’t you think they would have?   

As far as I can tell, they paid Cappuccino *to provide* an opinion - there’s a difference. 

I do not think the Sabres told him what to say.

He most certainly would not engage in that kind of deal.

None of that negates what I’ve said.

1 hour ago, K-9 said:

I don’t think you mean to impugn his character, but all the same, you are saying that he arrived at a determination based on what the Sabres want and not what’s best for the treatment of the player. That also implies that even if Dr. Cappuccino would recommend ADR, that he would say otherwise, as if he’s precluded from his own independent findings.  I just don’t buy that. 

Again, he’s not Eichel’s treating physician. He’s a team physician, hired by the team, to provide a determination on behalf of the team. If he were Eichel’s personal doctor (he’s not), maybe he would have agreed to do an ADR.

[PromoTheRobot]

13 minutes ago, dudacek said:

Yet you have no problem assigning similar behaviour to Elliott Friedman. 🤔

Friedmann's works speaks for itself. His reporting on the Eichel matter seems to come from one direction.

[That Aud Smell]

5 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Explain that, please.

Protecting was a mite strong there. But not overly. He provided his determination on behalf of the Sabres relative to a player-asset that the Sabres have (own (😮)).

1 minute ago, PromoTheRobot said:

Well Dr. C might evangelize ADR for regular folks. He might have another opinion whether ADR can withstand the rigors of the NHL.

Entirely possible. And/or maybe Eichel’s presentation is such that Cappuccino doesn’t see how ADR would work for him.

[Doohickie]

6 hours ago, GASabresIUFAN said:

However if 4-5 teams are willing to assume the risk of the $ and the surgery, it’s probably time to take the best deal and get this drama over with.

Make sure you get 4 pieces to save face even if 2 are contingent and move on 

That's probably the hangup:  None of those 4-5 teams are offering anything of value, I bet.

[Doohickie]

3 hours ago, K-9 said:

Great question regarding the CBA and why Eichel hasn’t filed a grievance. Curious indeed.

Because no credible doctor can really sell the position that Jack should get the ADR.

[Andrew Amerk]

4 minutes ago, Doohickie said:

Because no credible doctor can really sell the position that Jack should get the ADR.

Right now, John is driving around with one of those oval decals on the back of his vehicle that says ADR. 

I saw it and assumed it meant he went to the Adirondacks. 

[Doohickie]

1 hour ago, Cheektorado said:

 

That's simply frightening.

[Doohickie]

38 minutes ago, That Aud Smell said:

Again, he’s not Eichel’s treating physician. He’s a team physician, hired by the team, to provide a determination on behalf of the team. If he were Eichel’s personal doctor (he’s not), maybe he would have agreed to do an ADR.

I would hope the party paying him does not influence his determination.  And really, I would expect him to recommend against it for the same he recommended against it when the Sabres asked:  That there is a chance of very severe injury to Jack in the event of failure.

7 minutes ago, Andrew Amerk said:

Right now, John is driving around with one of those oval decals on the back of his vehicle that says ADR. 

I saw it and assumed it meant he went to the Adirondacks. 

[K-9]

1 hour ago, dudacek said:

Yet you have no problem assigning similar behaviour to Elliott Friedman. 🤔

Huh?

[K-9]

1 hour ago, That Aud Smell said:

As far as I can tell, they paid Cappuccino *to provide* an opinion - there’s a difference. 

I do not think the Sabres told him what to say.

He most certainly would not engage in that kind of deal.

None of that negates what I’ve said.

Again, he’s not Eichel’s treating physician. He’s a team physician, hired by the team, to provide a determination on behalf of the team. If he were Eichel’s personal doctor (he’s not), maybe he would have agreed to do an ADR.

And, again, you insist on implying that he provided a determination based upon what the team wanted  not based on his own assessment of the injury. Are you of the opinion that he didn’t consult the images and other records? That he didn’t consult with the doctors charged with treating him? He just made a medical determination based on what his employer needed to hear? 

[Doohickie]

...wash, rinse, repeat....